6 ms·

Zero-emission autonomous ship planned to start in 2018

76 points by antr 9y ago

pdelbarba 9y ago
Anybody have range numbers on this? I doubt they're going to get very far with just batteries right now but this could be an interesting solution for ferry-type operation between local ports.
- pecangallery 9y ago
  This article gives a little bit more detail: http://newatlas.com/autonomous-electric-shipping-container-vessel/49477/ http://newatlas.com/autonomous-electric-shipping-container-v... The article says they're using this to replace an overland truck route between Porsgrunn and Larvik, Norway - roughly 25km. I'd guess the shipping route is double that?
  - pdelbarba 9y ago
    That's an awfully short route to use a ship on. I could see this being very useful for stuff like vehicle and passenger ferry transport but cargo containers seems downright ridiculous.
    - scott00 9y ago
      Their previous process was load container on truck, drive to major port, unload container from truck, load container onto a ship. The plant apparently is a small port, so the new process is load container on ship, sail ship to major port, unload container from ship, load container onto another ship. I don't see why loading and unloading a ship would be more onerous than loading and unloading a bunch of trucks. So if the ship uses less fuel than a bunch of trucks, it's a win. Why not do it?
- rtkwe 9y ago
  The closest one Brevik is about 11km by car so maybe 15km by sea and Larvik is 29km by car but around a jut of land so closer to 50-75km by sea. So over all fairly close together.
- vegardx 9y ago
  Siemens [1] recently put an all electric propulsion, battery powered ferry into operation on the Lavik-Oppedal route in Norway. So not exactly long haul, but a good demonstration on the feasibility of the technology. Hurtigruten [2] has ordered new hybrid ships that will be able to run all electric for shorter periods of time in normal cruise speeds, while operating for much longer times in fjords on slower speeds. [1] https://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pressrelease/2015/processindustries-drives/pr2015050200pden.htm&content[]=PD https://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pre... [2] https://www.hurtigruten.com/about-us/news/new-hybrid-explorer-ships/ https://www.hurtigruten.com/about-us/news/new-hybrid-explore...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
exhilaration 9y ago
No pics of a finished ship? Or even a partially completed one? Is is just vaporware at this point?
- chillax 9y ago
  According to this article (norwegian): https://www.tu.no/artikler/verdens-forste-autonome-skip-i-drift-skal-erstatte-40-000-vogntogturer-i-aret/382717 https://www.tu.no/artikler/verdens-forste-autonome-skip-i-dr... a contract should be signed this year. Delivery Q3 2018 and testing with onboard crew. Remote control from Brevik (port authority) in 2019 and fully autonomous operations from 2020. So yes, vaporware at this point, but with Kongsberg as a partner I think this will be built - for more see: https://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/597733F8A1B8C640C12580AC0049C134?OpenDocument https://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/597...
iandanforth 9y ago
Fertilizer companies have a unique incentive to fight greenhouse gas emissions. Plants grow better at higher C02 concentrations thus reducing the need for their product.
- Tsagadai 9y ago
  Except fine particulates negatively affect plant growth. Systems are complex and CO2 at levels that will greatly improve plant growth will probably kill most animal life (also mass oxygenation of the atmosphere has happened before and that was really bad for the planet too).
shipman05 9y ago
"With this vessel, Yara will reduce diesel-powered truck haulage by 40,000 journeys a year." That's a lot of jobs. No news to HN readers, but figuring out how to handle surplus labor without (often violent) societal upheaval will be the defining issue of this century.
- icefox 9y ago
  The trucking industry has a very high turnover rate so by the time this is in place it wont displace those that have jobs it will simply eliminate the need to do replacement hires.
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    And they don't all live in a town together, like workers in a coal mine or large factory, so it won't blight an entire region as the main work provider closes, and then all the secondary sources of work and income close as a result, leading to a spiral of misery. Instead the pain will be spread across the country as so be easier to absorb and rebound.
- hackuser 9y ago
  > figuring out how to handle surplus labor without (often violent) societal upheaval will be the defining issue of this century The jobs and the welfare of individuals are the top priorities IMHO, but I'm not sure there is a great problem. This isn't at all a new situation. If you look at the jobs of a century ago in advanced economies, most of them are gone yet employment now is relatively high. Just think of the homemakers who were displaced by the automation of home care (clothes washers and dryers, vacuum cleaners, etc.); that might approach half the population. There's also textiles, mining, factory work, etc. It's a regular process: Productivity improves, less labor is needed in one area, and so it shifts to something more productive. If it wasn't for that creative destruction, there would be no software developers; they'd all be in the mines and fields. What is different this time? I've heard all sorts of speculation, but I haven't heard anyone with expertise seriously analyze and address it. There are problems: To me the essential issue is that while the economy in aggregate grows through this process, individuals don't live in aggregate; they suffer (and sometimes gain) tremendously. The economy may grow 4% in aggregate, but most people don't get 4% richer; some lose 100% of a job (and house and children's education, and even healthcare in the U.S.) or gain 100% of a job. Perhaps that is no longer acceptable to us; it's not to me. The factory may move to a different part of the country, and in aggregate the economy marginally grows (there are the same number of factories in the country and we can assume it was moved to increase productivity), but all those individuals lost jobs. In addition, some research shows that a large segment of the population hasn't been getting wealthier for decades; only a few are. For example, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/08/researchers-have-answered-a-big-question-about-the-decline-of-the-middle-class/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/08/resea...
oconnore 9y ago
This is cool, but you can already have zero (net) emissions by running an existing container ship off of biodiesel or synthetic diesel. And the crews are so small relative to freight volumes that automating them won't drop costs very much.
- Klasiaster 9y ago
  Biofuel is not zero emissions, currently it is even worse because huge parts of rainforrest are burned for this monoculture farming.
  - oconnore 9y ago
    Citation? Most of the firms trying to make this work are growing algae in the desert (or the navy is just synthesizing jet fuel from sea water) -- and if companies are willing to pay for a literal boat load of Li-ion batteries, their cost/gallon is probably competitive.
    - zardo 9y ago
      >Most of the firms trying to make this work are growing algae in the desert They aren't currently producing biofuels. Current biofuels are primarily rapeseed, corn, and sugar cane based.
      - oconnore 9y ago
        It's not that they don't exist, it's that current generation tech is not economical without subsidies [that don't exist], and therefore hasn't been scaled up. And there is no way in hell that a boat filled with batteries is economical compared to one filled with bunker fuel. So if we're not doing economical, it's worth exploring other not-quite-there renewable sources -- especially since a net-zero-CO2 fuel will be more practical: big tanks are cheap, more batteries are not.
tmm 9y ago
Why not build a modern sail powered cargo vessel? A quick back of the napkin calculation puts this ship in the cargo range of a late 19th century clipper. These ships were as fast as modern diesel cargo ships, had relatively small crews (20-25), and were of course zero-emission. For a short coastal route such as this an even smaller crew could be used since you could dispense with a regular watch standing schedule. It wouldn't be autonomous, but it would be way cooler.
- vtange 9y ago
  Crew is expensive today, especially when compared to the 19th century when conditions were horrid and you could impress people into your crew.
  - Safety1stClyde 9y ago
    > compared to the 19th century when conditions were horrid and you could impress people into your crew Impressment was not used for merchant shipping.
    - jackfoxy 9y ago
      Ya wanna bet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  Why not an autonomous sailboat?
  - jpm_sd 9y ago
    Sailboats devote a lot of structure and surface area to propulsion. All that stuff gets in the way of loading and unloading containers. Also, they're slow.
    - ams6110 9y ago
alex_duf 9y ago
They don't seem to talk about energy source. Is this going to be battery powered or nuclear powered?

76 points by antr 9y ago

Anybody have range numbers on this? I doubt they're going to get very far with just batteries right now but this could be an interesting solution for ferry-type operation between local ports.

pecangallery 9y ago
This article gives a little bit more detail: http://newatlas.com/autonomous-electric-shipping-container-vessel/49477/ http://newatlas.com/autonomous-electric-shipping-container-v... The article says they're using this to replace an overland truck route between Porsgrunn and Larvik, Norway - roughly 25km. I'd guess the shipping route is double that?
- pdelbarba 9y ago
  That's an awfully short route to use a ship on. I could see this being very useful for stuff like vehicle and passenger ferry transport but cargo containers seems downright ridiculous.
  - scott00 9y ago
    Their previous process was load container on truck, drive to major port, unload container from truck, load container onto a ship. The plant apparently is a small port, so the new process is load container on ship, sail ship to major port, unload container from ship, load container onto another ship. I don't see why loading and unloading a ship would be more onerous than loading and unloading a bunch of trucks. So if the ship uses less fuel than a bunch of trucks, it's a win. Why not do it?
rtkwe 9y ago
The closest one Brevik is about 11km by car so maybe 15km by sea and Larvik is 29km by car but around a jut of land so closer to 50-75km by sea. So over all fairly close together.
vegardx 9y ago
Siemens [1] recently put an all electric propulsion, battery powered ferry into operation on the Lavik-Oppedal route in Norway. So not exactly long haul, but a good demonstration on the feasibility of the technology. Hurtigruten [2] has ordered new hybrid ships that will be able to run all electric for shorter periods of time in normal cruise speeds, while operating for much longer times in fjords on slower speeds. [1] https://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pressrelease/2015/processindustries-drives/pr2015050200pden.htm&content[]=PD https://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pre... [2] https://www.hurtigruten.com/about-us/news/new-hybrid-explorer-ships/ https://www.hurtigruten.com/about-us/news/new-hybrid-explore...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

exhilaration 9y ago

No pics of a finished ship? Or even a partially completed one? Is is just vaporware at this point?

chillax 9y ago
According to this article (norwegian): https://www.tu.no/artikler/verdens-forste-autonome-skip-i-drift-skal-erstatte-40-000-vogntogturer-i-aret/382717 https://www.tu.no/artikler/verdens-forste-autonome-skip-i-dr... a contract should be signed this year. Delivery Q3 2018 and testing with onboard crew. Remote control from Brevik (port authority) in 2019 and fully autonomous operations from 2020. So yes, vaporware at this point, but with Kongsberg as a partner I think this will be built - for more see: https://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/597733F8A1B8C640C12580AC0049C134?OpenDocument https://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web/nokbg0240.nsf/AllWeb/597...

iandanforth 9y ago

Fertilizer companies have a unique incentive to fight greenhouse gas emissions. Plants grow better at higher C02 concentrations thus reducing the need for their product.

Tsagadai 9y ago
Except fine particulates negatively affect plant growth. Systems are complex and CO2 at levels that will greatly improve plant growth will probably kill most animal life (also mass oxygenation of the atmosphere has happened before and that was really bad for the planet too).

shipman05 9y ago

"With this vessel, Yara will reduce diesel-powered truck haulage by 40,000 journeys a year." That's a lot of jobs. No news to HN readers, but figuring out how to handle surplus labor without (often violent) societal upheaval will be the defining issue of this century.

icefox 9y ago
The trucking industry has a very high turnover rate so by the time this is in place it wont displace those that have jobs it will simply eliminate the need to do replacement hires.
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  And they don't all live in a town together, like workers in a coal mine or large factory, so it won't blight an entire region as the main work provider closes, and then all the secondary sources of work and income close as a result, leading to a spiral of misery. Instead the pain will be spread across the country as so be easier to absorb and rebound.
hackuser 9y ago
> figuring out how to handle surplus labor without (often violent) societal upheaval will be the defining issue of this century The jobs and the welfare of individuals are the top priorities IMHO, but I'm not sure there is a great problem. This isn't at all a new situation. If you look at the jobs of a century ago in advanced economies, most of them are gone yet employment now is relatively high. Just think of the homemakers who were displaced by the automation of home care (clothes washers and dryers, vacuum cleaners, etc.); that might approach half the population. There's also textiles, mining, factory work, etc. It's a regular process: Productivity improves, less labor is needed in one area, and so it shifts to something more productive. If it wasn't for that creative destruction, there would be no software developers; they'd all be in the mines and fields. What is different this time? I've heard all sorts of speculation, but I haven't heard anyone with expertise seriously analyze and address it. There are problems: To me the essential issue is that while the economy in aggregate grows through this process, individuals don't live in aggregate; they suffer (and sometimes gain) tremendously. The economy may grow 4% in aggregate, but most people don't get 4% richer; some lose 100% of a job (and house and children's education, and even healthcare in the U.S.) or gain 100% of a job. Perhaps that is no longer acceptable to us; it's not to me. The factory may move to a different part of the country, and in aggregate the economy marginally grows (there are the same number of factories in the country and we can assume it was moved to increase productivity), but all those individuals lost jobs. In addition, some research shows that a large segment of the population hasn't been getting wealthier for decades; only a few are. For example, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/08/researchers-have-answered-a-big-question-about-the-decline-of-the-middle-class/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/05/08/resea...

oconnore 9y ago

This is cool, but you can already have zero (net) emissions by running an existing container ship off of biodiesel or synthetic diesel. And the crews are so small relative to freight volumes that automating them won't drop costs very much.

Klasiaster 9y ago
Biofuel is not zero emissions, currently it is even worse because huge parts of rainforrest are burned for this monoculture farming.
- oconnore 9y ago
  Citation? Most of the firms trying to make this work are growing algae in the desert (or the navy is just synthesizing jet fuel from sea water) -- and if companies are willing to pay for a literal boat load of Li-ion batteries, their cost/gallon is probably competitive.
  - zardo 9y ago
    >Most of the firms trying to make this work are growing algae in the desert They aren't currently producing biofuels. Current biofuels are primarily rapeseed, corn, and sugar cane based.
    - oconnore 9y ago
      It's not that they don't exist, it's that current generation tech is not economical without subsidies [that don't exist], and therefore hasn't been scaled up. And there is no way in hell that a boat filled with batteries is economical compared to one filled with bunker fuel. So if we're not doing economical, it's worth exploring other not-quite-there renewable sources -- especially since a net-zero-CO2 fuel will be more practical: big tanks are cheap, more batteries are not.

tmm 9y ago

Why not build a modern sail powered cargo vessel? A quick back of the napkin calculation puts this ship in the cargo range of a late 19th century clipper. These ships were as fast as modern diesel cargo ships, had relatively small crews (20-25), and were of course zero-emission. For a short coastal route such as this an even smaller crew could be used since you could dispense with a regular watch standing schedule. It wouldn't be autonomous, but it would be way cooler.

vtange 9y ago
Crew is expensive today, especially when compared to the 19th century when conditions were horrid and you could impress people into your crew.
- Safety1stClyde 9y ago
  > compared to the 19th century when conditions were horrid and you could impress people into your crew Impressment was not used for merchant shipping.
  - jackfoxy 9y ago
    Ya wanna bet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
Why not an autonomous sailboat?
- jpm_sd 9y ago
  Sailboats devote a lot of structure and surface area to propulsion. All that stuff gets in the way of loading and unloading containers. Also, they're slow.
  - ams6110 9y ago

alex_duf 9y ago

They don't seem to talk about energy source. Is this going to be battery powered or nuclear powered?