11 ms·

I have seen career women kind of jokingly say "I need a wife." I was struck by the fact that Alex's mother, whom some people here are vilifying, managed to have

by Mz 9y ago

I have seen career women kind of jokingly say "I need a wife." I was struck by the fact that Alex's mother, whom some people here are vilifying, managed to have a serious career like a man because she had Lola at home to do all the "women's work." This is mostly being overlooked in discussion and I didn't know how to bring it up myself. I appreciate you remarking upon it.

prawn 9y ago
You might find the following book interesting - my wife recommends it to many people. It's by Australian political writer Annabel Crabb. The Wife Drought - Why women need wives, and men need lives https://penguin.com.au/books/the-wife-drought-9780857984289 https://penguin.com.au/books/the-wife-drought-9780857984289 "'I need a wife' -- It’s a common joke among women juggling work and family. But it’s not actually a joke. Having a spouse who takes care of things at home is a Godsend on the domestic front. It’s a potent economic asset on the work front. And it’s an advantage enjoyed – even in our modern society – by vastly more men than women."
- atourgates 9y ago
  In the US - the number of stay at home dads is definitely growing (doubling between 1989 and 2012), but even in 2012, only 21% of those are voluntarily staying at home to take care of kids, while the majority are either disabled, or can't find work for another reason. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/06/05/growing-number-of-dads-home-with-the-kids/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/06/05/growing-number-of-...
  - prawn 9y ago
    Can't remember where, but I saw a stat recently implying that (on average) even when the unemployed father was the primary carer of children, the working mother still put in more time doing domestic chores, etc.
sillysaurus3 9y ago
As a male, I'd personally prefer to live a life filled with traditional housewife work. Kids are fun, and I'd like raising them. I like cooking. Cleaning is pretty fun. More than that, though, employment sucks. If you keep me fed, clothed, and with an internet connection, I'd be happy as a clam, even spending eight hours a day doing nothing but housework. I sometimes wonder if there are others who feel this way, especially women who are mostly forced to work nowadays. There's a strange sort of situation: In the past, women were forced to be housewives, which was awful. Nobody should be forced to be something they don't want to be. But now that women have the ability to do mostly whatever a man can do, neither men nor women really have the option of just "being a housewife." We kind of both have to work. I wonder if it would be better if, as a family unit, one person decides to do the housewife-type stuff, and the other decides to pursue a career? You could even switch off after a few years. That'd be a pretty ideal life for me, I think. But again, in most marriages, both people have to work.
- throwaway9980 9y ago
  It often feels like two income households are counter productive. Sure, we make more money, but it feels like 2x the dollars chasing 1.5x the pie out in the world. And then you have to pay for childcare. As for the household work, I was just telling someone today how much I miss being able to work all the time. I love my kids and they come first, but it's a sacrifice to for me not to work 12+ hour days.
  - yakult 9y ago
    As with almost all optimization problems, applying twice the resources (in this case, work hours) won't bring you back twice the (net) bacon, due to diminishing returns. However, I think on net it is still more economically productive, at least in a large portion of cases. It's unlikely that housework and childcare would optimally take up a full 50% of our entire reservoir of workable-hours, especially in the age of household appliances and childcare centres.
    - throwaway9980 9y ago
Chathamization 9y ago
It's not uncommon to find situations like that in some areas. Families where both parents have well paying and intensive careers, and they hire a live-in domestic servant that ends up being somewhat of a substitute parent.
Kholo 9y ago
Camille Paglia is a someone worth paying attention too on the changing roles of men and women, on what we loose and what we gain - https://www.c-span.org/video/?425137-2/camille-paglia-discusses-free-women-free-men https://www.c-span.org/video/?425137-2/camille-paglia-discus...
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
I'm not vilifying her because she found a way of succeeding in male-dominated world. I'm vilifying her because she kept a slave that she abused horribly. This story could have been a heartwarming tale of a non-traditional family if the parents weren't basically monsters towards Lola.
- Mz 9y ago
  FWIW, I went and checked your comments and nothing you said was what I was talking about. I don't think your remarks about the mother had even been made when I made my comment. There are people who are talking about the terrible thing the mother did when her own father wanted to punish her for lying and she said "Lola will take my punishment." Why vilify her and not her father, who made Lola a slave to begin with, who decided lashing was an appropriate punishment for lying and who went along with his daughter's suggestion that Lola could take the punishment? What teenager wouldn't want some means to get out of abusive treatment from their parent of that sort? Why is this so damning of her instead of her father?
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    > FWIW, I went and checked your comments and nothing you said was what I was talking about. I don't think your remarks about the mother had even been made when I made my comment. I'm talking about what's in the article we're discussing. If you were talking about one specific incident only, you should have said that. If the mother isn't responsible because her father was abusive, why assume that her father was responsible either? Maybe his parents were also abusive. The cycle of abuse is an awful thing, but adults must take responsibility for their own actions.
    - Mz 9y ago
      For the record, I think you are misunderstanding my point.

by Mz 9y ago

prawn 9y ago

You might find the following book interesting - my wife recommends it to many people. It's by Australian political writer Annabel Crabb. The Wife Drought - Why women need wives, and men need lives https://penguin.com.au/books/the-wife-drought-9780857984289 https://penguin.com.au/books/the-wife-drought-9780857984289 "'I need a wife' -- It’s a common joke among women juggling work and family. But it’s not actually a joke. Having a spouse who takes care of things at home is a Godsend on the domestic front. It’s a potent economic asset on the work front. And it’s an advantage enjoyed – even in our modern society – by vastly more men than women."

atourgates 9y ago
In the US - the number of stay at home dads is definitely growing (doubling between 1989 and 2012), but even in 2012, only 21% of those are voluntarily staying at home to take care of kids, while the majority are either disabled, or can't find work for another reason. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/06/05/growing-number-of-dads-home-with-the-kids/ http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/06/05/growing-number-of-...
- prawn 9y ago
  Can't remember where, but I saw a stat recently implying that (on average) even when the unemployed father was the primary carer of children, the working mother still put in more time doing domestic chores, etc.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

As a male, I'd personally prefer to live a life filled with traditional housewife work. Kids are fun, and I'd like raising them. I like cooking. Cleaning is pretty fun. More than that, though, employment sucks. If you keep me fed, clothed, and with an internet connection, I'd be happy as a clam, even spending eight hours a day doing nothing but housework. I sometimes wonder if there are others who feel this way, especially women who are mostly forced to work nowadays. There's a strange sort of situation: In the past, women were forced to be housewives, which was awful. Nobody should be forced to be something they don't want to be. But now that women have the ability to do mostly whatever a man can do, neither men nor women really have the option of just "being a housewife." We kind of both have to work. I wonder if it would be better if, as a family unit, one person decides to do the housewife-type stuff, and the other decides to pursue a career? You could even switch off after a few years. That'd be a pretty ideal life for me, I think. But again, in most marriages, both people have to work.

throwaway9980 9y ago
It often feels like two income households are counter productive. Sure, we make more money, but it feels like 2x the dollars chasing 1.5x the pie out in the world. And then you have to pay for childcare. As for the household work, I was just telling someone today how much I miss being able to work all the time. I love my kids and they come first, but it's a sacrifice to for me not to work 12+ hour days.
- yakult 9y ago
  As with almost all optimization problems, applying twice the resources (in this case, work hours) won't bring you back twice the (net) bacon, due to diminishing returns. However, I think on net it is still more economically productive, at least in a large portion of cases. It's unlikely that housework and childcare would optimally take up a full 50% of our entire reservoir of workable-hours, especially in the age of household appliances and childcare centres.
  - throwaway9980 9y ago

Chathamization 9y ago

It's not uncommon to find situations like that in some areas. Families where both parents have well paying and intensive careers, and they hire a live-in domestic servant that ends up being somewhat of a substitute parent.

Kholo 9y ago

Camille Paglia is a someone worth paying attention too on the changing roles of men and women, on what we loose and what we gain - https://www.c-span.org/video/?425137-2/camille-paglia-discusses-free-women-free-men https://www.c-span.org/video/?425137-2/camille-paglia-discus...

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

I'm not vilifying her because she found a way of succeeding in male-dominated world. I'm vilifying her because she kept a slave that she abused horribly. This story could have been a heartwarming tale of a non-traditional family if the parents weren't basically monsters towards Lola.

Mz 9y ago
FWIW, I went and checked your comments and nothing you said was what I was talking about. I don't think your remarks about the mother had even been made when I made my comment. There are people who are talking about the terrible thing the mother did when her own father wanted to punish her for lying and she said "Lola will take my punishment." Why vilify her and not her father, who made Lola a slave to begin with, who decided lashing was an appropriate punishment for lying and who went along with his daughter's suggestion that Lola could take the punishment? What teenager wouldn't want some means to get out of abusive treatment from their parent of that sort? Why is this so damning of her instead of her father?
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > FWIW, I went and checked your comments and nothing you said was what I was talking about. I don't think your remarks about the mother had even been made when I made my comment. I'm talking about what's in the article we're discussing. If you were talking about one specific incident only, you should have said that. If the mother isn't responsible because her father was abusive, why assume that her father was responsible either? Maybe his parents were also abusive. The cycle of abuse is an awful thing, but adults must take responsibility for their own actions.
  - Mz 9y ago
    For the record, I think you are misunderstanding my point.