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Cloudflare says that it is willing to spend up to $50,000 to award people who dig up prior art that invalidates Blackbird's patents ($20,000 for prior art relat

by jawns 9y ago

Cloudflare says that it is willing to spend up to $50,000 to award people who dig up prior art that invalidates Blackbird's patents ($20,000 for prior art related to the lawsuit and $30,000 for prior art related to Blackbird's other patents). BUT (and it's a big but, Sir Mix-a-Lot) ... > These opportunities remain open as long as Blackbird's case against Cloudflare is still active. So, what will likely happen is that as soon as Blackbird spots this blog post and realize that Cloudflare has no intention of settling, they withdraw their suit, and that means Cloudflare doesn't have to pay anybody a prior-art bounty. That would actually be in keeping with a patent troll's M.O. They don't want to waste their time actually pursuing lawsuits against companies that are willing to push back. Instead, it's much more lucrative for them to shake down easy targets and reach a quick settlement.

degenerate 9y ago
Yes I believe that is what Cloudflare is banking on - Blackbird backing out and no bounty money spent. I wouldn't find it too bad of an outcome though. Googling "blackbird patent" will pull up Cloudflare's blog post and other tech companies can use the same strategy against them by offering a bounty. Patent troll invalidation bounties might become a new thing. The more ways to slay the trolls the better.
openmosix 9y ago
I had the very same reaction after reading this. A long post that describes how bad patent trolls are, a general call to embrace the fight, everyone should join the fight sponsored by Cloudflare and together we can win! But, if for whatever reason Blackbird leaves us alone and they bully someone else - not our problem anymore! As someone who does not have a dog in this fight, I see no reasons to help them when it's blatantly obvious they are just fighting for themselves.
- manigandham 9y ago
  > I see no reasons to help them when it's blatantly obvious they are just fighting for themselves They're a business, they're supposed to fight for themselves. And the bounty is the reason to help.
  - SkyMarshal 9y ago
    Fighting for themselves could also take the form of teaming up with Newegg and other active troll fighters, funding an ongoing prior art bounty together that targets the patents of known patent trolls, and keeping it going indefinitely.
topher200 9y ago
It's true that Cloudflare left themselves that loophole, but the general tone of the rest of the post seems to suggest that they're going for the throat. I wouldn't expect them to back out on paying the $50k even if the immediate withdrawal of the suit would allow them to. I get the feeling that they won't be getting sued by patent trolls again for a long time, they know that, and they'll be grinding this one into the ground as far as possible.
- lordnacho 9y ago
  Cloudflare has a lot of goodwill in my book. I'm sure they will come back and explain this was a miswording, and that they are happy to help even after this particular case is resolved.
jogjayr 9y ago
For smaller companies and orgs, or individual software developers, I wonder if it now makes sense to pay into some sort of common "patent troll insurance pool" (I'm sure someone's suggested this already). If any member of the pool gets sued, the pool puts out patent invalidation bounties on the troll's entire portfolio and (for an additional premium) covers part of the legal defense in case there's a trial. a) it can be structured like a credit union or something and owned by its members (reduces incentives for it to grow beyond what's necessary) b) make it retroactive i.e. you don't have to already be a member to get protection. you can choose to buy in after you've been sent a letter c) a protection pool of sufficient size and resources might do enough to invalidate so many patents that trolling simply becomes unprofitable. EDIT: Especially if suing a pool member poses an existential threat to the troll in the form of invalidating their entire portfolio. As Cloudflare have shown, you only need one party to stand up for themselves and contest the patents. In that case, premiums go down long-term This is obviously different from patent pooling and cross-licensing agreements companies use to defend themselves against other practicing entities.
- knodi123 9y ago
  > make it retroactive i.e. you don't have to already be a member to get protection. you can choose to buy in after you've been sent a letter So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court?
  - jogjayr 9y ago
    > So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, Plenty of people have already gotten a letter; if they all pooled their resources they'd have a decent defense fund already. > , or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court? This one, I agree, is harder. Best I can propose is a minimum 5 year membership once you've been sued. Or tweak it some other way so that membership is slightly cheaper, or about as much as, settling.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      Or, incentivize membership by having the group own a bunch of patents, and then sue people who don't pay their membership! The ultimate protection racket! "You've got a nice product here, shame if a lawsuit happened to it..." Wouldn't you know, it already exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA
iplaw 9y ago
I am guessing that, even if Blackbird motions to dismiss this lawsuit, Cloudflare will nonetheless file IPRs against each of Blackbird's 37 or 38 patents for which sufficient prior art is discovered. This appears to be more than a strategic move for this particular case on the part of Cloudflare. Cloudflare is hoping to build a reputation as 1) aggressive, 2) vindictive, and 3) successful. Believe me, other NPEs will take note and will think twice (or thrice) about suing Cloudflare out of fear of multiple defensive IPRs aimed at not only the patents in suit, but all patents utilized by the NPE in past and current litigation and licensing efforts. The NPEs, generally, have very low risk tolerance when it comes to actions which may invalidate their money-makers. Thus, Cloudflare is hoping to get blacklisted. Just look at how successful Newegg and Rackspace have been with this strategy.
- everybodyknows 9y ago
  Blackbird's founders both came from large (>1000 employee firms), and likely know all the tricks. Cloudflare mentions "outside patent counsel" https://www.cloudflare.com/priorartsearch/ https://www.cloudflare.com/priorartsearch/ Any idea who are the Cloudfare outside attorneys?
  - iplaw 9y ago
    Do not mistake employment in big law for infallible expertise. I deal with exactly this on a daily basis - patent litigation, IPRs, counter IPRs, NPEs, PEs. Regardless of their background, they do not want their assets facing IPRs. IPRs introduce delays, invalidity risks, and costs.

by jawns 9y ago

degenerate 9y ago

Yes I believe that is what Cloudflare is banking on - Blackbird backing out and no bounty money spent. I wouldn't find it too bad of an outcome though. Googling "blackbird patent" will pull up Cloudflare's blog post and other tech companies can use the same strategy against them by offering a bounty. Patent troll invalidation bounties might become a new thing. The more ways to slay the trolls the better.

openmosix 9y ago

I had the very same reaction after reading this. A long post that describes how bad patent trolls are, a general call to embrace the fight, everyone should join the fight sponsored by Cloudflare and together we can win! But, if for whatever reason Blackbird leaves us alone and they bully someone else - not our problem anymore! As someone who does not have a dog in this fight, I see no reasons to help them when it's blatantly obvious they are just fighting for themselves.

manigandham 9y ago
> I see no reasons to help them when it's blatantly obvious they are just fighting for themselves They're a business, they're supposed to fight for themselves. And the bounty is the reason to help.
- SkyMarshal 9y ago
  Fighting for themselves could also take the form of teaming up with Newegg and other active troll fighters, funding an ongoing prior art bounty together that targets the patents of known patent trolls, and keeping it going indefinitely.

topher200 9y ago

It's true that Cloudflare left themselves that loophole, but the general tone of the rest of the post seems to suggest that they're going for the throat. I wouldn't expect them to back out on paying the $50k even if the immediate withdrawal of the suit would allow them to. I get the feeling that they won't be getting sued by patent trolls again for a long time, they know that, and they'll be grinding this one into the ground as far as possible.

lordnacho 9y ago
Cloudflare has a lot of goodwill in my book. I'm sure they will come back and explain this was a miswording, and that they are happy to help even after this particular case is resolved.

jogjayr 9y ago

For smaller companies and orgs, or individual software developers, I wonder if it now makes sense to pay into some sort of common "patent troll insurance pool" (I'm sure someone's suggested this already). If any member of the pool gets sued, the pool puts out patent invalidation bounties on the troll's entire portfolio and (for an additional premium) covers part of the legal defense in case there's a trial. a) it can be structured like a credit union or something and owned by its members (reduces incentives for it to grow beyond what's necessary) b) make it retroactive i.e. you don't have to already be a member to get protection. you can choose to buy in after you've been sent a letter c) a protection pool of sufficient size and resources might do enough to invalidate so many patents that trolling simply becomes unprofitable. EDIT: Especially if suing a pool member poses an existential threat to the troll in the form of invalidating their entire portfolio. As Cloudflare have shown, you only need one party to stand up for themselves and contest the patents. In that case, premiums go down long-term This is obviously different from patent pooling and cross-licensing agreements companies use to defend themselves against other practicing entities.

knodi123 9y ago
> make it retroactive i.e. you don't have to already be a member to get protection. you can choose to buy in after you've been sent a letter So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court?
- jogjayr 9y ago
  > So why would anyone buy in before they get a letter, Plenty of people have already gotten a letter; if they all pooled their resources they'd have a decent defense fund already. > , or maintain their membership once they're no longer in court? This one, I agree, is harder. Best I can propose is a minimum 5 year membership once you've been sued. Or tweak it some other way so that membership is slightly cheaper, or about as much as, settling.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    Or, incentivize membership by having the group own a bunch of patents, and then sue people who don't pay their membership! The ultimate protection racket! "You've got a nice product here, shame if a lawsuit happened to it..." Wouldn't you know, it already exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA

iplaw 9y ago

I am guessing that, even if Blackbird motions to dismiss this lawsuit, Cloudflare will nonetheless file IPRs against each of Blackbird's 37 or 38 patents for which sufficient prior art is discovered. This appears to be more than a strategic move for this particular case on the part of Cloudflare. Cloudflare is hoping to build a reputation as 1) aggressive, 2) vindictive, and 3) successful. Believe me, other NPEs will take note and will think twice (or thrice) about suing Cloudflare out of fear of multiple defensive IPRs aimed at not only the patents in suit, but all patents utilized by the NPE in past and current litigation and licensing efforts. The NPEs, generally, have very low risk tolerance when it comes to actions which may invalidate their money-makers. Thus, Cloudflare is hoping to get blacklisted. Just look at how successful Newegg and Rackspace have been with this strategy.

everybodyknows 9y ago
Blackbird's founders both came from large (>1000 employee firms), and likely know all the tricks. Cloudflare mentions "outside patent counsel" https://www.cloudflare.com/priorartsearch/ https://www.cloudflare.com/priorartsearch/ Any idea who are the Cloudfare outside attorneys?
- iplaw 9y ago
  Do not mistake employment in big law for infallible expertise. I deal with exactly this on a daily basis - patent litigation, IPRs, counter IPRs, NPEs, PEs. Regardless of their background, they do not want their assets facing IPRs. IPRs introduce delays, invalidity risks, and costs.