7 ms·

Researchers Find Gut Bacteria Can Lead to Strokes

153 points by frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

esalazar 9y ago
I wonder if fecal transplants could prevent or hold this off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant
- WaxProlix 9y ago
  Or a diet rich in resistant starches? Higher levels of butyrate et al might help keep these B. fragilis communities in check. Or maybe not. That's sort of the kicker with gut bacteria, it's such a complex system and so hard to measure that getting at causality can be tough.
  - bodhibyte 9y ago
    Resistant starch is awesome for your good bacteria as it helps them produce butyrate and other short chain fatty acids that are really good for your gut cells. Excellent video on the subject here: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/getting-starch-to-take-the-path-of-most-resistance https://nutritionfacts.org/video/getting-starch-to-take-the-...
    - korm 9y ago
      I'd be wary of: - Someone with 2 comments in total pointing to the same site - A site called 'facts' showing a doctor selling books - A site about nutrition focusing almost entirely on veganism - A doctor who seems to push a vegan agenda and has a sort of cult following in the vegan community - Cherry picking sources. It's quite obvious from reading some of the articles, and while I don't doubt veganism is good for you, it makes me doubt the site's credibility even more.
      - MisterBastahrd 9y ago
        Vegans almost always point to that site as some sort of gospel. Meanwhile, in the real world, the conclusions of the authors of many of the studies Greger cites don't line up with the conclusions he draws from them.
      - cies 9y ago
        > Someone with 2 comments in total pointing to the same site I have some more posts here, and also refer to the site a lot. > A site called 'facts' showing a doctor selling books I think the name of the site is a pun on the label that provides some info on the macros of many packaged food products. Afaik that label is titles "nutritionfacts" in the states. The book he sells is great. Most (I guess all) of the info is also available for free on the website. And he donates the proceeds of the book. I'm also wary of doctors selling stuff (and pharma for that matter), but this guys seems not to be getting excessively rich on this. He seems intrinsically motivated. > A site about nutrition focusing almost entirely on veganism It focuses on evidence based nutrition. The doctor and his team claim to have evidence that a "whole plant food" diet is superior when it comes to preventing/reverting some diseases that are the leading killers/disablers in the western world. > A doctor who seems to push a vegan agenda and has a sort of cult following in the vegan community There's a list of prominent doctors that come to the same conclusions. Sure vegans feel at home with this narrative. But that should not make it less valuable information. > Cherry picking sources. It's quite obvious from reading some of the articles, and while I don't doubt veganism is good for you, it makes me doubt the site's credibility even more. That he (and others in this "nutrition against disease" movement) is cherry picking is often said. I believe it is hard to prove or disprove. And there is a lot of evidence that pharma is also guilty for cherry picking and manipulation. So it comes down to us having to make a choice ourselves. Who do you trust? Doctors/pharma selling chemicals without any consideration of diet, or doctors telling you to fix your diet to something "whole plant based" before trying chemicals? This is the main question for me at least.
        korm 9y ago
        I agree with your last point, it's hard to trust, which is why I err on the side of caution and try to avoid sites pushing one radical opinion over others. Paleo, vegan, atkins, there are tons of people, physicians included, insisting their research is the best. So I think it's prudent to hold a more moderate stance on nutrition, an attitude of 'we don't know, let's find out' instead of 'I know best, trust me'.
  - ar-jan 9y ago
    A recent book called The Plant Paradox argues exactly this (among many other things). (But, also see my question about the author of the book elsewhere in this thread).
Turing_Machine 9y ago
Stomach ulcers (formerly thought to be caused by stress) and chronic fatigue syndrome (formerly thought by many to be psychological) have both been linked to infections in recent years. Now strokes, and I think I've seen something about heart problems as well. I wonder how many other diseases will wind up having bacterial or viral causes.
- dekhn 9y ago
  Note that the "ulcer story" is more complicated that the mainstream story. In particular: ulcers are exacerbated by stress, so it's not completely surprising people thought they were "caused by" stress. Also, in many people, the bacteria that causes ulcers also have other protective effects (more commonly in third world countries with poor sanitation). In the case of CFS, there are probably multiple underlying etiologies, only some of which are induced by microbes.
  - dzhiurgis 9y ago
    But how does stress causes ulcers?
    - nom 9y ago
      I'd guess it's because stress weakens the immune system, thus bacteria/viruses have greater effect. AFAIK stress also increases the production of stomach acid.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      Stress (and especially sleep deprivation) has a noticeable effect on my immune system. Dunno about people in general.
      - throwfast1 9y ago
        I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis 18 years ago and can confidently say when my sleeping pattern is off for prolonged periods of time the impact is definitely visible. I do not think it is a cause but coupled with other habits , bad eating , higher stress , weaker immune system etc I find lack of sleep to be a leading indicator that I need to prioritize getting sleep quickly...or else
tudorw 9y ago
I find this a fascinating subject, it would seem our gut microbiota is a driving force of much of the bio-chemistry that we experience as consciousness, serotonin, adrenaline, dopamine, oxytocin are all influenced by the state of our gut microbiota and it's great to see so much research in this area, how we feel seems to have a lot to do with what we eat...
- pazimzadeh 9y ago
  Yes indeed. Tomorrow I'm presenting my rotation findings on outer membrane vesicle (OMV) formation in Bacteroides thetaiotaomicron in the lab of Mario Feldman. Here's a TEM image of this bacteria and its OMV's: http://imgur.com/a/oJiaT http://imgur.com/a/oJiaT The Bacteroidetes phylum make up the largest fraction of the gut microbiome. Bacteroides is the largest class of that phylum. Unlike the OMV's of other gram negative bacteria, those of Bacteroidetes are selectively packed with cargo such as sugar hydrolyzing enzymes facing the outside. This increases the surface area available for the producing cell, but also allows nearby cells to indulge on the now public goods. http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(13)01385-7 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(13)0...
  - tudorw 9y ago
    Good luck with your presentation, you're in an astounding field at an astounding time, synthetic enzymes and bacteria will I believe open a huge field in medicine. Our understanding of the human experience, understanding mind and body as fully integrated system, is making good progress.
codecamper 9y ago
eat yer yogurt folks!
- codecamper 9y ago
  I take it people here do not like yogurt.
bwb 9y ago
Small prediction - Over the next 5 years you are going to see all the media pick up gut bacteria as the next revolution of medical science as we learn how all this shit works. It is like a 2nd brain in your body and the foreign bacteria are so interesting in what they can do.
- doobiedowner 9y ago
  I'd be more willing to bet that the media will pick up on it because of advertising dollars. Companies like dupont are raking in cash on probiotics, they can't brew up enough of those little buggers.
- gukov 9y ago
  The next "whole grain."
- hd4 9y ago
  It's already happening, I actually first read about kefir (fermented milk drink with great properties for increasing gut bacteria) through the MSM a few months ago.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  'pick up gut bacteria as the next revolution of medical science as we learn how all this shit works' well, quite :D
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dghughes 9y ago
Here in Canada the CBC TV show 'The Nature of Things' recently had a show about the human gut microbiome: http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/it-takes-guts http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/it-takes-guts
neuro_imager 9y ago
This article is interesting but misleading. (I do surgeries on patients with strokes): CCMs (cavernous malformations) are vascular lesions, rare vascular lesions and relatively rarely they can bleed and cause "strokes" (as in neurological deficits in patients). However CCMs that bleed make up a minuscule fraction of a percentage of all patients who have strokes (which are generally caused by ischemia - blockages to vessels with decreased oxygenated blood to the brain). The title should read 'gut bacteria can potentially trigger rare type of brain vascular malformations'.
- Sunset 9y ago
  What's your opinion on the use of perfluorocarbons in case of ischemia?
- ar-jan 9y ago
  Can I ask your opinion on a (somewhat) related recent book? (specifically, it has examples about succesfully using diet changes instead of surgery, for people who were already scheduled to have heart surgery). Namely "The Plant Paradox" by Dr. Gundry. From what I found he is (or used to be) a well-respected heart surgeon with some influential papers on his name. But I could find just a few summary articles on his current research program, which focuses on diet, foods with lectins in particular, and their relation to auto-immune disease, obesity, heart problems, and more. I found the book very interesting, and his theories seem plausible to me (someone with no medical background whatsoever). But I also got the impression he may be overstating his case a bit, over-generalizing, so I was wondering about the opinions of medical experts on his work.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dang 9y ago
Who are we to argue with that! Changed above. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14320890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14320890 and marked it off-topic.
- hammock 9y ago
  Did you understand that? The article's title is 100% correct and did not need to be changed. Parent is making a non sequitur point that most strokes are caused by blockages, not lesions.
  - corndoge 9y ago
    A more salient point would be that the lesions rarely lead to strokes, which the parent made
  - dang 9y ago
    You people are a tough review board. How about we take 'lesions' out? Sadly I am not one of the 3 users who understand everything that gets posted here.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dharma1 9y ago
So is it a good idea to take supplementary prebiotic fibre and/or probiotics?
Boothroid 9y ago
Am I the only one that thinks medical science seems vastly behind where it ought to be? Is there something holding it back or is it just phenomenally complex and difficult?

I wonder if fecal transplants could prevent or hold this off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant

WaxProlix 9y ago
Or a diet rich in resistant starches? Higher levels of butyrate et al might help keep these B. fragilis communities in check. Or maybe not. That's sort of the kicker with gut bacteria, it's such a complex system and so hard to measure that getting at causality can be tough.
- bodhibyte 9y ago
  Resistant starch is awesome for your good bacteria as it helps them produce butyrate and other short chain fatty acids that are really good for your gut cells. Excellent video on the subject here: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/getting-starch-to-take-the-path-of-most-resistance https://nutritionfacts.org/video/getting-starch-to-take-the-...
  - korm 9y ago
    I'd be wary of: - Someone with 2 comments in total pointing to the same site - A site called 'facts' showing a doctor selling books - A site about nutrition focusing almost entirely on veganism - A doctor who seems to push a vegan agenda and has a sort of cult following in the vegan community - Cherry picking sources. It's quite obvious from reading some of the articles, and while I don't doubt veganism is good for you, it makes me doubt the site's credibility even more.
    - MisterBastahrd 9y ago
      Vegans almost always point to that site as some sort of gospel. Meanwhile, in the real world, the conclusions of the authors of many of the studies Greger cites don't line up with the conclusions he draws from them.
    - cies 9y ago
      > Someone with 2 comments in total pointing to the same site I have some more posts here, and also refer to the site a lot. > A site called 'facts' showing a doctor selling books I think the name of the site is a pun on the label that provides some info on the macros of many packaged food products. Afaik that label is titles "nutritionfacts" in the states. The book he sells is great. Most (I guess all) of the info is also available for free on the website. And he donates the proceeds of the book. I'm also wary of doctors selling stuff (and pharma for that matter), but this guys seems not to be getting excessively rich on this. He seems intrinsically motivated. > A site about nutrition focusing almost entirely on veganism It focuses on evidence based nutrition. The doctor and his team claim to have evidence that a "whole plant food" diet is superior when it comes to preventing/reverting some diseases that are the leading killers/disablers in the western world. > A doctor who seems to push a vegan agenda and has a sort of cult following in the vegan community There's a list of prominent doctors that come to the same conclusions. Sure vegans feel at home with this narrative. But that should not make it less valuable information. > Cherry picking sources. It's quite obvious from reading some of the articles, and while I don't doubt veganism is good for you, it makes me doubt the site's credibility even more. That he (and others in this "nutrition against disease" movement) is cherry picking is often said. I believe it is hard to prove or disprove. And there is a lot of evidence that pharma is also guilty for cherry picking and manipulation. So it comes down to us having to make a choice ourselves. Who do you trust? Doctors/pharma selling chemicals without any consideration of diet, or doctors telling you to fix your diet to something "whole plant based" before trying chemicals? This is the main question for me at least.
      - korm 9y ago
        I agree with your last point, it's hard to trust, which is why I err on the side of caution and try to avoid sites pushing one radical opinion over others. Paleo, vegan, atkins, there are tons of people, physicians included, insisting their research is the best. So I think it's prudent to hold a more moderate stance on nutrition, an attitude of 'we don't know, let's find out' instead of 'I know best, trust me'.
- ar-jan 9y ago
  A recent book called The Plant Paradox argues exactly this (among many other things). (But, also see my question about the author of the book elsewhere in this thread).

Turing_Machine 9y ago

Stomach ulcers (formerly thought to be caused by stress) and chronic fatigue syndrome (formerly thought by many to be psychological) have both been linked to infections in recent years. Now strokes, and I think I've seen something about heart problems as well. I wonder how many other diseases will wind up having bacterial or viral causes.

dekhn 9y ago
Note that the "ulcer story" is more complicated that the mainstream story. In particular: ulcers are exacerbated by stress, so it's not completely surprising people thought they were "caused by" stress. Also, in many people, the bacteria that causes ulcers also have other protective effects (more commonly in third world countries with poor sanitation). In the case of CFS, there are probably multiple underlying etiologies, only some of which are induced by microbes.
- dzhiurgis 9y ago
  But how does stress causes ulcers?
  - nom 9y ago
    I'd guess it's because stress weakens the immune system, thus bacteria/viruses have greater effect. AFAIK stress also increases the production of stomach acid.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    Stress (and especially sleep deprivation) has a noticeable effect on my immune system. Dunno about people in general.
    - throwfast1 9y ago
      I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis 18 years ago and can confidently say when my sleeping pattern is off for prolonged periods of time the impact is definitely visible. I do not think it is a cause but coupled with other habits , bad eating , higher stress , weaker immune system etc I find lack of sleep to be a leading indicator that I need to prioritize getting sleep quickly...or else

tudorw 9y ago

I find this a fascinating subject, it would seem our gut microbiota is a driving force of much of the bio-chemistry that we experience as consciousness, serotonin, adrenaline, dopamine, oxytocin are all influenced by the state of our gut microbiota and it's great to see so much research in this area, how we feel seems to have a lot to do with what we eat...

pazimzadeh 9y ago
Yes indeed. Tomorrow I'm presenting my rotation findings on outer membrane vesicle (OMV) formation in Bacteroides thetaiotaomicron in the lab of Mario Feldman. Here's a TEM image of this bacteria and its OMV's: http://imgur.com/a/oJiaT http://imgur.com/a/oJiaT The Bacteroidetes phylum make up the largest fraction of the gut microbiome. Bacteroides is the largest class of that phylum. Unlike the OMV's of other gram negative bacteria, those of Bacteroidetes are selectively packed with cargo such as sugar hydrolyzing enzymes facing the outside. This increases the surface area available for the producing cell, but also allows nearby cells to indulge on the now public goods. http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(13)01385-7 http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(13)0...
- tudorw 9y ago
  Good luck with your presentation, you're in an astounding field at an astounding time, synthetic enzymes and bacteria will I believe open a huge field in medicine. Our understanding of the human experience, understanding mind and body as fully integrated system, is making good progress.

codecamper 9y ago

eat yer yogurt folks!

codecamper 9y ago
I take it people here do not like yogurt.

bwb 9y ago

Small prediction - Over the next 5 years you are going to see all the media pick up gut bacteria as the next revolution of medical science as we learn how all this shit works. It is like a 2nd brain in your body and the foreign bacteria are so interesting in what they can do.

doobiedowner 9y ago
I'd be more willing to bet that the media will pick up on it because of advertising dollars. Companies like dupont are raking in cash on probiotics, they can't brew up enough of those little buggers.
gukov 9y ago
The next "whole grain."
hd4 9y ago
It's already happening, I actually first read about kefir (fermented milk drink with great properties for increasing gut bacteria) through the MSM a few months ago.
Boothroid 9y ago
'pick up gut bacteria as the next revolution of medical science as we learn how all this shit works' well, quite :D

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dghughes 9y ago

Here in Canada the CBC TV show 'The Nature of Things' recently had a show about the human gut microbiome: http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/it-takes-guts http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/it-takes-guts

neuro_imager 9y ago

This article is interesting but misleading. (I do surgeries on patients with strokes): CCMs (cavernous malformations) are vascular lesions, rare vascular lesions and relatively rarely they can bleed and cause "strokes" (as in neurological deficits in patients). However CCMs that bleed make up a minuscule fraction of a percentage of all patients who have strokes (which are generally caused by ischemia - blockages to vessels with decreased oxygenated blood to the brain). The title should read 'gut bacteria can potentially trigger rare type of brain vascular malformations'.

Sunset 9y ago
What's your opinion on the use of perfluorocarbons in case of ischemia?
ar-jan 9y ago
Can I ask your opinion on a (somewhat) related recent book? (specifically, it has examples about succesfully using diet changes instead of surgery, for people who were already scheduled to have heart surgery). Namely "The Plant Paradox" by Dr. Gundry. From what I found he is (or used to be) a well-respected heart surgeon with some influential papers on his name. But I could find just a few summary articles on his current research program, which focuses on diet, foods with lectins in particular, and their relation to auto-immune disease, obesity, heart problems, and more. I found the book very interesting, and his theories seem plausible to me (someone with no medical background whatsoever). But I also got the impression he may be overstating his case a bit, over-generalizing, so I was wondering about the opinions of medical experts on his work.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

dang 9y ago

Who are we to argue with that! Changed above. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14320890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14320890 and marked it off-topic.

hammock 9y ago
Did you understand that? The article's title is 100% correct and did not need to be changed. Parent is making a non sequitur point that most strokes are caused by blockages, not lesions.
- corndoge 9y ago
  A more salient point would be that the lesions rarely lead to strokes, which the parent made
- dang 9y ago
  You people are a tough review board. How about we take 'lesions' out? Sadly I am not one of the 3 users who understand everything that gets posted here.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

dharma1 9y ago

So is it a good idea to take supplementary prebiotic fibre and/or probiotics?

Boothroid 9y ago

Am I the only one that thinks medical science seems vastly behind where it ought to be? Is there something holding it back or is it just phenomenally complex and difficult?