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Reign of the $100 graphing calculator is ending

64 points by lnguyen 9y ago

peatmoss 9y ago
Related story (the author describing the TI monopoly jogged my memory): I am part of the generation that was required to buy a big blue or black graphing calculator. As a high schooler I was indignant that we were being told to buy from just one company. So, based on reviews posted in a variety of online forums, I bought an HP-48 instead of the specified TI. After telling all my friends that my new calculator was going to be amazing, I got it home, pulled it out of the box, turned it on, tried to add two numbers, and failed. After the sinking feeling passed, I started in to figuring out what I had determined the root-problem was: Reverse Polish Notation. A couple years of math and physics classes were then spent trying desperately to not let on to my peers or teachers that I had no idea how to do the thing that was being taught. I'd frequently spent time scouring the Internet and HP-48 menus to replicate what I'd seen in class. But man did I love that calculator. The RPN stopped being a liability, and became an asset. And, the equation library saved my bacon on occasion.
- 2close4comfort 9y ago
  Reverse Polish Notation is AWESOME!
- wiredfool 9y ago
  My HP-28s is still on my desk. Doesn't get the use that it used to, but it's still the one that works for me.
- joezydeco 9y ago
  I still have my HP42s, wouldn't sell it for the world. Although I keep it safe in a drawer at home and use Free42 on iOS. It's incredibly handy.
- CalRobert 9y ago
  Calculators without RPN feel like a joke after an HP 48. The keys are a sheer tactile delight, too!
  - peatmoss 9y ago
    Oh yeah! The keys were amazing. They rank right up there with popping bubble wrap in terms of satisfaction they bring. They had a crazy high activation force and zero ambiguity as to whether or not they had clicked.
- fivestar 9y ago
  Yes, I used and still have the HP48SX. It got me through college as a math major and then graduate school as well. And the fact that people can't understand RPN doesn't speak well to the caliber of the students in higher education.
  - peatmoss 9y ago
    It's an interesting mental litmus test. Opposition to RPN is rarely about inability or carefully considered dislike. It's mostly about rejection of difference. Same deal with lisp syntax. Beginners take to Racket's parens easily, but (some) veteran programmers are dispositionally unwilling to even attempt to see the rationale beyond the learned aesthetics, even when there's so much to gain.
- eloisant 9y ago
  In France TI and Casio were pretty much neck-to-neck. And the occasional weird guy with his HP-48. So it wasn't a monopoly, more like a duopoly.
- kbenson 9y ago
  Similar situation here. It was... interesting going through high school and then college where they recommended a different calculator, and being one of the 1-3 people in class that didn't have the recommended[1] calculator. Certain operations took a bit longer, but also homework and tests were catered towards the known capabilities of the expected calculator, leading to a lot of manual and semi-manual solving of things other people zipped through with more calculator assistance. On one hand, that gives you a pretty good understanding of what's actually going on. You're supposed to have that anyway, but it's easy to bumble through an assignment without a firm grasp of the mechanics if you have a lot of assistance. On the other hand, it led to the time and effort for some homework assignments being high enough that I chose not to complete them and focus on other homework. 1: A Casio in high school, TI in college.
- pmarreck 9y ago
  RPN is one of those many short-but-steep learning curves that is oh so worth it once you get it (off the top of my head, regex is another)
- fn 9y ago
  Honestly I still use my HP 48GX whenever I need a calculator. It's so very useful for adding up columns of numbers when doing accounting and bookkeeping!
Edmond 9y ago
can't happen fast enough, though that is small potatoes compared to the textbook racket.
jerf 9y ago
Going digital would have some other advantages too. It would be easy to make a staged calculator where buttons only appear as you learn how to use them, for instance, so you don't stick a calculator in an Algebra II student's face that has stuff for calculus on it, which only contributes to the mystique of "math being hard". For a specialist who uses physical calculators all the time for serious computations, the advantages of a dedicated physical keyboard for your math probably can't be beat. But... uhh.... who exactly does that describe nowadays? I'm sure it's non-zero; I'm also sure we're into "niche within a niche" territory here.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Pretty much anyone working non trivially in STEM fields would find a physical calculator usefull - Acountants would be another group. Which reminds me I must see if I can get a replacement battery for my old HP RPN Calculator
  - SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
    I just use a computer, since generally I'm already using it when I have a question, it has many more resources, and it's easier to program complex calculations in.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      So do I but I find it easier some times to pull out a physical calculator and have it on the desk next to my keyboard
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Jtsummers 9y ago
      Computers aren't always available. Computers aren't as portable (though phones are as portable as these calculators). The tactile feedback of a calculator beats phones (for me) in the same way that a physical keyboard's feedback better enables touch typing compared to an on-screen keyboard. Computers don't lend themselves to being quickly pulled out in meetings for quick computations. Phones are a better alternative in many ways, but calculators do still have their benefits. What I want is a physical HP 48G-alike, with a more capable processor and display, and a better connector (serial/IR on the 48G I had, should be bluetooth and wifi and USB today) paired with an SD card for storage.
loki22 9y ago
How is replacing a offline device with a connected app better? The school boards should simply certify multiple devices for use in the exams. Hardware is primitive and some enterprising company can devise a much nicer interface and probably at 1/4th price.
- kranner 9y ago
  > How is replacing a offline device with a connected app better? For one, the web app is free. They also have free iOS and Android apps that presumably work offline.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  There are phone apps too. It is better because you don't need an ad hoc device, but you can use this multi-tool that everyone has instead.
- mcphage 9y ago
  > Hardware is primitive and some enterprising company can devise a much nicer interface and probably at 1/4th price. But nobody bothers, because they all know that HP can offer it at 1/4 the price, too—and less. Nobody touches HP's margins, because HP can survive on much smaller margins than any startup ever could. Why start a price war you could only lose?
nickcw 9y ago
When I was at school in the UK the Casio calculator reigned supreme. Luckily there is this rather nice Android App called RealCalc which emulates the kind of caclulator I used to use at school quite well! https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.nickfines.RealCalc&hl=en_GB https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.nickfine... I spent 100s of hours using that calculator so having a exact replica on my phone is very helpful. My kids use yet another different Casio calculator which continually frustrates me with its desire to represent everything as a fraction!
- Retr0spectrum 9y ago
  On the newer Casio scientific calculators, there's a button you can press to switch between fractional and decimal output. IIRC the button looks like S>D.
walshemj 9y ago
yes I can see exam boards allowing students to have access to an internet based app NOT!
- krallja 9y ago
  Many exams are conducted via computer nowadays. Presumably they would be on a local intranet, and not have access to the public internet.
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  If the exam is done on a computer (what they mean by "going digital"), they can have a local copy of the web app (on the computer or their locked down network).
- Gaelan 9y ago
  The Smarter Balanced (standardized test in must US a states now) runs online (in a custom locked-down browser), and provides Desmos as a calculator.
zafka 9y ago
I understand this intellectually, but it still makes me sad. I had to reach down into my bag, to check the number on mine: TI-85. I actually use mine occasionally. When my original one died, I picked up a used on amazon. I think I know how my old science teacher who kept a slice rule in his shirt pocket felt........
coding123 9y ago
Do you all hear that? What is it? It's the fond-memory train coming to this thread. A friend and I were programming a text-and-map based RPG on the Ti-85. It was really awesome, you could walk around on the map from town to town and enemies would find you kinda like Final Fantasy, then you fight them. Anyway we were pretty far into the game. I started programming a "Quadra Pong" game at the same time. This Quadra Pong was networked with two Ti-85s so each player would be on their own calc, connected using the connection cable (sold separately). Anyway, got pretty far in the game, but had to borrow my friends calc to test it. Something you should know about the connection cable and bugginess, is it sometimes caused both connected calculators to crash and reset. And I mean FULL reset with no memory. We lost both Quadra Pong and our RPG in one tiny scary second... still crying over that one.
- curiousGambler 9y ago
  should've used version control \s (truly sorry for your loss!)
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  On the TI-86 you could put machine code into programs (as hex strings). I lacked the cable to connect it to my PC so this was great fun. Simple calculation programs were so much faster. Until I mistyped something and bricked it, had to force a full reset (removed batteries and the watch battery). That's probably where I learned to appreciate what my parents had gone through with punch cards in the 70s, manually translating assembly to machine code.
- w3news 9y ago
  +/- 10-15 years ago i was also programming games on an Ti-83? There is a cable you can connect the calculator with the usb port of your pc. very usefull to save your games, and get even more games. There was also a program, you can program it on your computer, and than sync it to your calculator.
- jtraffic 9y ago
  Honestly, I love when the fond-memory train comes to any thread.
ericfrederich 9y ago
Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/768/ https://xkcd.com/768/
andrewclunn 9y ago
53I8008
SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
It's hard to justify a $100 calculator in the age of $100 2-in-1s.
niftich 9y ago
Contrary to what the article offhandedly suggests ("there are some drawbacks to using an online calculator on tests -- it's trickier to spot cheating, for example"), I'd wager an online-only service can be locked down in ways that the TIs couldn't be, and with considerably less manual effort. A common practice before standardized exams was resetting the RAM and the Archive, and deleting Apps; some school districts even use special Apps written for the calculator to enforce that it doesn't contain unauthorized code. Meanwhile, server-side code running somewhere else produces a clean environment for every user.
- bpicolo 9y ago
  `I'd wager an online-only service can be locked down in ways that the TIs couldn't be, and with considerably less manual effort.` But they have to either provide fully-locked-down computers or somehow lock student computers down otherwise. That sounds hard or expensive, too. If schools adopt chromebooks like mad, could work?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
upofadown 9y ago
I am not sure exactly what is being implied here. Schools are still insisting that students have to use a TI-84 but that an app of some kind that emulates a TI-84 is OK? Not sure how that makes sense if true. Do schools actually teach classes on how to use a calculator? Is this just another way that schools are not dealing with the fact that computers exist?
- tbihl 9y ago
  Based on my experiences, it's less likely "calculator class" and more likely "integrals are done by pressing shift+ln(), then right arrow to enter the limits, then comma followed by the variable" (this is an example not following any real calculator) during calculus. So rather than teaching the topic fully and then letting students figure out how to aid themselves with calculators or computers, they teach how to do the technique on the dominant calculator. So if you're not inclined to read manuals or troubleshoot or think about what you're doing, having a Casio instead of a TI would be big trouble.
jordigh 9y ago
So, why aren't they just phone apps these days? I mean, I understand why education wants these calculators, to control the students during tests. But after you leave school, why haven't calculator phone apps taken their place? Or is it because that once you leave school and you really need to do calculations, you turn to R, Matlab, or Python instead? Also, I'm surprised nobody has quoted xkcd yet: https://xkcd.com/768/ https://xkcd.com/768/ Edit: I know phone apps exist. I am just wondering why they don't seem to be more popular. Or are they gaining popularity I'm not seeing?
- himandey 9y ago
  If you have an android phone you can download Graph 89 Free for a fully functioning ti-89 emulator. All you need is the ROM provided by Ti and you're golden!
- tonyztan 9y ago
  Wabbitemu allows you to emulate certain TI calculators (including the TI-84) on your Android device. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Revsoft.Wabbitemu https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Revsoft.Wa...
- justinclift 9y ago
  Desmos does have iOS and Android versions: • https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/desmos-graphing-calculator/id653517540 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/desmos-graphing-calculator/i... • https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.desmos.calculator https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.desmos.cal... The article probably should have mentioned that. :)
- misingnoglic 9y ago
  The problem with phones is policing cheating and goofing off.
- pwg 9y ago
  > So, why aren't they just phone apps these days? Some are: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hp.hp15c15&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hp.hp15c15... But the "magic" with the TI-84 series was not the calculator itself. It was TI's excellent marketing where (nearly) every school district, plus the SAT group, were all convinced that this particular calculator was "ok" and all others were "not ok". With the end result of a guaranteed market for TI for this calculator, without having to compete with any other manufacturers. I.e., they (TI) managed to create a 'legal' monopoly by convincing the govt. agencies to only allow this one calculator in class and during tests.
samfisher83 9y ago
I think one of the reasons why many teachers prefer the old ti83 it is because it isn't online. They don't want people cheating. Some classes you could only have a basic scientific calculator. In a lot of my college classes they just didn't let you use a graphing calculator since you could put a notes in there. Some classes just banned calculators. I just have a hard time believe schools and teachers will allow interned connected devices on tests.
- theandrewbailey 9y ago
  Did you even read down to the part about the SAT and ACT?
nsxwolf 9y ago
Part of me loves that there's still a pricey 48K Z80 machine out there.
im_down_w_otp 9y ago
I'm going to be buried with my HP48G. There will be no prying it from any cold, dead, or otherwise described hands.
dade_ 9y ago
Looks like a marketing campaign to me. It would make much more sense to replace the calculator with an app that works offline. As a student, I wouldn't trust I have Internet. As a school, I wouldn't trust students aren't cheating.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
CyberDildonics 9y ago
The real travesty here is that calculators cost $100 USD. They have a Z80, some buttons wired up, and a very low res LCD screen. Students should be BUILDING these in their engineering classes. They must cost only a few dollars to make, it's disgusting that they cost so much because of forced lock in and requirements. Maybe one of the first applications of RISC-V should be a fully open source graphing calculator. Then anyone could build one to the same spec and they would be cheap + help open source hardware.
- pflats 9y ago
  Hey now, the newest TI 84s use the eZ80!
VLM 9y ago
I find it interesting that all students had to pay $80 out of pocket for our TI-81 but the same school district a generation later hands out $800 ipads to entire classes like they're candy. I used the same TI-81 from 7th thru 12th grade which was 6 years, but the refresh for ipads at the same district is a mere 4 years. I can't help but notice the TI-81 was essentially kid proof and indestructible but the ipad is (intentionally) very delicate to drive sales. Finally I think I used my TI-81 in math and science classes more hours per year than my son uses his ipad. Mostly we used the 81 to do math, mostly my son's school issued ipad is for "downtime" gaming (minecraft) and youtube watching with some casual internet surfing. The tone of the article implies the $100 graphing calculator was a bad era, but its worth considering things have gotten much worse, not improved at all.
douche 9y ago
I think the only thing I learned in four years of high school math was how to screw around and graph functions on a TI-83. Aside from how to use the calculator, we didn't cover anything that wasn't in the Saxon Algebra 1 book between 8th grade and 12th grade AP Calculus. What a waste of so many hours...
pflats 9y ago
No, it's not. I love Desmos. It's a great tool for the classroom. I use it whenever I can. It's also not a replacement for a handheld calculator. If the internet goes out, you lose your calculator. If it is working, then you're policing students to make sure that they're using their device for calculation. If it is working and you have the best students in the world or a locked-down network, it's still slower, less precise, and more annoying to use a calculator with virtual buttons than a handheld calculator with physical buttons. Because of the nature of classroom instruction, there was almost always going to be at least local monopolies on calculators. If you're reading HN, you probably didn't struggle to figure out a graphing calculator. Many students do. Part of a lesson is often teaching students how to use a calculator, and it is far easier to only give a single set of instructions. Regardless of how well you have the other students working independently and how well the teacher knows all three+ calculator brands, the most valuable resource in a class is teacher time and attention. If a teacher spends 15 minutes explaining how to use a calculator instead of 5, that's 10 minutes of class time that students don't have access to the teacher to learn math. That adds up quickly. As a result, most schools decide, independently of any marketing, to standardize on a single calculator. As the article notes, TI got to where it is because it spent a lot of money supporting teachers for free. Momentum took it from there. On top of all that, the other thing a lot of people overlook re: the TI-84 family (and other handheld calculators) is how fast it is. Not the processor, but the speed at which it gets you an answer. It powers on and is instantly ready to go. You don't get that with any computer solution. Shared devices have to be logged into. Browsers have to open. Web apps have to load. TI also has a new classroom calculator with an ARM processor and a bunch of other features, the NSpire. It's sold at about the same price points as an 84. Most teachers I talked to found it infuriating: you hit the power button, and you have to wait a few seconds for it to boot. Then when it does, it loads a menu screen where you can choose if you want to do calculations or something else. The old hardware just worked: you hit on, and before you can touch another key, it's ready to go.
logfromblammo 9y ago
Schools are still stuck in the past in regard to "cheating". I recall reading a rant on the Internet--I forgot where--about how the real cheat is when a teacher gives the same exam to every student, year after year. In the future, everyone will be connected to the Internet constantly, including students. We are close to that now. I can look up any obscure bit of information in only a few moments. Expecting students of the future to take a test without that digital link to everyone and everything is like teaching someone to juggle, and then making them tie one hand to the opposite foot for the test. It's ridiculous--almost like asking algorithmic questions for the whiteboard interview. No, I didn't memorize forever the big-O for eight different sorting algorithms, because I have been using Internet search engines since AltaVista, and card catalogs and textbook indexes before that. The era when someone had to become his own information library, with comprehensive index, to be good at his job has been over for a long, long time. So I think the burden is on teachers and testers to devise new methods of testing that make instant information lookup and collaboration entirely irrelevant to the methods of student evaluation. Make "cheating" an optional feature rather than a bug. I think in the short term that means that tests will have to be time-limited and questions will have to be procedurally generated, and unique to each test-taker. And further, the questions will have to be structured such that they can't be solved by just copy-pasting them into a search box. I recall how I programmed my TI-85 to show "Mem cleared Defaults set" before my exams. It wasn't because I wanted to cheat, but because I didn't want to lose the other programs I wrote just because some teacher didn't trust me. Obviously, someone else could have easily done the same to protect a crib sheet or answer key. When your school system mandates that every student have the same calculators, that type of cheat only becomes more common. The teachers that wrote their exams as "open textbook" never needed to worry about crib sheets. They wouldn't care if you memorized the image of the required pages, or just the page numbers, or just the index key, so long as you could get the correct answers before the end of class. The tests I took in school are obsolete. No school should be trying to extend their lifespan by creating administrative calculator monopolies and arbitrarily blocking newer technologies. Welcome yourself to the 21st century and write better tests.
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  I partly agree with you, a lot of tests (probably the majority) are bad tests. Many test on memorization rather than comprehension. But tests with a focus on comprehension are valuable evaluation tools, and access to the internet would break that without going to particularly contrived problem sets. The purpose of an education is to understand the topics (language, math, science, art), not the tools (as in specific mechanical or informational aids). Making them (too) available during evaluations like exams and tests would only show that students were able to put something into Mathematica and get a result, not that they understood what they were doing.
kwhitefoot 9y ago
I'm heartily glad that I went to school before calculators were available. As far as I can see they are just a distraction. How is a calculator useful for learning calculus?

64 points by lnguyen 9y ago

Related story (the author describing the TI monopoly jogged my memory): I am part of the generation that was required to buy a big blue or black graphing calculator. As a high schooler I was indignant that we were being told to buy from just one company. So, based on reviews posted in a variety of online forums, I bought an HP-48 instead of the specified TI. After telling all my friends that my new calculator was going to be amazing, I got it home, pulled it out of the box, turned it on, tried to add two numbers, and failed. After the sinking feeling passed, I started in to figuring out what I had determined the root-problem was: Reverse Polish Notation. A couple years of math and physics classes were then spent trying desperately to not let on to my peers or teachers that I had no idea how to do the thing that was being taught. I'd frequently spent time scouring the Internet and HP-48 menus to replicate what I'd seen in class. But man did I love that calculator. The RPN stopped being a liability, and became an asset. And, the equation library saved my bacon on occasion.

2close4comfort 9y ago
Reverse Polish Notation is AWESOME!
wiredfool 9y ago
My HP-28s is still on my desk. Doesn't get the use that it used to, but it's still the one that works for me.
joezydeco 9y ago
I still have my HP42s, wouldn't sell it for the world. Although I keep it safe in a drawer at home and use Free42 on iOS. It's incredibly handy.
CalRobert 9y ago
Calculators without RPN feel like a joke after an HP 48. The keys are a sheer tactile delight, too!
- peatmoss 9y ago
  Oh yeah! The keys were amazing. They rank right up there with popping bubble wrap in terms of satisfaction they bring. They had a crazy high activation force and zero ambiguity as to whether or not they had clicked.
fivestar 9y ago
Yes, I used and still have the HP48SX. It got me through college as a math major and then graduate school as well. And the fact that people can't understand RPN doesn't speak well to the caliber of the students in higher education.
- peatmoss 9y ago
  It's an interesting mental litmus test. Opposition to RPN is rarely about inability or carefully considered dislike. It's mostly about rejection of difference. Same deal with lisp syntax. Beginners take to Racket's parens easily, but (some) veteran programmers are dispositionally unwilling to even attempt to see the rationale beyond the learned aesthetics, even when there's so much to gain.
eloisant 9y ago
In France TI and Casio were pretty much neck-to-neck. And the occasional weird guy with his HP-48. So it wasn't a monopoly, more like a duopoly.
kbenson 9y ago
Similar situation here. It was... interesting going through high school and then college where they recommended a different calculator, and being one of the 1-3 people in class that didn't have the recommended[1] calculator. Certain operations took a bit longer, but also homework and tests were catered towards the known capabilities of the expected calculator, leading to a lot of manual and semi-manual solving of things other people zipped through with more calculator assistance. On one hand, that gives you a pretty good understanding of what's actually going on. You're supposed to have that anyway, but it's easy to bumble through an assignment without a firm grasp of the mechanics if you have a lot of assistance. On the other hand, it led to the time and effort for some homework assignments being high enough that I chose not to complete them and focus on other homework. 1: A Casio in high school, TI in college.
pmarreck 9y ago
RPN is one of those many short-but-steep learning curves that is oh so worth it once you get it (off the top of my head, regex is another)
fn 9y ago
Honestly I still use my HP 48GX whenever I need a calculator. It's so very useful for adding up columns of numbers when doing accounting and bookkeeping!

Edmond 9y ago

can't happen fast enough, though that is small potatoes compared to the textbook racket.

jerf 9y ago

Going digital would have some other advantages too. It would be easy to make a staged calculator where buttons only appear as you learn how to use them, for instance, so you don't stick a calculator in an Algebra II student's face that has stuff for calculus on it, which only contributes to the mystique of "math being hard". For a specialist who uses physical calculators all the time for serious computations, the advantages of a dedicated physical keyboard for your math probably can't be beat. But... uhh.... who exactly does that describe nowadays? I'm sure it's non-zero; I'm also sure we're into "niche within a niche" territory here.

walshemj 9y ago
Pretty much anyone working non trivially in STEM fields would find a physical calculator usefull - Acountants would be another group. Which reminds me I must see if I can get a replacement battery for my old HP RPN Calculator
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
  I just use a computer, since generally I'm already using it when I have a question, it has many more resources, and it's easier to program complex calculations in.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    So do I but I find it easier some times to pull out a physical calculator and have it on the desk next to my keyboard
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jtsummers 9y ago
    Computers aren't always available. Computers aren't as portable (though phones are as portable as these calculators). The tactile feedback of a calculator beats phones (for me) in the same way that a physical keyboard's feedback better enables touch typing compared to an on-screen keyboard. Computers don't lend themselves to being quickly pulled out in meetings for quick computations. Phones are a better alternative in many ways, but calculators do still have their benefits. What I want is a physical HP 48G-alike, with a more capable processor and display, and a better connector (serial/IR on the 48G I had, should be bluetooth and wifi and USB today) paired with an SD card for storage.

loki22 9y ago

How is replacing a offline device with a connected app better? The school boards should simply certify multiple devices for use in the exams. Hardware is primitive and some enterprising company can devise a much nicer interface and probably at 1/4th price.

kranner 9y ago
> How is replacing a offline device with a connected app better? For one, the web app is free. They also have free iOS and Android apps that presumably work offline.
adamnemecek 9y ago
There are phone apps too. It is better because you don't need an ad hoc device, but you can use this multi-tool that everyone has instead.
mcphage 9y ago
> Hardware is primitive and some enterprising company can devise a much nicer interface and probably at 1/4th price. But nobody bothers, because they all know that HP can offer it at 1/4 the price, too—and less. Nobody touches HP's margins, because HP can survive on much smaller margins than any startup ever could. Why start a price war you could only lose?

nickcw 9y ago

When I was at school in the UK the Casio calculator reigned supreme. Luckily there is this rather nice Android App called RealCalc which emulates the kind of caclulator I used to use at school quite well! https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.nickfines.RealCalc&hl=en_GB https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.nickfine... I spent 100s of hours using that calculator so having a exact replica on my phone is very helpful. My kids use yet another different Casio calculator which continually frustrates me with its desire to represent everything as a fraction!

Retr0spectrum 9y ago
On the newer Casio scientific calculators, there's a button you can press to switch between fractional and decimal output. IIRC the button looks like S>D.

walshemj 9y ago

yes I can see exam boards allowing students to have access to an internet based app NOT!

krallja 9y ago
Many exams are conducted via computer nowadays. Presumably they would be on a local intranet, and not have access to the public internet.
Jtsummers 9y ago
If the exam is done on a computer (what they mean by "going digital"), they can have a local copy of the web app (on the computer or their locked down network).
Gaelan 9y ago
The Smarter Balanced (standardized test in must US a states now) runs online (in a custom locked-down browser), and provides Desmos as a calculator.

zafka 9y ago

I understand this intellectually, but it still makes me sad. I had to reach down into my bag, to check the number on mine: TI-85. I actually use mine occasionally. When my original one died, I picked up a used on amazon. I think I know how my old science teacher who kept a slice rule in his shirt pocket felt........

coding123 9y ago

Do you all hear that? What is it? It's the fond-memory train coming to this thread. A friend and I were programming a text-and-map based RPG on the Ti-85. It was really awesome, you could walk around on the map from town to town and enemies would find you kinda like Final Fantasy, then you fight them. Anyway we were pretty far into the game. I started programming a "Quadra Pong" game at the same time. This Quadra Pong was networked with two Ti-85s so each player would be on their own calc, connected using the connection cable (sold separately). Anyway, got pretty far in the game, but had to borrow my friends calc to test it. Something you should know about the connection cable and bugginess, is it sometimes caused both connected calculators to crash and reset. And I mean FULL reset with no memory. We lost both Quadra Pong and our RPG in one tiny scary second... still crying over that one.

curiousGambler 9y ago
should've used version control \s (truly sorry for your loss!)
Jtsummers 9y ago
On the TI-86 you could put machine code into programs (as hex strings). I lacked the cable to connect it to my PC so this was great fun. Simple calculation programs were so much faster. Until I mistyped something and bricked it, had to force a full reset (removed batteries and the watch battery). That's probably where I learned to appreciate what my parents had gone through with punch cards in the 70s, manually translating assembly to machine code.
w3news 9y ago
+/- 10-15 years ago i was also programming games on an Ti-83? There is a cable you can connect the calculator with the usb port of your pc. very usefull to save your games, and get even more games. There was also a program, you can program it on your computer, and than sync it to your calculator.
jtraffic 9y ago
Honestly, I love when the fond-memory train comes to any thread.

ericfrederich 9y ago

Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/768/ https://xkcd.com/768/

andrewclunn 9y ago

53I8008

SomeStupidPoint 9y ago

It's hard to justify a $100 calculator in the age of $100 2-in-1s.

niftich 9y ago

Contrary to what the article offhandedly suggests ("there are some drawbacks to using an online calculator on tests -- it's trickier to spot cheating, for example"), I'd wager an online-only service can be locked down in ways that the TIs couldn't be, and with considerably less manual effort. A common practice before standardized exams was resetting the RAM and the Archive, and deleting Apps; some school districts even use special Apps written for the calculator to enforce that it doesn't contain unauthorized code. Meanwhile, server-side code running somewhere else produces a clean environment for every user.

bpicolo 9y ago
`I'd wager an online-only service can be locked down in ways that the TIs couldn't be, and with considerably less manual effort.` But they have to either provide fully-locked-down computers or somehow lock student computers down otherwise. That sounds hard or expensive, too. If schools adopt chromebooks like mad, could work?
deleted 9y ago
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upofadown 9y ago

I am not sure exactly what is being implied here. Schools are still insisting that students have to use a TI-84 but that an app of some kind that emulates a TI-84 is OK? Not sure how that makes sense if true. Do schools actually teach classes on how to use a calculator? Is this just another way that schools are not dealing with the fact that computers exist?

tbihl 9y ago
Based on my experiences, it's less likely "calculator class" and more likely "integrals are done by pressing shift+ln(), then right arrow to enter the limits, then comma followed by the variable" (this is an example not following any real calculator) during calculus. So rather than teaching the topic fully and then letting students figure out how to aid themselves with calculators or computers, they teach how to do the technique on the dominant calculator. So if you're not inclined to read manuals or troubleshoot or think about what you're doing, having a Casio instead of a TI would be big trouble.

jordigh 9y ago

So, why aren't they just phone apps these days? I mean, I understand why education wants these calculators, to control the students during tests. But after you leave school, why haven't calculator phone apps taken their place? Or is it because that once you leave school and you really need to do calculations, you turn to R, Matlab, or Python instead? Also, I'm surprised nobody has quoted xkcd yet: https://xkcd.com/768/ https://xkcd.com/768/ Edit: I know phone apps exist. I am just wondering why they don't seem to be more popular. Or are they gaining popularity I'm not seeing?

himandey 9y ago
If you have an android phone you can download Graph 89 Free for a fully functioning ti-89 emulator. All you need is the ROM provided by Ti and you're golden!
tonyztan 9y ago
Wabbitemu allows you to emulate certain TI calculators (including the TI-84) on your Android device. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Revsoft.Wabbitemu https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Revsoft.Wa...
justinclift 9y ago
Desmos does have iOS and Android versions: • https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/desmos-graphing-calculator/id653517540 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/desmos-graphing-calculator/i... • https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.desmos.calculator https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.desmos.cal... The article probably should have mentioned that. :)
misingnoglic 9y ago
The problem with phones is policing cheating and goofing off.
pwg 9y ago
> So, why aren't they just phone apps these days? Some are: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hp.hp15c15&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hp.hp15c15... But the "magic" with the TI-84 series was not the calculator itself. It was TI's excellent marketing where (nearly) every school district, plus the SAT group, were all convinced that this particular calculator was "ok" and all others were "not ok". With the end result of a guaranteed market for TI for this calculator, without having to compete with any other manufacturers. I.e., they (TI) managed to create a 'legal' monopoly by convincing the govt. agencies to only allow this one calculator in class and during tests.

samfisher83 9y ago

I think one of the reasons why many teachers prefer the old ti83 it is because it isn't online. They don't want people cheating. Some classes you could only have a basic scientific calculator. In a lot of my college classes they just didn't let you use a graphing calculator since you could put a notes in there. Some classes just banned calculators. I just have a hard time believe schools and teachers will allow interned connected devices on tests.

theandrewbailey 9y ago
Did you even read down to the part about the SAT and ACT?

nsxwolf 9y ago

Part of me loves that there's still a pricey 48K Z80 machine out there.

im_down_w_otp 9y ago

I'm going to be buried with my HP48G. There will be no prying it from any cold, dead, or otherwise described hands.

dade_ 9y ago

Looks like a marketing campaign to me. It would make much more sense to replace the calculator with an app that works offline. As a student, I wouldn't trust I have Internet. As a school, I wouldn't trust students aren't cheating.

deleted 9y ago

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CyberDildonics 9y ago

The real travesty here is that calculators cost $100 USD. They have a Z80, some buttons wired up, and a very low res LCD screen. Students should be BUILDING these in their engineering classes. They must cost only a few dollars to make, it's disgusting that they cost so much because of forced lock in and requirements. Maybe one of the first applications of RISC-V should be a fully open source graphing calculator. Then anyone could build one to the same spec and they would be cheap + help open source hardware.

pflats 9y ago
Hey now, the newest TI 84s use the eZ80!

VLM 9y ago

I find it interesting that all students had to pay $80 out of pocket for our TI-81 but the same school district a generation later hands out $800 ipads to entire classes like they're candy. I used the same TI-81 from 7th thru 12th grade which was 6 years, but the refresh for ipads at the same district is a mere 4 years. I can't help but notice the TI-81 was essentially kid proof and indestructible but the ipad is (intentionally) very delicate to drive sales. Finally I think I used my TI-81 in math and science classes more hours per year than my son uses his ipad. Mostly we used the 81 to do math, mostly my son's school issued ipad is for "downtime" gaming (minecraft) and youtube watching with some casual internet surfing. The tone of the article implies the $100 graphing calculator was a bad era, but its worth considering things have gotten much worse, not improved at all.

douche 9y ago

I think the only thing I learned in four years of high school math was how to screw around and graph functions on a TI-83. Aside from how to use the calculator, we didn't cover anything that wasn't in the Saxon Algebra 1 book between 8th grade and 12th grade AP Calculus. What a waste of so many hours...

pflats 9y ago

No, it's not. I love Desmos. It's a great tool for the classroom. I use it whenever I can. It's also not a replacement for a handheld calculator. If the internet goes out, you lose your calculator. If it is working, then you're policing students to make sure that they're using their device for calculation. If it is working and you have the best students in the world or a locked-down network, it's still slower, less precise, and more annoying to use a calculator with virtual buttons than a handheld calculator with physical buttons. Because of the nature of classroom instruction, there was almost always going to be at least local monopolies on calculators. If you're reading HN, you probably didn't struggle to figure out a graphing calculator. Many students do. Part of a lesson is often teaching students how to use a calculator, and it is far easier to only give a single set of instructions. Regardless of how well you have the other students working independently and how well the teacher knows all three+ calculator brands, the most valuable resource in a class is teacher time and attention. If a teacher spends 15 minutes explaining how to use a calculator instead of 5, that's 10 minutes of class time that students don't have access to the teacher to learn math. That adds up quickly. As a result, most schools decide, independently of any marketing, to standardize on a single calculator. As the article notes, TI got to where it is because it spent a lot of money supporting teachers for free. Momentum took it from there. On top of all that, the other thing a lot of people overlook re: the TI-84 family (and other handheld calculators) is how fast it is. Not the processor, but the speed at which it gets you an answer. It powers on and is instantly ready to go. You don't get that with any computer solution. Shared devices have to be logged into. Browsers have to open. Web apps have to load. TI also has a new classroom calculator with an ARM processor and a bunch of other features, the NSpire. It's sold at about the same price points as an 84. Most teachers I talked to found it infuriating: you hit the power button, and you have to wait a few seconds for it to boot. Then when it does, it loads a menu screen where you can choose if you want to do calculations or something else. The old hardware just worked: you hit on, and before you can touch another key, it's ready to go.

logfromblammo 9y ago

Schools are still stuck in the past in regard to "cheating". I recall reading a rant on the Internet--I forgot where--about how the real cheat is when a teacher gives the same exam to every student, year after year. In the future, everyone will be connected to the Internet constantly, including students. We are close to that now. I can look up any obscure bit of information in only a few moments. Expecting students of the future to take a test without that digital link to everyone and everything is like teaching someone to juggle, and then making them tie one hand to the opposite foot for the test. It's ridiculous--almost like asking algorithmic questions for the whiteboard interview. No, I didn't memorize forever the big-O for eight different sorting algorithms, because I have been using Internet search engines since AltaVista, and card catalogs and textbook indexes before that. The era when someone had to become his own information library, with comprehensive index, to be good at his job has been over for a long, long time. So I think the burden is on teachers and testers to devise new methods of testing that make instant information lookup and collaboration entirely irrelevant to the methods of student evaluation. Make "cheating" an optional feature rather than a bug. I think in the short term that means that tests will have to be time-limited and questions will have to be procedurally generated, and unique to each test-taker. And further, the questions will have to be structured such that they can't be solved by just copy-pasting them into a search box. I recall how I programmed my TI-85 to show "Mem cleared Defaults set" before my exams. It wasn't because I wanted to cheat, but because I didn't want to lose the other programs I wrote just because some teacher didn't trust me. Obviously, someone else could have easily done the same to protect a crib sheet or answer key. When your school system mandates that every student have the same calculators, that type of cheat only becomes more common. The teachers that wrote their exams as "open textbook" never needed to worry about crib sheets. They wouldn't care if you memorized the image of the required pages, or just the page numbers, or just the index key, so long as you could get the correct answers before the end of class. The tests I took in school are obsolete. No school should be trying to extend their lifespan by creating administrative calculator monopolies and arbitrarily blocking newer technologies. Welcome yourself to the 21st century and write better tests.

Jtsummers 9y ago
I partly agree with you, a lot of tests (probably the majority) are bad tests. Many test on memorization rather than comprehension. But tests with a focus on comprehension are valuable evaluation tools, and access to the internet would break that without going to particularly contrived problem sets. The purpose of an education is to understand the topics (language, math, science, art), not the tools (as in specific mechanical or informational aids). Making them (too) available during evaluations like exams and tests would only show that students were able to put something into Mathematica and get a result, not that they understood what they were doing.

kwhitefoot 9y ago

I'm heartily glad that I went to school before calculators were available. As far as I can see they are just a distraction. How is a calculator useful for learning calculus?