7 ms·

First time I've heard of Cage. Given the entirely reasonable reasons Mr Rabbani gave for non-compliance I hope he wins his case. He is surely in the right? The

by bogle 9y ago

First time I've heard of Cage. Given the entirely reasonable reasons Mr Rabbani gave for non-compliance I hope he wins his case. He is surely in the right? The awful treatment of non-white UK citizens at our borders is another problem again, quite possibly due in part to the institutional racism that still exists in our police forces.

beedogs 9y ago
Frankly, Schedule 7 stops need to be eliminated, since they only seem to be used to harass and intimidate minorities.
- grey-area 9y ago
  And recruit them for the spy agencies. Find some small transgression on their device, use it as leverage. I imagine this guy is a high value target for them, given contact with prisoners. All this data is being stored and shared too, so your passwords, contacts, travel history and web history will be sitting in datacenters forever, just in case you might be useful to them later.
adnam 9y ago
It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Well isn't that a huge hint the authorities should take when an Islamist pressure group, in today's context, feels closer to the general public than the government ? We all hate those laws. We hate the TSA. We hate the border control overkill checks. We hate the "give us the password" bullshit. We hate it so much when something suspicious may be happening we automatically assume the suspect is the victim. Somewhere down the road the gov messed up so bad it's guilty by default until proven innocent into the eye of people on HN, a group of usually pretty well educated people. That is a red flag.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    Who is "we"? Last time I traveled to the US was in 2013. The TSA were a bother, but didn't really stand out compared to US immigration checks, airline policies, being contained in an airplane for 12 hours, my country fiscal policies on return, finding taxis to go from airport to destination and everything. Yes, the TSA thing is aggravated by it being useless, but I don't expect any general population to know this.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Cage is an Islamist pressure group. They've clearly denounced extremist Islam.
  - adnam 9y ago
    They also clearly gave a platform to Al Quaeda recruiter al-Awlaki. It's better to judge people by they actions rather than their words.
    - dublinben 9y ago
      So did YouTube, yet you don't see their executives being stopped and searched at borders.
      - adnam 9y ago
        Which is obviously not the same thing.
      - vinceguidry 9y ago
        YouTube's only a platform in the technological sense. Think about what it is in the very basic sense, a raised platform in a public area. While YouTube is public, it is not raised. If you go to YouTube's public marketplace, you must build a raised platform yourself if you want to have one. It's the difference between me publishing your videos to my YouTube feed and PewDiePie publishing your videos up to his feed.
        thaumasiotes 9y ago
        YouTube actually is "raised" in the sense you describe, relative to other websites which could theoretically host video content (all of them). This is why people worry, with some justification, about YouTube censoring content. And, symmetrically, it's enough for other people to complain, again with some justification, that YouTube isn't censoring enough content and should be punished for that.
        9y ago
- triplesec 9y ago
  Be careful of how you approach other religions: peaceful Christianist pressure groups don't get the same treatment.
  - adnam 9y ago
    Sorry I don't know what you mean.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- driverdan 9y ago
  So? Cage could be a straight up terrorist group and this incident would still be wrong. There's a reason why due process exists.
  - adnam 9y ago
    I don't disagree with you, but given their history I would take what they say with a large pinch of salt.
  - tomp 9y ago
    Arresting a member of a terorist group would be wrong? What are you smoking?!
    - jstanley 9y ago
      You arrest people for committing actual crimes, not just for associating with groups of people that you don't like.
      - adnam 9y ago
        No, you arrest people suspected of having committed crimes and give them due process of law
        danesparza 9y ago
        Love your enthusiasm. You're close, but not quite right. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process) "Due process is the legal requirement that the state must respect all legal rights that are owed to a person. Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due process violation, which offends the rule of law." I think the important point to note is that the 'digital strip search' mentioned is used in an arbitrary way and is a great power in the hands of folks not particularly careful about abusing it.
- fictioncircle 9y ago
  > It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group. Alright, so all the Christian pressure groups should get that kind of treatment in your view then? If not, given CAGE isn't pro-terrorist and is simply pro-Islam, you even pointing that out is...really questionable judgment on your part.
  - adnam 9y ago
    It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10981050/The-evidence-shows-that-Cage-is-a-pro-terrorist-group.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105...
    - valuearb 9y ago
      can't tell from this article, which reads like an editorial and is extremely vague on actual facts.
    - fictioncircle 9y ago
      > It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.... So your argument is torture is OK because they are convicted terrorists? Or that the US military is pro-Terrorist? > For example, Cage is animated about the case of Aafia Siddiqui, jailed for 86 years in the US for attempting to murder US officials in Afghanistan and assaulting those who tried to stop her. Siddiqui had wide-ranging links to al-Qaeda and was married to a key plotter behind the 9/11 attacks. At the beginning of her trial she said that jurors should be "subject to genetic testing" to see if they were Zionist or Israeli. She is no terror suspect – her guilt was proved in a court of law. Yet Cage’s profile on Siddiqui – which misses literally all this out – says it has "dedicated itself" to freeing her. > Aafia Siddiqui and her three children were kidnapped from the streets of Karachi in March 2003. Since then they have been subjected to enforced disappearances, torture and ill-treatment beyond measure. Cageprisoners has dedicated itself to campaigning for Aafia and her family in order to help secure their release and expose those involved in their abuse. > Others that Cage support include Djamel Beghal, who, following allegations of a plot to blow up the US embassy in Paris, was jailed in France in 2005 for "belonging to a criminal association in relation to preparing an act of terrorism"; and Nizar Trabelsi, convicted in Belgium as part of an al-Qaeda plot to carry out a suicide attack against a military base there holding US soldiers. > Le Point reported that the Emirati police had been sharing information with the French authorities since the beginning of August 2001. Questions being asked of Beghal confirmed for him that it was the French who were feeding information to the Emirati police during his torture and abuse. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-dined-pentagon-months.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-... > Anwar Al-Awlaki may be the first American on the CIA's kill or capture list, but he was also a lunch guest of military brass at the Pentagon within months of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Fox News has learned.

by bogle 9y ago

beedogs 9y ago

Frankly, Schedule 7 stops need to be eliminated, since they only seem to be used to harass and intimidate minorities.

grey-area 9y ago
And recruit them for the spy agencies. Find some small transgression on their device, use it as leverage. I imagine this guy is a high value target for them, given contact with prisoners. All this data is being stored and shared too, so your passwords, contacts, travel history and web history will be sitting in datacenters forever, just in case you might be useful to them later.

adnam 9y ago

It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group.

sametmax 9y ago
Well isn't that a huge hint the authorities should take when an Islamist pressure group, in today's context, feels closer to the general public than the government ? We all hate those laws. We hate the TSA. We hate the border control overkill checks. We hate the "give us the password" bullshit. We hate it so much when something suspicious may be happening we automatically assume the suspect is the victim. Somewhere down the road the gov messed up so bad it's guilty by default until proven innocent into the eye of people on HN, a group of usually pretty well educated people. That is a red flag.
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  Who is "we"? Last time I traveled to the US was in 2013. The TSA were a bother, but didn't really stand out compared to US immigration checks, airline policies, being contained in an airplane for 12 hours, my country fiscal policies on return, finding taxis to go from airport to destination and everything. Yes, the TSA thing is aggravated by it being useless, but I don't expect any general population to know this.
DanBC 9y ago
> Cage is an Islamist pressure group. They've clearly denounced extremist Islam.
- adnam 9y ago
  They also clearly gave a platform to Al Quaeda recruiter al-Awlaki. It's better to judge people by they actions rather than their words.
  - dublinben 9y ago
    So did YouTube, yet you don't see their executives being stopped and searched at borders.
    - adnam 9y ago
      Which is obviously not the same thing.
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      YouTube's only a platform in the technological sense. Think about what it is in the very basic sense, a raised platform in a public area. While YouTube is public, it is not raised. If you go to YouTube's public marketplace, you must build a raised platform yourself if you want to have one. It's the difference between me publishing your videos to my YouTube feed and PewDiePie publishing your videos up to his feed.
      - thaumasiotes 9y ago
        YouTube actually is "raised" in the sense you describe, relative to other websites which could theoretically host video content (all of them). This is why people worry, with some justification, about YouTube censoring content. And, symmetrically, it's enough for other people to complain, again with some justification, that YouTube isn't censoring enough content and should be punished for that.
        9y ago
triplesec 9y ago
Be careful of how you approach other religions: peaceful Christianist pressure groups don't get the same treatment.
- adnam 9y ago
  Sorry I don't know what you mean.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
driverdan 9y ago
So? Cage could be a straight up terrorist group and this incident would still be wrong. There's a reason why due process exists.
- adnam 9y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but given their history I would take what they say with a large pinch of salt.
- tomp 9y ago
  Arresting a member of a terorist group would be wrong? What are you smoking?!
  - jstanley 9y ago
    You arrest people for committing actual crimes, not just for associating with groups of people that you don't like.
    - adnam 9y ago
      No, you arrest people suspected of having committed crimes and give them due process of law
      - danesparza 9y ago
        Love your enthusiasm. You're close, but not quite right. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process) "Due process is the legal requirement that the state must respect all legal rights that are owed to a person. Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due process violation, which offends the rule of law." I think the important point to note is that the 'digital strip search' mentioned is used in an arbitrary way and is a great power in the hands of folks not particularly careful about abusing it.
fictioncircle 9y ago
> It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group. Alright, so all the Christian pressure groups should get that kind of treatment in your view then? If not, given CAGE isn't pro-terrorist and is simply pro-Islam, you even pointing that out is...really questionable judgment on your part.
- adnam 9y ago
  It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10981050/The-evidence-shows-that-Cage-is-a-pro-terrorist-group.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105...
  - valuearb 9y ago
    can't tell from this article, which reads like an editorial and is extremely vague on actual facts.
  - fictioncircle 9y ago
    > It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.... So your argument is torture is OK because they are convicted terrorists? Or that the US military is pro-Terrorist? > For example, Cage is animated about the case of Aafia Siddiqui, jailed for 86 years in the US for attempting to murder US officials in Afghanistan and assaulting those who tried to stop her. Siddiqui had wide-ranging links to al-Qaeda and was married to a key plotter behind the 9/11 attacks. At the beginning of her trial she said that jurors should be "subject to genetic testing" to see if they were Zionist or Israeli. She is no terror suspect – her guilt was proved in a court of law. Yet Cage’s profile on Siddiqui – which misses literally all this out – says it has "dedicated itself" to freeing her. > Aafia Siddiqui and her three children were kidnapped from the streets of Karachi in March 2003. Since then they have been subjected to enforced disappearances, torture and ill-treatment beyond measure. Cageprisoners has dedicated itself to campaigning for Aafia and her family in order to help secure their release and expose those involved in their abuse. > Others that Cage support include Djamel Beghal, who, following allegations of a plot to blow up the US embassy in Paris, was jailed in France in 2005 for "belonging to a criminal association in relation to preparing an act of terrorism"; and Nizar Trabelsi, convicted in Belgium as part of an al-Qaeda plot to carry out a suicide attack against a military base there holding US soldiers. > Le Point reported that the Emirati police had been sharing information with the French authorities since the beginning of August 2001. Questions being asked of Beghal confirmed for him that it was the French who were feeding information to the Emirati police during his torture and abuse. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-dined-pentagon-months.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-... > Anwar Al-Awlaki may be the first American on the CIA's kill or capture list, but he was also a lunch guest of military brass at the Pentagon within months of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Fox News has learned.