7 ms·

After 15 years of practice..

310 points by InfinityX0 16y ago

srgseg 16y ago
I've long been fascinated with why people decide to do their 10,000 hours of practice. Many people I know have talked the talk but then never really had the motivation to walk the walk and put in the effort. Any ideas on what gives people the internal motivation and strength to follow through with practice in the first place?
- trafficlight 16y ago
  It's not a conscience decision. People put the time in because they genuinely enjoy what they are doing. My thing is bowling. I've been doing it since I was 6 (I'm 26 now). I went to the bowling alley as often as possible, I'd ride my bike down after school whenever I had money. In high school, I bought monthly memberships and would bowl 10-15 games a day, every day. I just couldn't get enough of it. The past few years I've been averaging in the 220s, which is great, but not professional great yet. In the next few years, when I'm more financially stable, I'm going to try out the PBA Tour, if for nothing else but the experience. I bowl so much that I developed bone spurs in my elbow that I had surgically removed a couple of weeks ago. I haven't bowled now for over 4 months, which is the longest break I've ever taken. Moral of the story is, you don't decide to practice something, you do it because you can't imagine not doing it.
  - srgseg 16y ago
    I wonder if there are any particular initial conditions that led you to genuinely enjoy it. For example, a lucky streak or parental encouragement might have led you to make "I'm awesome at bowling" part of your identity, creating a virtuous circle of getting better and being proud and wanting to get even better. If you had a friend or older brothre that had been doing it for 6 months that was with you when you first tried bowling, you might have decided that you simply weren't any good at it, and therefore why waste your time practising something you're clearly no good at? I wonder how much of what we all decide to dedicate our lives to is simply down to random initial conditions.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  Mom
- juicebox 16y ago
  With programming, it was a combination of boredom and having copious amounts of free time after school and on summer breaks. Not having much of a social life and poor self-esteem also helped. Add in a good amount of social anxiety and well... there is your answer. Can't say it wasn't fun, and it definitely pays the bills now. But I would trade it all to be in a mediocre rock band that plays crappy hole-in-the-wall clubs in tiny godforsaken midwest US towns on Tuesday with a midnight time slot. But I was never good at guitar.
mhd 16y ago
So, singer-hackers, does the 80/20 rule apply to this, too? I'm not too interested in becoming a great singer, but I'd certainly practice more guitar playing (and would dare to grab it while sitting at a campfire) if I wouldn't be scared of my own voice... (No, karaoke is straight out. Compared to me, Fran Drescher is the Queen of the Night. I think I actually sounded better while my voice was breaking.)
elviejo 16y ago
This is simply an expression of "Deliberate Practice" http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/how-talented-is-this-kid/#more-1777 http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/how-talente... """A while ago, we wrote a New York Times Magazine column about talent — what it is, how it’s acquired, etc. The gist of the column was that “raw talent,” as it’s often called, is vastly overrated, and that people who become very good at something, whether it’s sports, music, or medicine, generally do so through a great deal of “deliberate practice,” a phrase used by the Florida State psychologist Anders Ericsson and his merry band of fellow scholars who study expert performers in many fields. As we wrote, there are at least three key elements to deliberate practice: 1. Setting specific goals. 2. Obtaining immediate feedback. 3. Concentrating as much on technique as on outcome.""""
iamwil 16y ago
Everyone starts at different aptitudes, but it's hard work that makes up the difference.
- JeanPierre 16y ago
  No matter where you start, you have to work really hard to become the best. Though it's a bit overused, the quote "Winners never quit, and quitters never win" does actually have a point: Never give up.
FalconNL 16y ago
Interestingly, if you multiply 15 years by 365 days and the two hours a day mentioned at some point in the article, you get 10,950 hours, which is remarkably close to Malcolm Gladwell's claim from the book Outliers that it takes 10,000 hours to become a superstar at something.
- limist 16y ago
  Yes, and unlike singing, programming can be comfortably done for more than 2 hours a day, without much risk of long-term body/voice damage. :)
  - george_morgan 16y ago
    Although incorrect posture over 10,000 hours sounds like a recipe for RSI.
  - stratospark 16y ago
    Watch out for the carpal tunnel.
- tudorachim 16y ago
  The claim originally came from the Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbooks-Psychology/dp/0521600812 http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbo...).
  - studer 16y ago
    Umm, that's a bit backwards -- the 10k hours number comes from research by K. Anders Ericsson et al, and the first papers mentioning this are from the early nineties, if not earlier (as for book references, it's discussed in Ericsson's "The Road To Excellence" that predates the Cambridge Handbook by a decade).
    - limist 16y ago
      Yes, here's one of Ericsson's landmark papers on the topic, 1993: http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracti...
lanstein 16y ago
I've actually found that pitch and rhythm issues like this often come not from a lack of ability, but from a phenomenon where the person hears what they intend to hear, rather than what they're actually singing/playing. Extremely focused, repeated work with a tape recorder will bridge the gap between perception and reality in a hurry.
- arnorhs 16y ago
  This is really true for me. I've been singing for a few years, and I'm still really bad. But I noticed that my pitch wasn't good all the time and had a hard time correcting it. Now I try to focus on each note and listen to the tone I'm actually singing and that corrects the whole thing. I also pull myself into a kind of a mode where I hit the notes. But I'm still not good, but at least my pitch has changed dramatically in the last couple of years or so.
- caryme 16y ago
  Also, in a phenomenon somewhat unique to singing, what you hear just isn't what others hear. For example, sometimes people will modify their technique such that their voice sounds very resonant to them, but externally the sound doesn't carry. Sometimes in these cases, listening to a recording can be very helpful, if not a bit shocking. One of the difficulties of learning to sing is learning what good feels like rather than what good sounds like.
abstractbill 16y ago
When people say "X is a gift, you were lucky to be born with it", they're probably trying to give themselves an excuse to not put in the effort needed to get good at that thing.
- MikeCapone 16y ago
  And at the same time, for many people it's an insidious way to reduce other people's accomplishments so that they don't feel inferior in comparison.
  - megablast 16y ago
    Maybe, but I don't think that most people who say this are trying to belittle their idol, rather complement them on the fact that they have a greater skill than others. That no matter how much time someone else puts into it, they will never be as good. And there is some truth to this. You are born a good jocky, most people couldn't train hard to be that small.
    - MikeCapone 16y ago
      I'm not saying it's always conscious, or that this applies to everything. But I think it has a lot to do with how you see the world, and whether you have what Carol Dweck would call a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. I wrote about this a few years ago: http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mindset-which-one-are-you/ http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mind... I think it applies to many things, and too few people are aware of the distinction.
      - TobiasCassell 16y ago
        Upvoted for the Carole Dweck reference.
- sahaj 16y ago
  unless you are a good 7' basketball player.
johngalt 16y ago
Note how people went straight from assuming he "just didn't have singing ability" to "you're lucky to be born with singing ability" It's suprising how often years of hard work is trivialized as "luck" or "inherent ability".
- megablast 16y ago
  You see this a lot on tv, where people survive a plane crash and thank the lord, rather than the pilot and engineers. Or are cured of cancer and thank god, rather than the team of surgeons and years of hard working medical scientists.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    Or lies praying in a hospital. Interestingly these people rarely, if ever, start taking cancer drugs in a church.
- amanfredi 16y ago
  As long as I can remember, I've been a good singer. I've also always enjoyed singing, so the thousands of hours of practice accumulated during childhood, in the car, in the shower, etc. didn't really seem like "hard work". I wouldn't say I've had to work to develop my singing ability in the same way Derek has.
  - arnorhs 16y ago
    That's a good point. Did your parents sing with you? Are they "musical" (ie. play instruments or such)?
    - amanfredi 16y ago
      We sang in church, and I took cello lessons and was involved in a choir, but neither of them actively played an instrument. My mother was also a good singer.
adammichaelc 16y ago
He's really good. http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3 http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3
- krosaen 16y ago
  hmmm, hate to be a downer, but he sounds alright when you know the story, but if I heard him on the radio I wouldn't think, "wow what a good singer". In fact when I was playing that song my wife was like, "what is that?" and not in a good way... but still, better than I would have expected someone with no original talent in singing to be able to achieve.
- hyperbovine 16y ago
  He definitely has the technical fundamentals down, no argument there. Nevertheless, his vocal timbre and overall style don't appeal to me; he sounds exactly like what he says he is: somebody with an average voice who learned to sing well. I can think of a half dozen really jaw-dropping vocalists--the people who make me rue my mediocre singing genes--who I am certain did not work nearly as hard or as long to get where they are, yet are in every way superior singers. Anyways, my only point is, yes, the deliberate practice meme is really hot right now, but natural talent still counts for a lot. This is especially true when it comes to singing, or anything that is governed by some physical property you were born with.
  - josh33 16y ago
    And frankly, were it not for differences in talents and interests, the world really would be a boring place. I've said it elsewhere, but it is the unique combination of our talents that gives us the opportunity to contribute something truly unique (and potentially valuable) to the world. I would argue that Derek contributes more value to the world through fantastic writing and the ability to capture truth from the world around him and illustrate it through word than his music ever did. But that's just my perception, so maybe my reality is different than his.
  - BrandonM 16y ago
    The filename seems to indicate that it's a song from 13 years ago?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
zefhous 16y ago
I think there's truth to this, but I also disagree strongly with the idea that if you're not good at something you haven't practiced enough. Especially in certain fields — music, design, and programming all fit I think — there is a huge amount that many people just seem to get or not. I have a degree in music, so I've seen a lot while I was in school. Yes, some people can work really hard and eventually get it, but I don't think that's everyone. Especially when it comes to ear training, I know a lot of people who have tried really, really hard, but can't seem to develop the skills. I've seen this in many people, even with great teachers, resources, and tons of practice. I think some people have a fundamental difference in how their minds understand music. I think this can be seen in the idea that certain programmers are 10x more productive than others, and that most "programmers" can't really program at all, even after years of school.
- kunqiana 16y ago
  Working Hard != Working Smart
- moultano 16y ago
  Especially in music I think a large portion is how whether you were involved in music as a young child. Forming that baseline of literacy when your brain is still plastic is really critical for having an intuitive sense of it later in life.
- wazoox 16y ago
  I've just read a biography of Martha Argerich. Though she actually did work a lot at time, the fact is that for instance, she played a whole concerto entirely after having heard it /once/. I don't think this kind of ability comes with hard work, unfortunately.
- sireat 16y ago
  Derek's point is of "practice makes perfect" variety. It is true to some extent, however there is one big caveat. You have to do some of that practice at the right age. What is the right age? For most skills/professions/hobbies it is under age of 20 and the most critical is age 12-16 or so. Thus, Derek got some of that singing practice at the right age and got the basics. Unfortunately, he will be disappointed at the progress he can make at programming, because brain is not good at making new pathways at 30 compared to 15. I am speaking from experience, I did not do enough programming in my teen years and it has definitely hurt my progress after age 30. Even with today's title inflation, I am yet to find a chess grandmaster who started after age 30. Sure, someone can probably reach a low expert/master, but even those are not common. On the other hand, I have known quite a few people with the disposable income AND time, who tried to get better at chess and managed at most 100-200 ELO point increase.
BRadmin 16y ago
Every time I read Derek's blog I feel like I'm reading parables. So many cool lessons about being pro-active and simply going after what you want.
myth_drannon 16y ago
I listened to his first and last songs and too me his voice sounds almost the same (taking in consideration the age difference). I think it's partially our self confidence that influences our talents. After 15 year he says, "Yeah, I practiced so much, for SURE I'm much better!" and from now on he is the best. He radiates confidence because he now knows he is good and people around him feel it as well and think he is great. The moment your brain is free from self-limitation you just fly , sadly for most humans it happens after so many years .... C'est la vie...
caryme 16y ago
Like any instrument, technique plays an extremely important role in singing. Poor intonation is less an indicator of a good voice and more of good technique. Of course no one would criticize a girl who picked up a cello and just started playing for just not being a cellist, but also no one would advise her to simply practice alone. The best advice is for that girl to find a good teacher and get some lessons. I find it interesting that Derek downplays the role of his teachers. He mentions he took lessons with several teachers, but neglects to tell us anything about them. I could not begin to describe my development as a singer without discussing my teachers. Yes, it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of practicing poor technique won't do much good.
- jerf 16y ago
  "I find it interesting that Derek downplays the role of his teachers. He mentions he took lessons with several teachers, but neglects to tell us anything about them." Follow the links! http://sivers.org/more-than-one http://sivers.org/more-than-one
  - caryme 16y ago
    Thanks, I missed that link. Still, I'm especially interested to hear about his early lessons as well as the ones closer to his breakthrough period. To be clear, I'm not criticizing him or his teachers. I'm just more interested in their role in his development as a singer than his practicing.
- cowmoo 16y ago
  "Yes it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of practicing poor technique won't do much good." Yes, this is true and oft-repeated mantra on YC News. But it begs the question, how does one practice the "proper" technique (I mean after all, doesn't everyone want to follow the correct form of shooting hoops/strumming a guitar chord, but most people don't have a dedicated shooting coach/guitar teacher to watch their every move or they do know the right technique by heart in theory but can't carry it out in practice for various reasons). The best protip I've received in learning an instrument (and actually doing anything) is when you are stuck at a particular exercise, move onto the next hardest exercise anyways. When you stumble upon the simplest guitar lick on the first page of a guitar book,you might say "are you crazy? I can't even play the first exercise." But if you play the next hardest lick and stumble upon it for a couple of days, then try to play a third lick even harder than the second lick for a couple of days, and then go back to the very first lick. You might find that you can now play it pretty well, or suck much less than before. Yes, practicing is all about hard work and all that, but it is also about momentum and keeping things fresh and new. If it's not fun, you are doing something wrong.
ghshephard 16y ago
What everyone fails to note is that in order to profit from these years of practice, you do have to have a baseline ability in the endeavor that you are trying to develop expertise. I've never met a great programmer who couldn't grok something like pointers to pointers with just a few exposures. Your mind is either wired that way or it isn't. No amount of practicing is going to rewire it, no matter how hard (or long) you try. But, once you do pass the baseline - absolutely, practice does make perfect.
CapitalistCartr 16y ago
One of my treasured childhood memories was getting my first library card. I remember my mother teaching me to read when I was four because I asked her to. I remember devouring every book at home, and in the children's section of the library. I could only read the adult section while Iw as there, so I spent long days doing just that, until I turned 14 and could check them out. I remember vividly Ben seeing em reading the dictionary in elementary school, laughing, and telling the whole class. In high school, I remember how many students asked me for help with specific challenges, and I was happy to help for free. I remember discussing with my fellow nerds doing experiments at home that easily exceeded what the school taught. None of these memories will surprise the audience here. Or that so many people over my life have told me how lucky I am to just be born smart. But the lesson it took me the longest to learn was to value my thinking skills and ignore those who make less of them. And to charge for their use, of course. Just because it come easily to me now, doesn't make it worthless.
rchi 16y ago
It's all relative. Our perception of whether a performance is good is dependent on other performances we've heard. 10000 hours only works because most people don't do it.
Tycho 16y ago
I think use of a microphone and recording equipment makes a world of difference compared to 'live' singing where you really project your voice. I mean once I decided to start singing Dean Martin songs during a game of Halo 3 online... and the people on my team kept saying it was brilliant and insisted I continue. (in real life i'm an awful singer, although pitch is not a problem)
Sukotto 16y ago
Three points 1) This sounds a lot like the "Deliberate Practice" espoused by the (imho excellent) Study hacks blog http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice 2) Also similar to Steve Yegge's recommended approach to learning to type. (another great read) 3) Is it just me or is the silvers.org site a gold mine of great ideas? Like this, for example: My vision of the road to mastery: - start with the fundamentals - get a solid foundation fueled by the understanding of the principles of your discipline - expand and refine your repertoire, guided by your individual predispositions - while keeping in touch, however abstractly, with what you feel to be the essential core of the art What results is a network of deeply internalized, interconnected knowledge that expands from a central, personal locus point. When everyone at a high level has a huge amount of (technical) understanding, much of what separates the great from the very good is deep presence, relaxation of the conscious mind, which allows the unconscious to flow unhindered. He gets a lot of his writing posted on HN. Do you think he deliberately practices writing or is that just natural talent? After reading this story of 15 years to overnight success it really makes me wonder.
- sivers 16y ago
  Thanks! That bit you quoted is from the book "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, so I can't take credit for it. Great book. Really inspiring. http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning Writing good essays/articles is something else I really aspire to, and definitely put a lot of work into. I've been studying my favorite essays by Paul Graham, Harry Beckwith, Seth Godin, and even Robert Fulghum. Those are the tops I've found in this short-form blog-length (under 2-minutes read-time) format that I like. No other motive than the feeling of wanting to share everything I've learned before I die.
  - pavs 16y ago
    I just got introduced to your work from this blog post, and I have to say I simply love this song: http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3 http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3
emehrkay 16y ago
I've always felt that there is no "God-given talent" or even talent, but simply understanding. I came to this conclusion when people would ask me to draw something for them in art class and I'd explain how to do it and they'd be able to draw it themselves.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  There are savants, undeniably. Some who cannot even have understanding (metally challenged) yet still perform.
giardini 16y ago
While I wouldn't care to listen to him sing very long, if he's satisfied with 15 years of practice then that's OK. Whatever floats your boat. But there's no substitute for talent. Best of all is talent + training. Humans are not _tabulae_ _rasae_ onto which anything may be written: they have significant genetic differences which are expressed as different talents/abilities. As a young boy, I could listen to music and extract and replicate melodies and chords easily (learn "by ear"), something my sister desired but could not do without a decade of intense music instruction and practice.
stretchwithme 16y ago
it amazes me that it seems virtually every skill can be practiced and improved if one is dedicated. is there nothing human beings can't do? yes, but that's why we make machines
cianestro 16y ago
Different learning models (D. is most relevant to this post): http://www.mudrashram.com/enhancelearning1.html http://www.mudrashram.com/enhancelearning1.html
jasonkester 16y ago
Nice. There's also something to be said for picking something you're naturally good at an running with that. I, for example, had perfect pitch as a kid and with no practice managed to find myself in the church choir doing solos. I suspect that had I decided to follow up on it, I would have had an easier time than the author making it into a career. In contrast, I can't dance. And it's not from lack of trying. I've taken classes (like college classes even), salsa lessons, you name it and I still just plain suck. Like the author says, I'm sure I could stick with it for 15 years and get good, but shy of that I'm always going to suck at it. Other datapoints for me include rock climbing (naturally good), surfing (naturally bad, but on the 15 year path), basketball (naturally bad and gave up early), and computer programming (naturally good and making a career of it). If you pick something you're naturally OK at and choose that as your focus, I think you'll get a lot faster results than the author.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  Interesting: Chinese music schools have > 90% perfect pitch students. American music schools: 4% (same as population average)
brazzy 16y ago
Am I the only one who gets an XML parsing error (using Firefox 3.6.3)? Page specifies content-type "application/xhtml+xml", might even be valid XHTML, but contains some spurious characters (1e773) at the beginning.
- sivers 16y ago
  Ooops. Sorry. Fixed now!
10ren 16y ago
I listened to the first song. The arrangement really lets it down (guess it's a demo), and I think the verse backing is identical to part of the James Bond theme. But the singing is amazing (which was the point), and I couldn't help but dance to the chorus. I included my negatives so I could conclude: it's easy to criticize, but hard to make people dance.
themlgd1 16y ago
You know, I'm all for practice, I'm all for hard work trumps talent etc. But this is a really bad example. I promise i'm not trolling. I actually went to his archives and listened to his music. I hate to say this, but the guy can't sing. On top of that, the improvement from as he says his "early days" to the latest stuff (1999), is marginal. I think his point still stands. He just uses a bad example.
jessor 16y ago
Reminds me of Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours rule (he wrote about it in Outliers).

310 points by InfinityX0 16y ago

I've long been fascinated with why people decide to do their 10,000 hours of practice. Many people I know have talked the talk but then never really had the motivation to walk the walk and put in the effort. Any ideas on what gives people the internal motivation and strength to follow through with practice in the first place?

trafficlight 16y ago
It's not a conscience decision. People put the time in because they genuinely enjoy what they are doing. My thing is bowling. I've been doing it since I was 6 (I'm 26 now). I went to the bowling alley as often as possible, I'd ride my bike down after school whenever I had money. In high school, I bought monthly memberships and would bowl 10-15 games a day, every day. I just couldn't get enough of it. The past few years I've been averaging in the 220s, which is great, but not professional great yet. In the next few years, when I'm more financially stable, I'm going to try out the PBA Tour, if for nothing else but the experience. I bowl so much that I developed bone spurs in my elbow that I had surgically removed a couple of weeks ago. I haven't bowled now for over 4 months, which is the longest break I've ever taken. Moral of the story is, you don't decide to practice something, you do it because you can't imagine not doing it.
- srgseg 16y ago
  I wonder if there are any particular initial conditions that led you to genuinely enjoy it. For example, a lucky streak or parental encouragement might have led you to make "I'm awesome at bowling" part of your identity, creating a virtuous circle of getting better and being proud and wanting to get even better. If you had a friend or older brothre that had been doing it for 6 months that was with you when you first tried bowling, you might have decided that you simply weren't any good at it, and therefore why waste your time practising something you're clearly no good at? I wonder how much of what we all decide to dedicate our lives to is simply down to random initial conditions.
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
Mom
juicebox 16y ago
With programming, it was a combination of boredom and having copious amounts of free time after school and on summer breaks. Not having much of a social life and poor self-esteem also helped. Add in a good amount of social anxiety and well... there is your answer. Can't say it wasn't fun, and it definitely pays the bills now. But I would trade it all to be in a mediocre rock band that plays crappy hole-in-the-wall clubs in tiny godforsaken midwest US towns on Tuesday with a midnight time slot. But I was never good at guitar.

mhd 16y ago

So, singer-hackers, does the 80/20 rule apply to this, too? I'm not too interested in becoming a great singer, but I'd certainly practice more guitar playing (and would dare to grab it while sitting at a campfire) if I wouldn't be scared of my own voice... (No, karaoke is straight out. Compared to me, Fran Drescher is the Queen of the Night. I think I actually sounded better while my voice was breaking.)

elviejo 16y ago

This is simply an expression of "Deliberate Practice" http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/how-talented-is-this-kid/#more-1777 http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/how-talente... """A while ago, we wrote a New York Times Magazine column about talent — what it is, how it’s acquired, etc. The gist of the column was that “raw talent,” as it’s often called, is vastly overrated, and that people who become very good at something, whether it’s sports, music, or medicine, generally do so through a great deal of “deliberate practice,” a phrase used by the Florida State psychologist Anders Ericsson and his merry band of fellow scholars who study expert performers in many fields. As we wrote, there are at least three key elements to deliberate practice: 1. Setting specific goals. 2. Obtaining immediate feedback. 3. Concentrating as much on technique as on outcome.""""

iamwil 16y ago

Everyone starts at different aptitudes, but it's hard work that makes up the difference.

JeanPierre 16y ago
No matter where you start, you have to work really hard to become the best. Though it's a bit overused, the quote "Winners never quit, and quitters never win" does actually have a point: Never give up.

FalconNL 16y ago

Interestingly, if you multiply 15 years by 365 days and the two hours a day mentioned at some point in the article, you get 10,950 hours, which is remarkably close to Malcolm Gladwell's claim from the book Outliers that it takes 10,000 hours to become a superstar at something.

limist 16y ago
Yes, and unlike singing, programming can be comfortably done for more than 2 hours a day, without much risk of long-term body/voice damage. :)
- george_morgan 16y ago
  Although incorrect posture over 10,000 hours sounds like a recipe for RSI.
- stratospark 16y ago
  Watch out for the carpal tunnel.
tudorachim 16y ago
The claim originally came from the Cambridge Handbook of Expertise and Expert Performance (http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbooks-Psychology/dp/0521600812 http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Expertise-Performance-Handbo...).
- studer 16y ago
  Umm, that's a bit backwards -- the 10k hours number comes from research by K. Anders Ericsson et al, and the first papers mentioning this are from the early nineties, if not earlier (as for book references, it's discussed in Ericsson's "The Road To Excellence" that predates the Cambridge Handbook by a decade).
  - limist 16y ago
    Yes, here's one of Ericsson's landmark papers on the topic, 1993: http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.pdf http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracti...

lanstein 16y ago

I've actually found that pitch and rhythm issues like this often come not from a lack of ability, but from a phenomenon where the person hears what they intend to hear, rather than what they're actually singing/playing. Extremely focused, repeated work with a tape recorder will bridge the gap between perception and reality in a hurry.

arnorhs 16y ago
This is really true for me. I've been singing for a few years, and I'm still really bad. But I noticed that my pitch wasn't good all the time and had a hard time correcting it. Now I try to focus on each note and listen to the tone I'm actually singing and that corrects the whole thing. I also pull myself into a kind of a mode where I hit the notes. But I'm still not good, but at least my pitch has changed dramatically in the last couple of years or so.
caryme 16y ago
Also, in a phenomenon somewhat unique to singing, what you hear just isn't what others hear. For example, sometimes people will modify their technique such that their voice sounds very resonant to them, but externally the sound doesn't carry. Sometimes in these cases, listening to a recording can be very helpful, if not a bit shocking. One of the difficulties of learning to sing is learning what good feels like rather than what good sounds like.

abstractbill 16y ago

When people say "X is a gift, you were lucky to be born with it", they're probably trying to give themselves an excuse to not put in the effort needed to get good at that thing.

MikeCapone 16y ago
And at the same time, for many people it's an insidious way to reduce other people's accomplishments so that they don't feel inferior in comparison.
- megablast 16y ago
  Maybe, but I don't think that most people who say this are trying to belittle their idol, rather complement them on the fact that they have a greater skill than others. That no matter how much time someone else puts into it, they will never be as good. And there is some truth to this. You are born a good jocky, most people couldn't train hard to be that small.
  - MikeCapone 16y ago
    I'm not saying it's always conscious, or that this applies to everything. But I think it has a lot to do with how you see the world, and whether you have what Carol Dweck would call a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. I wrote about this a few years ago: http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mindset-which-one-are-you/ http://michaelgr.com/2007/04/15/fixed-mindset-vs-growth-mind... I think it applies to many things, and too few people are aware of the distinction.
    - TobiasCassell 16y ago
      Upvoted for the Carole Dweck reference.
sahaj 16y ago
unless you are a good 7' basketball player.

johngalt 16y ago

Note how people went straight from assuming he "just didn't have singing ability" to "you're lucky to be born with singing ability" It's suprising how often years of hard work is trivialized as "luck" or "inherent ability".

megablast 16y ago
You see this a lot on tv, where people survive a plane crash and thank the lord, rather than the pilot and engineers. Or are cured of cancer and thank god, rather than the team of surgeons and years of hard working medical scientists.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Or lies praying in a hospital. Interestingly these people rarely, if ever, start taking cancer drugs in a church.
amanfredi 16y ago
As long as I can remember, I've been a good singer. I've also always enjoyed singing, so the thousands of hours of practice accumulated during childhood, in the car, in the shower, etc. didn't really seem like "hard work". I wouldn't say I've had to work to develop my singing ability in the same way Derek has.
- arnorhs 16y ago
  That's a good point. Did your parents sing with you? Are they "musical" (ie. play instruments or such)?
  - amanfredi 16y ago
    We sang in church, and I took cello lessons and was involved in a choir, but neither of them actively played an instrument. My mother was also a good singer.

adammichaelc 16y ago

He's really good. http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3 http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3

krosaen 16y ago
hmmm, hate to be a downer, but he sounds alright when you know the story, but if I heard him on the radio I wouldn't think, "wow what a good singer". In fact when I was playing that song my wife was like, "what is that?" and not in a good way... but still, better than I would have expected someone with no original talent in singing to be able to achieve.
hyperbovine 16y ago
He definitely has the technical fundamentals down, no argument there. Nevertheless, his vocal timbre and overall style don't appeal to me; he sounds exactly like what he says he is: somebody with an average voice who learned to sing well. I can think of a half dozen really jaw-dropping vocalists--the people who make me rue my mediocre singing genes--who I am certain did not work nearly as hard or as long to get where they are, yet are in every way superior singers. Anyways, my only point is, yes, the deliberate practice meme is really hot right now, but natural talent still counts for a lot. This is especially true when it comes to singing, or anything that is governed by some physical property you were born with.
- josh33 16y ago
  And frankly, were it not for differences in talents and interests, the world really would be a boring place. I've said it elsewhere, but it is the unique combination of our talents that gives us the opportunity to contribute something truly unique (and potentially valuable) to the world. I would argue that Derek contributes more value to the world through fantastic writing and the ability to capture truth from the world around him and illustrate it through word than his music ever did. But that's just my perception, so maybe my reality is different than his.
- BrandonM 16y ago
  The filename seems to indicate that it's a song from 13 years ago?

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

zefhous 16y ago

I think there's truth to this, but I also disagree strongly with the idea that if you're not good at something you haven't practiced enough. Especially in certain fields — music, design, and programming all fit I think — there is a huge amount that many people just seem to get or not. I have a degree in music, so I've seen a lot while I was in school. Yes, some people can work really hard and eventually get it, but I don't think that's everyone. Especially when it comes to ear training, I know a lot of people who have tried really, really hard, but can't seem to develop the skills. I've seen this in many people, even with great teachers, resources, and tons of practice. I think some people have a fundamental difference in how their minds understand music. I think this can be seen in the idea that certain programmers are 10x more productive than others, and that most "programmers" can't really program at all, even after years of school.

kunqiana 16y ago
Working Hard != Working Smart
moultano 16y ago
Especially in music I think a large portion is how whether you were involved in music as a young child. Forming that baseline of literacy when your brain is still plastic is really critical for having an intuitive sense of it later in life.
wazoox 16y ago
I've just read a biography of Martha Argerich. Though she actually did work a lot at time, the fact is that for instance, she played a whole concerto entirely after having heard it /once/. I don't think this kind of ability comes with hard work, unfortunately.
sireat 16y ago
Derek's point is of "practice makes perfect" variety. It is true to some extent, however there is one big caveat. You have to do some of that practice at the right age. What is the right age? For most skills/professions/hobbies it is under age of 20 and the most critical is age 12-16 or so. Thus, Derek got some of that singing practice at the right age and got the basics. Unfortunately, he will be disappointed at the progress he can make at programming, because brain is not good at making new pathways at 30 compared to 15. I am speaking from experience, I did not do enough programming in my teen years and it has definitely hurt my progress after age 30. Even with today's title inflation, I am yet to find a chess grandmaster who started after age 30. Sure, someone can probably reach a low expert/master, but even those are not common. On the other hand, I have known quite a few people with the disposable income AND time, who tried to get better at chess and managed at most 100-200 ELO point increase.

BRadmin 16y ago

Every time I read Derek's blog I feel like I'm reading parables. So many cool lessons about being pro-active and simply going after what you want.

myth_drannon 16y ago

I listened to his first and last songs and too me his voice sounds almost the same (taking in consideration the age difference). I think it's partially our self confidence that influences our talents. After 15 year he says, "Yeah, I practiced so much, for SURE I'm much better!" and from now on he is the best. He radiates confidence because he now knows he is good and people around him feel it as well and think he is great. The moment your brain is free from self-limitation you just fly , sadly for most humans it happens after so many years .... C'est la vie...

caryme 16y ago

Like any instrument, technique plays an extremely important role in singing. Poor intonation is less an indicator of a good voice and more of good technique. Of course no one would criticize a girl who picked up a cello and just started playing for just not being a cellist, but also no one would advise her to simply practice alone. The best advice is for that girl to find a good teacher and get some lessons. I find it interesting that Derek downplays the role of his teachers. He mentions he took lessons with several teachers, but neglects to tell us anything about them. I could not begin to describe my development as a singer without discussing my teachers. Yes, it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of practicing poor technique won't do much good.

jerf 16y ago
"I find it interesting that Derek downplays the role of his teachers. He mentions he took lessons with several teachers, but neglects to tell us anything about them." Follow the links! http://sivers.org/more-than-one http://sivers.org/more-than-one
- caryme 16y ago
  Thanks, I missed that link. Still, I'm especially interested to hear about his early lessons as well as the ones closer to his breakthrough period. To be clear, I'm not criticizing him or his teachers. I'm just more interested in their role in his development as a singer than his practicing.
cowmoo 16y ago
"Yes it takes practice to become a good singer, but any number of hours of practicing poor technique won't do much good." Yes, this is true and oft-repeated mantra on YC News. But it begs the question, how does one practice the "proper" technique (I mean after all, doesn't everyone want to follow the correct form of shooting hoops/strumming a guitar chord, but most people don't have a dedicated shooting coach/guitar teacher to watch their every move or they do know the right technique by heart in theory but can't carry it out in practice for various reasons). The best protip I've received in learning an instrument (and actually doing anything) is when you are stuck at a particular exercise, move onto the next hardest exercise anyways. When you stumble upon the simplest guitar lick on the first page of a guitar book,you might say "are you crazy? I can't even play the first exercise." But if you play the next hardest lick and stumble upon it for a couple of days, then try to play a third lick even harder than the second lick for a couple of days, and then go back to the very first lick. You might find that you can now play it pretty well, or suck much less than before. Yes, practicing is all about hard work and all that, but it is also about momentum and keeping things fresh and new. If it's not fun, you are doing something wrong.

ghshephard 16y ago

What everyone fails to note is that in order to profit from these years of practice, you do have to have a baseline ability in the endeavor that you are trying to develop expertise. I've never met a great programmer who couldn't grok something like pointers to pointers with just a few exposures. Your mind is either wired that way or it isn't. No amount of practicing is going to rewire it, no matter how hard (or long) you try. But, once you do pass the baseline - absolutely, practice does make perfect.

CapitalistCartr 16y ago

One of my treasured childhood memories was getting my first library card. I remember my mother teaching me to read when I was four because I asked her to. I remember devouring every book at home, and in the children's section of the library. I could only read the adult section while Iw as there, so I spent long days doing just that, until I turned 14 and could check them out. I remember vividly Ben seeing em reading the dictionary in elementary school, laughing, and telling the whole class. In high school, I remember how many students asked me for help with specific challenges, and I was happy to help for free. I remember discussing with my fellow nerds doing experiments at home that easily exceeded what the school taught. None of these memories will surprise the audience here. Or that so many people over my life have told me how lucky I am to just be born smart. But the lesson it took me the longest to learn was to value my thinking skills and ignore those who make less of them. And to charge for their use, of course. Just because it come easily to me now, doesn't make it worthless.

rchi 16y ago

It's all relative. Our perception of whether a performance is good is dependent on other performances we've heard. 10000 hours only works because most people don't do it.

Tycho 16y ago

I think use of a microphone and recording equipment makes a world of difference compared to 'live' singing where you really project your voice. I mean once I decided to start singing Dean Martin songs during a game of Halo 3 online... and the people on my team kept saying it was brilliant and insisted I continue. (in real life i'm an awful singer, although pitch is not a problem)

Sukotto 16y ago

Three points 1) This sounds a lot like the "Deliberate Practice" espoused by the (imho excellent) Study hacks blog http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice http://calnewport.com/blog/?s=deliberate+practice 2) Also similar to Steve Yegge's recommended approach to learning to type. (another great read) 3) Is it just me or is the silvers.org site a gold mine of great ideas? Like this, for example: My vision of the road to mastery: - start with the fundamentals - get a solid foundation fueled by the understanding of the principles of your discipline - expand and refine your repertoire, guided by your individual predispositions - while keeping in touch, however abstractly, with what you feel to be the essential core of the art What results is a network of deeply internalized, interconnected knowledge that expands from a central, personal locus point. When everyone at a high level has a huge amount of (technical) understanding, much of what separates the great from the very good is deep presence, relaxation of the conscious mind, which allows the unconscious to flow unhindered. He gets a lot of his writing posted on HN. Do you think he deliberately practices writing or is that just natural talent? After reading this story of 15 years to overnight success it really makes me wonder.

sivers 16y ago
Thanks! That bit you quoted is from the book "The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, so I can't take credit for it. Great book. Really inspiring. http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning http://sivers.org/book/ArtOfLearning Writing good essays/articles is something else I really aspire to, and definitely put a lot of work into. I've been studying my favorite essays by Paul Graham, Harry Beckwith, Seth Godin, and even Robert Fulghum. Those are the tops I've found in this short-form blog-length (under 2-minutes read-time) format that I like. No other motive than the feeling of wanting to share everything I've learned before I die.
- pavs 16y ago
  I just got introduced to your work from this blog post, and I have to say I simply love this song: http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3 http://sivers.org/mp3/DEREK_SIVERS-Ready_to_Live-1997-01.mp3

emehrkay 16y ago

I've always felt that there is no "God-given talent" or even talent, but simply understanding. I came to this conclusion when people would ask me to draw something for them in art class and I'd explain how to do it and they'd be able to draw it themselves.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago
There are savants, undeniably. Some who cannot even have understanding (metally challenged) yet still perform.

giardini 16y ago

While I wouldn't care to listen to him sing very long, if he's satisfied with 15 years of practice then that's OK. Whatever floats your boat. But there's no substitute for talent. Best of all is talent + training. Humans are not _tabulae_ _rasae_ onto which anything may be written: they have significant genetic differences which are expressed as different talents/abilities. As a young boy, I could listen to music and extract and replicate melodies and chords easily (learn "by ear"), something my sister desired but could not do without a decade of intense music instruction and practice.

stretchwithme 16y ago

it amazes me that it seems virtually every skill can be practiced and improved if one is dedicated. is there nothing human beings can't do? yes, but that's why we make machines

cianestro 16y ago

Different learning models (D. is most relevant to this post): http://www.mudrashram.com/enhancelearning1.html http://www.mudrashram.com/enhancelearning1.html

jasonkester 16y ago

Nice. There's also something to be said for picking something you're naturally good at an running with that. I, for example, had perfect pitch as a kid and with no practice managed to find myself in the church choir doing solos. I suspect that had I decided to follow up on it, I would have had an easier time than the author making it into a career. In contrast, I can't dance. And it's not from lack of trying. I've taken classes (like college classes even), salsa lessons, you name it and I still just plain suck. Like the author says, I'm sure I could stick with it for 15 years and get good, but shy of that I'm always going to suck at it. Other datapoints for me include rock climbing (naturally good), surfing (naturally bad, but on the 15 year path), basketball (naturally bad and gave up early), and computer programming (naturally good and making a career of it). If you pick something you're naturally OK at and choose that as your focus, I think you'll get a lot faster results than the author.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago
Interesting: Chinese music schools have > 90% perfect pitch students. American music schools: 4% (same as population average)

brazzy 16y ago

Am I the only one who gets an XML parsing error (using Firefox 3.6.3)? Page specifies content-type "application/xhtml+xml", might even be valid XHTML, but contains some spurious characters (1e773) at the beginning.

sivers 16y ago
Ooops. Sorry. Fixed now!

10ren 16y ago

I listened to the first song. The arrangement really lets it down (guess it's a demo), and I think the verse backing is identical to part of the James Bond theme. But the singing is amazing (which was the point), and I couldn't help but dance to the chorus. I included my negatives so I could conclude: it's easy to criticize, but hard to make people dance.

themlgd1 16y ago

You know, I'm all for practice, I'm all for hard work trumps talent etc. But this is a really bad example. I promise i'm not trolling. I actually went to his archives and listened to his music. I hate to say this, but the guy can't sing. On top of that, the improvement from as he says his "early days" to the latest stuff (1999), is marginal. I think his point still stands. He just uses a bad example.

jessor 16y ago

Reminds me of Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hours rule (he wrote about it in Outliers).