4 ms·

I suspect such a contract would be unenforceable in most first world countries. It certainly would be in the US, which is not exactly a paragon of worker protec

I suspect such a contract would be unenforceable in most first world countries. It certainly would be in the US, which is not exactly a paragon of worker protections.

chii 9y ago
why would it be unenforceable? it's not like you can't leave (indentured servitude). it's just that if you choose to leave before your term is up, you have to pay back the training cost pro-rata, and that sound very reasonable.
- joslin01 9y ago
  I signed a contract like that. They were paranoid I was going to jump ship during a critical time, so gave me a bonus under condition that if I leave company before X months, I would be forced to pay back bonus. Not sure if it's enforceable, but I didn't leave.
  - JCharante 9y ago
    I've heard Amazon gives out bonuses with those conditions, so I'd guess it's enforceable.
- imron 9y ago
  Yes, I'm sure such a system would never be abused. /s
- IanCal 9y ago
  > . it's just that if you choose to leave before your term is up, you have to pay back the training cost pro-rata, and that sound very reasonable. This is pretty common [edit - in the UK], and there are distinctions made in law to stop this being abused (e.g. "if you leave you owe us a million for the basic training cost") [context, liquidated damages clauses are OK in an employment contract, penalty clauses are not] > Case law has clarified that in order for a clause to be a liquidated damages provision rather than a penalty, it must be a genuine reflection of an employer’s pre-estimate of loss that it is likely to suffer if the employee breaches that provision. If an employer is unable to quantify the exact loss that would be suffered, a best guess of the likely loss would be satisfactory. - See more at: http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisions-in-contracts-of-employment-unenforceable-penalties/#sthash.cvfHfrlu.dpuf http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisio... [snip] > The key to a repayment sum being regarded as a genuine pre-estimate of loss appears to be that the sum specified must be compensatory and not ‘in terroreum’ or simply a deterrent to breaching the contract - See more at: http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisions-in-contracts-of-employment-unenforceable-penalties/#sthash.cvfHfrlu.dpuf http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisio... http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisions-in-contracts-of-employment-unenforceable-penalties/ http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisio...
- thedufer 9y ago
  Just having to pay for the training is not what the person I responded to seemed to be suggesting (it sounds like indentured servitude was exactly what was being proposed, in fact). That is, as others have mentioned, reasonably common, and apparently not enough to solve the problem if companies still refuse to provide training.
- dikdik 9y ago
  Companies don't want to deal with being debt collectors is what this comes down to. My last job paid for a good portion of my masters, every time I was reimbursed for tutition there was a set amount of time I had to still be with the company or I had to repay a certain amount. Ended up leaving before finishing my degree due to really hating the company, I was prepared to hand back 15k, but they never even bothered asking for it. Same thing happened to a coworker of mine, though it was substantially less money in that case.
- tudorconstantin 9y ago
  You don't leave, you simply start doing a lousy job so the employer has to fire you.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
I doubt that. There is some sort of program like that in Norway. Im still a bit fuzzy on the actual details, but the employer sends you to appropriate schooling - the dude I knew went 2 days a week, one was a paid workday and the other was on his time. He had to pass the tests and agree to work there for x time, otherwise pay back the training costs. He's left with a valid, transferrable degree to other similar places - the degree would be similar to an associates. Another solution I've seen was in the US. Some pharmacies will train pharmacy technicians and incur the expenses themselves. The tech license, however, is only good so long as they are employed at that company. (folks can pay for such training on their own dime, which can transfer between employers). And yet a third solution: I looked into becoming an electrician in the late 90's (in the US, specifically Indiana). The local electricians union provided schooling and training, no cost to you, so long as you stayed with the union employment for something like 4-5 years lest you pay back the schooling costs. I'm pretty sure the local plumber's union did something similar. Both countries have methods of reclaiming such money - the court systems. Both can withhold money from your paycheck for such things as well, if you don't pay. In the US, that amount is something like 25% of your paycheck, so long as you are left with 30 hours wages at minimum wage. In addition, they can likely take away any professional licenses you obtained until you pay it back.

I suspect such a contract would be unenforceable in most first world countries. It certainly would be in the US, which is not exactly a paragon of worker protections.

chii 9y ago

why would it be unenforceable? it's not like you can't leave (indentured servitude). it's just that if you choose to leave before your term is up, you have to pay back the training cost pro-rata, and that sound very reasonable.

joslin01 9y ago
I signed a contract like that. They were paranoid I was going to jump ship during a critical time, so gave me a bonus under condition that if I leave company before X months, I would be forced to pay back bonus. Not sure if it's enforceable, but I didn't leave.
- JCharante 9y ago
  I've heard Amazon gives out bonuses with those conditions, so I'd guess it's enforceable.
imron 9y ago
Yes, I'm sure such a system would never be abused. /s
IanCal 9y ago
> . it's just that if you choose to leave before your term is up, you have to pay back the training cost pro-rata, and that sound very reasonable. This is pretty common [edit - in the UK], and there are distinctions made in law to stop this being abused (e.g. "if you leave you owe us a million for the basic training cost") [context, liquidated damages clauses are OK in an employment contract, penalty clauses are not] > Case law has clarified that in order for a clause to be a liquidated damages provision rather than a penalty, it must be a genuine reflection of an employer’s pre-estimate of loss that it is likely to suffer if the employee breaches that provision. If an employer is unable to quantify the exact loss that would be suffered, a best guess of the likely loss would be satisfactory. - See more at: http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisions-in-contracts-of-employment-unenforceable-penalties/#sthash.cvfHfrlu.dpuf http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisio... [snip] > The key to a repayment sum being regarded as a genuine pre-estimate of loss appears to be that the sum specified must be compensatory and not ‘in terroreum’ or simply a deterrent to breaching the contract - See more at: http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisions-in-contracts-of-employment-unenforceable-penalties/#sthash.cvfHfrlu.dpuf http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisio... http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisions-in-contracts-of-employment-unenforceable-penalties/ http://rosenblatt-law.co.uk/bulletins/are-repayment-provisio...
thedufer 9y ago
Just having to pay for the training is not what the person I responded to seemed to be suggesting (it sounds like indentured servitude was exactly what was being proposed, in fact). That is, as others have mentioned, reasonably common, and apparently not enough to solve the problem if companies still refuse to provide training.
dikdik 9y ago
Companies don't want to deal with being debt collectors is what this comes down to. My last job paid for a good portion of my masters, every time I was reimbursed for tutition there was a set amount of time I had to still be with the company or I had to repay a certain amount. Ended up leaving before finishing my degree due to really hating the company, I was prepared to hand back 15k, but they never even bothered asking for it. Same thing happened to a coworker of mine, though it was substantially less money in that case.
tudorconstantin 9y ago
You don't leave, you simply start doing a lousy job so the employer has to fire you.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

I doubt that. There is some sort of program like that in Norway. Im still a bit fuzzy on the actual details, but the employer sends you to appropriate schooling - the dude I knew went 2 days a week, one was a paid workday and the other was on his time. He had to pass the tests and agree to work there for x time, otherwise pay back the training costs. He's left with a valid, transferrable degree to other similar places - the degree would be similar to an associates. Another solution I've seen was in the US. Some pharmacies will train pharmacy technicians and incur the expenses themselves. The tech license, however, is only good so long as they are employed at that company. (folks can pay for such training on their own dime, which can transfer between employers). And yet a third solution: I looked into becoming an electrician in the late 90's (in the US, specifically Indiana). The local electricians union provided schooling and training, no cost to you, so long as you stayed with the union employment for something like 4-5 years lest you pay back the schooling costs. I'm pretty sure the local plumber's union did something similar. Both countries have methods of reclaiming such money - the court systems. Both can withhold money from your paycheck for such things as well, if you don't pay. In the US, that amount is something like 25% of your paycheck, so long as you are left with 30 hours wages at minimum wage. In addition, they can likely take away any professional licenses you obtained until you pay it back.