18 ms·

Jeff Varasano's Famous New York Pizza Recipe (2008)

350 points by benbreen 9y ago

tomglynch 9y ago
This is ridiculously in depth
- dsr_ 9y ago
  Which is why it's suitable for Hacker News. Varasano's a pizza hacker.
tribby 9y ago
surprised to see this here, but it doesn't have style sheets, so maybe not too surprised ;) jeff varasano's website is a great resource for pizza hackers and lays a lot of myths to rest (like proofing). my own process (which I cook in a blackstone pizza oven at ~800°) has a bit more in common with tony gemignani's basic neopolitan (described in his pizza bible), with the addition of the earlier and longer autolysing period used by jeff. the difference is night and day and I wish I'd learned about it a lot sooner! if you're in the bay area and this kind of pizza is your thing, be sure to check out the following places -- SF: pizzetta 211, una pizza napoletana, tony's, firetrail, a16 oakland: boot & shoe, pizzaiolo, also a16 berkeley: lucia's, emilia's on that list, emilia's is far and away my favorite. it's a one man operation, dirt cheap ($21 tax included for an 18" pie), and just impossibly good. he gave me some of his sourdough starter once, and killing it rather quickly is one of my greatest regrets.
- jclem 9y ago
  Pizzaiolo is good, reminded me of Paulie Gee's and Speedy Romeo, both of which are places in Brooklyn I really like. I always find Una Pizza Napoletana extremely soft and doughy, and personally I think it's really overrated. Maybe I've just gotten bad pies on the two occasions I've tried it.
  - subpixel 9y ago
    I agree - not about Una Pizza in particular but about the Neopolitan style in general. When pizza crust resembles naan (overly soft, pliable after baking) things have gone too far.
    - shaklee3 9y ago
      This is from the Italian 00 flour. I think it's a nice alternative.
      - blehn 9y ago
        It's not from the flour — most of those other places use 00 flour as well. It's from the dough not being stretched as thin.
        shaklee3 9y ago
        It's from the flour.
  - diego_moita 9y ago
    > Una Pizza Napoletana extremely soft and doughy This is just hilarious. Compared to NY pizza, "soft and doughy" is what most pizzas in Naples and Rome are. That's precisely the original concept.
    - jclem 9y ago
      I'm not comparing it to "NY pizza", if you're referring to common pizzeria pizza. Compared to other Neapolitan pizzas, I have found Una Pizza Napoletana to be really doughy, even on the outside.
- colordrops 9y ago
  Any recommendations for L.A.?
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    California Pizza Kitchen
  - getpost 9y ago
    http://www.lodgebread.com/ http://www.lodgebread.com/ http://www.sottorestaurant.com/ http://www.sottorestaurant.com/ http://pizzeriamozza.com/ http://pizzeriamozza.com/ http://www.miloandolive.com/ http://www.miloandolive.com/ http://felixla.com/ http://felixla.com/ http://fahrenheitla.com/ http://fahrenheitla.com/ new/haven't tried/coming soon: http://www.slowrisepizza.com/ http://www.slowrisepizza.com/ http://pizzana.com/ http://pizzana.com/
  - archagon 9y ago
    I've only been once, but Mozza is fantastic (if a bit unorthodox). They have a bar special where you can get a pizza, glass of wine, and dessert for $30. It used to be an insane $20, but it's still a bargain when you consider that some of their pizzas cost $20+ and their desserts are in the $10 range.
  - tdumitrescu 9y ago
    On a recent trip I discovered DeSano, which was awesome. Some of the most realistic Neapolitan I've found in the states.
- batbomb 9y ago
  If Pizzetta is packed, you can walk down the street to Fiorella too. Il Casaro is good too. Pizzetta has the most flavorful and distinct/seasonal toppings, but the crust is better at some other places.
- archagon 9y ago
  +1 for Emilia's (just don't forgot to call ahead), adding Casey's (one of the best pizzas I've had on any coast) and Pizza Hacker (though it has a bit of California flair). I'm so happy the East Coast no longer has a monopoly on amazing pizza! I'm not the biggest fan of Tony's margherita, but it seems the dude can make a perfect pizza in practically any style. Capo's is the best deep dish pizza I've ever had, including Chicago!
  - mikeryan 9y ago
    Is there a way to hack that line for Emilia's? I start dialing at 4pm and get a 7:30pm pie.... Awesome place though - totally worth it. Between Emilia's the Cheeseboard and Zachary's Berkeley has a pretty awesome choice of Pizza. Boot and Shoe is also opening a location on Shattuck ....
    - archagon 9y ago
      Also Artichoke Basille! Not fancy at all, but it's a real NY chain and they have authentic-tasting slices and Sicilian squares. (Plus monstrosities like their artichoke pizza, but I admit it's an occasional guilty pleasure...)
      - simtel20 9y ago
        Unlike the OP dough, the pizzas at artichokes in NYC has always been mediocre. Going west on 14th st to the Joe's will get a better crisp slice in a hotter oven. I can't imagine that they are better in SF if that's what we're talking about, but I guess it's possible.
        archagon 9y ago
        Yes — but we don't get a lot of genuine NY slices over here on the West Coast!
    - tribby 9y ago
      there are in fact a few emilia's hacks and secrets -- but I can't share them here! the most important one is getting to know keith :) berkeley does indeed have good pizza. outside the neopolitan pizzerias, gioia is excellent, arinell is one of my favorites for a NY slice (same as the one on 16th & valencia), and artichoke basille's isn't great but for a gigantic margherita slice at 3am, I'll take it! make sure to check out benchmark in kensingson (basically berkeley) too.
- crsmith 9y ago
  SF: Del Popolo
- damnfinecoffee 9y ago
  Have you found any good places in the south bay? I have so far been unsuccessful and would love an option that doesn't require a trip into the city
- ccmonnett 9y ago
  Awesome! I saved every one since I've never been to any... can you do the South Bay/Peninsula (anyone else too)? About the OP: I effing _love_ pizza but struggle to make it at home. The quality and quantity of knowledge in this post is fantastic!
  - archagon 9y ago
    Pizza Bocca Lupo in San Jose is good and pretty inexpensive!
  - someheavyocean 9y ago
    Bibo's NY Pizza on Bird in San Jose is amazing.
MikeTaylor 9y ago
Folks who know pizza: What can those us with regular ovens do? You know, the sort of oven you find in most kitchens that top out at 250C (500F)?
- markild 9y ago
  I will not claim to honestly "know" pizza, but in my experience, turning your oven up to max with a baking steel (or stone), can give great results, without the need of anything that breaks the bank.
- dsr_ 9y ago
  1. Make great dough. The ingredients are cheap, it doesn't take much manual time -- but you want to let it ferment in your refrigerator at least overnight. 2. Make your own sauce. The ingredients are cheap, and a little experimentation will get it to the taste that you want. 3. Don't overtop it. The natural tendency is to want more - more sauce, more cheese, more whatever else. Start off very simply. Scatter little bits. 4. Transfer as much heat as possible to the bottom of your crust. You can use a baking steel, a pizza stone, or unglazed fire tiles available for less than $10 at your local hardware store. Put them in the oven exactly where you want your pizza to go, then fire it all the way up. 5. Experiment. The first few pizzas you make will vary wildly from "almost what I want" to "maybe I shouldn't make pizza". Keep going. Take notes. And if you don't have an oven at all, consider getting a cast iron frying pan and try for a completely different kind of pizza: http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/08/cast-iron-pizza-tortilla-video-recipe-food-lab.html http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/08/cast-iron-pizza-tortilla-...
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    I've been making my own pizza at home for around a decade now and your 5 points are very good advice. I think 5 is probably the most important. I have recently been on a calzone kick[0] and have been experimenting with different ratios of cheeses. [0] Not sure why I've never tried before. I guess because the pizza's been so good.
    - 9y ago
lhl 9y ago
Here's a couple interviews from a few years back on what it was like to transition from basically an extremely dedicated hobbyist to a pro (Varasano opened his first restaurant in 2009): http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/jeff-varasano-interview-on-opening-a-pizzeria-atlanta-georgia.html http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/jeff-varasano-... http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/the-slice-interview-the-return-of-jeff-varasano-part-ii.html http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/the-slice-inte...
- princeb 9y ago
  this guy reminds me of Ken Forkish whose book "Flour Water Salt Yeast" is a James Beard award winner (like J Kenji's "The Food Lab") and is considered one of the bibles of bread making. he also owns a bakery in Portland that is supposed to be very good (never tried, can't say). also reminds me of the microsoft solitaire guy who eventually left software and started an apple farm and a cider brewery. i am personally quite into bread baking, which is apparently quite a curiousity among my friends. "oh, computer guys don't bake do they?" but i think i'm personally attracted to music or cooking or baking or programming in the same way because they all involve creating something new. The process of getting from nothing to something is miraculous. creating both bread and software gives me the same sense of satisfaction. maybe bread moreso because of how tactile the process is.
  - ratmice 9y ago
    Ken has a bakery and a pizza place in Portland, Ken's artisan bakery, and Ken's artisan pizza, both amazing.
  - MegaDeKay 9y ago
    Do what I do and put all your formulas and methods into a spreadsheet. This a) gets back some of your geek cred, b) makes it trivial to scale the recipe up and down, and c) makes it easier to share recipes with friends if you use something like Google Sheets. I also make many different breads, and found that with a spreadsheet I was much better at putting notes for next time ("try with 15g less water next time"), updating my method ("a cookie sheet on the bottom rack of the oven helped prevent scorching"), or adding links to a bread I want to try in the future.
camperman 9y ago
I've been using this recipe for a good seven or eight years now and it has never let me down. But you really do need an oven that is capable of 800F. I eventually knuckled down and bought a small dedicated pizza oven with a thermometer.
- Dowwie 9y ago
  How often do you make pizza?
  - camperman 9y ago
    Several times a month.
    - Dowwie 9y ago
      I need a friend like you. LOL.
mymacbook 9y ago
Los Gatos: Oak and Rye is my favorite pizza from a brick oven and I want to re-create it. :) I have to say in all the years of hacker news, this article was very welcome and makes this place feel all the more special and cozy!
sledge 9y ago
Varasano's is the best pizza in ATL. This is the reason why.
hashkb 9y ago
Verasanos isn't what I'd call "New York style"... it's more like actual pizza, like, from Italy. Tasty but I am extremely disappointed with having clicked... any tips for imitating the hole in the wall NYC pizzeria?
- panglott 9y ago
  You can say there's two "New York style"s. There's the average storefront selling slices, and then there's the coal-fired brick oven pizza places, which is what this is about.
jdlyga 9y ago
I had a slice of pizza from the 99 cent pizza place across the street from my apartment in Queens. It's still really good. After living in rural Pennsylvania, I don't get why other areas of the country have such a hard time making decent pizza.
- kingkawn 9y ago
  Culture.
- jbigelow76 9y ago
  I don't get why other areas of the country have such a hard time making decent pizza. I was on a neighborhood tour of the Lower West Side a few weeks back and this came up when we sampled slices from what I think was the 2nd oldest pizzeria in NY. The guides attributed it to two things. One, the water used, the NY water supply comes from springs in the Catskills Mountains which have some sort of environmental protections. The other is the quality of the ingredients, the guide pointed out that the simple slice of cheese pizza didn't have any oil pooling on top of the cheese, cheap cheese will result in the oil separating during the cooking processed (that seems legit based on the pizza I get in TX).
  - aeromusek 9y ago
    Freakonimics (great podcast!) did a test a few years back that pretty convincingly dispelled the whole 'it's the water' argument: http://podcastnotes.org/2015/11/09/freakonomics-food-science-victory/ http://podcastnotes.org/2015/11/09/freakonomics-food-science...
    - AndrewNCarr 9y ago
      Varasano also rejects the "special water" claim. I think the historically poor quality of pizza in rural areas is due to the "trade secret" recipe factors (which Varasano identifies) not being widely shared. I've been to small towns with a "House of Pizza" that made an awful flavorless and bready crust, and the locals loved it because they had no reference for anything better.
diego_moita 9y ago
Warning: this is about American pizza. This is an American cooking site. This guy is not Italian. In Rome and Naples, they think of pizza in a very different way. The dough is more pliable, soft and slightly thicker. They also do care a lot more about quality, origin and freshness of toppings than the obsessive and meticulous dough preparation and baking. Charred bottoms in pizza is not a common thing in Italy. In São Paulo, Brazil (another Italian emigrants outpost) the dough is like in Italy but the emphasis is in diversity and amount of toppings. I wonder what pizza is like in other parts of the world.
- mmmpop 9y ago
  The title clearly says "New York Pizza" so I'm not sure what you're on about. That's a lie, I do know, but I won't humor you.
chrisbrandow 9y ago
I've followed this recipe to make dough a couple of times and it is solid with regards to developing the gluten.
wklauss 9y ago
I'll be moving from NYC to Atlanta soon and the quality of pizza has been one of my worries (stupid, I know, but it's the little things). Super happy to find out good NYC-style pizza can be produced there. I always assumed the high humidity will mess things up. Now if someone can figure out how to make decent bagels down there...
- wdewind 9y ago
  This pizza looks pretty good, but it is by no means NYC-style pizza.
- mywittyname 9y ago
  Great bagels are tough. They don't last too long, so a place needs to have enough foot traffic to justify making a fresh batch every few hours.
Nav_Panel 9y ago
> The crust is slightly charred. It has a crisp outer layer, but inside it's airy and light. The ingredients are not piled high, but instead are perfectly balanced. It's sweet, salty, full flavored but not greasy. The tomatoes burst with flavor. Each bite makes you hungrier for the next... Right away, I immediately thought about my one favorite pizza place in NYC, and guess what: > This pizza is modeled after Patsy's on 117th street in NYC Yep. I used to go there (all the way out to 1st Ave! oy vey!) and get takeout slices fresh out of the oven back when I lived uptown. That description gets it just right. Never knew it was considered the best in the US, but it makes sense: that neighborhood was the original "Little Italy" back when the neighborhood was Italian (and Jewish) Harlem rather than Spanish Harlem. I certainly haven't had better in NYC, and I've tried (even the Patsy's on 60th St doesn't get it just right). Another interesting thing, though it doesn't relate to pizza, it's about a sort-of "restaurant model hacker": around the corner from Patsy's is a very secretive restaurant named Rao's. It does away with the "first come first serve" model of seating at restaurants, and instead you get yourself a sort of "standing reservation" for a table once a week/month/year. It's incredibly challenging to get one of these reservations, although there are stories of well-dressed and charming patrons spending some time at the bar and getting a spot for that evening, if there's space left. Many very famous people (and some important but not-famous people...) hold reservations there; it's known as the most exclusive spot in the city. It's also rumored to be mob-related: eating there back in the 70s, you could leave your furs in your convertible with the top down despite the danger of the neighborhood.
panglott 9y ago
I'm not going to modify my stove to cook at 800 deg F., so for my money the best way to get half-decent pizza at home is to make a soft, elastic dough and then cook on a surface that has some thermal mass. I've had good luck with a cast-iron pizza pan. https://www.cooksillustrated.com/equipment_reviews/1340-cast-iron-pizza-pan https://www.cooksillustrated.com/equipment_reviews/1340-cast... There are some things that it's better to have specialists do with specialist equipment, and I'm fine with paying them to do that.
- spaceflunky 9y ago
  You can buy a plate of steel that can be used as a "baking stone" which will hold in and transfer heat to the pizza exceptionally well. If you go down to your local metal supply store you can have them cut one of these plates for you that is thicker (thicker is better) and cheaper than you can buy at any cooking store.
  - dminor 9y ago
    I went this route. There's still a bit of work to do to remove the mill scale and then season it, but it's nice to get something custom that fits your oven.
- fauria 9y ago
  If you have a grill you can try with KettlePizza, it's an add-on that fits into gas and charcoal BBQs: https://www.kettlepizza.com/kettle-ovens/charcoal-grill-inserts/ https://www.kettlepizza.com/kettle-ovens/charcoal-grill-inse...
pao 9y ago
I decided about two years ago try to make a lot of pizza and see how good I could get. I live in a small apartment with a gas oven. When I started, I would make them on a regular baking pan with the oven set to 400°. They were terrible, but it was fun. At some point, my wife jammed a rectangular grilling stone (from Amazon) into our broiler. That made more of a difference than anything. If your broiler is in the main compartment of your oven, then it's a lot easier: get a stone and put it on the highest rack. The next big leap forward was reading Jeff Varasano and learning the basics of hydration. Turns out I was in the 45-50% range. I just needed to get that into the 62% or 65% range or whatever he says. It's counterintuitive because it's so hard to knead at that hydration, but it cooks beautifully. I've started doing a long, cold rise like he recommends. I don't know how much difference it makes. I can't really taste a difference. But I do appreciate the goal of avoiding big bubbles. I'd love to play with different yeasts next, but I keep killing my starters. Jeff has some good thoughts on starters. I like his recommendation to buy a known starter rather than relying on whatever is in your environment. I like the focus on predictability and reproducibility. But I think most people do wild yeast with good results. I think the Tartine book is also a good resource for the starter (and for a lot of things).
- DigitalJack 9y ago
  Our stones specifically say not to use them with the broiler. Which one do you use?
  - dminor 9y ago
    Consider trying a steel instead - it will take the broiler just fine.
  - ccgus 9y ago
    A cordite stone will work well against the broiler. But as with any stone, you're going to want to hit it up slowly to reduce breakage. I'd recommend at least 40m heat up to whatever your oven's top temp is (probably 550), then switching to broiler after that point.
- otherdave 9y ago
wunderlust 9y ago
I love that there's a copy of Creating Web Pages for Dummies in the background of the first photo in the hand kneading section.
contingencies 9y ago
FYI for Americans: when you describe pizza as pie and non-American English speakers are listening, their inner child recoils in horror. pizza = flat thing with cheese on top, pizza base at bottom pie = closed thing with significant vertical component, pastry on top and bottom Otherwise, every flatbread or similar thing on earth is a pie. Observe: "Oh, I really dig these Indian roti-pies". "Pass me another naan-pie". "Papadam pie party!". "The omlette is my favourite pie!". "Cheese toasties are a way better pies than pizza!". "A breakfast of pancake: how I love a pie in the morning!" It's insane.
- bshimmin 9y ago
  Don't all non-Americans (like me), whenever they see pie in this context, quietly sing to themselves, "When a moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie..."?
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    I thought it was 'big piece of pie'.
    - bshimmin 9y ago
      Excuse me while I kiss this guy.
      - jungletek 9y ago
        As the girl with colitis walks by.
- mastax 9y ago
  pizza pie is an NYC-ism, as far as I'm aware. It sounds strange to me, at least.
- mrkgnao 9y ago
  My first exposure to this was Kramer on Seinfeld talking about how people want to make their own "pizza pies".
krosaen 9y ago
This recipe (from my favorite NYC pizza place) nails the flour/water ratio IMO: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-d... with King Arthur's bread flour and over night rising works really well for me. https://www.instagram.com/p/BSFAHprAJuF/?taken-by=krosaen https://www.instagram.com/p/BSFAHprAJuF/?taken-by=krosaen my oven gets up to 550 and I use a pizza stone.
mb22 9y ago
There is some good stuff in this recipe. It's a great starting point for learning. I built a wood burning pizza oven and have been doing experiments for 5+ years, and what I've discovered is only certain things make a taste-able difference. 1. Oven. 900 degrees baby. Pizza cooks fast, and tastes delicious. You can get the "leoparding" on the edges. 100% worth it if you have time and space. 2. Yeast. Get the Ischia: https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Ischia-Camaldoli-Sourdough-Cultures/dp/B006TMLF98 https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Ischia-Camaldoli-Sourdough-Cu... it's a very light sourdough that imparts a delicious almost floral taste. I put a little bit of IDY in the mix to help sometimes, but this yeast is delicious. 3. Autolyse. Let everything but the salt sit for 30-45 minutes to generate gluten. Here's my dough spreadsheet that auto calculates ratios and hydration %: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b46NnndcrK9ImRXx5BW8e3vvH74vB7NYxMlbU2B53fM/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b46NnndcrK9ImRXx5BW8... I'm happy to answer more questions if people are interested.
- ccgus 9y ago
  I 100% endorse these recommendations (I say this as someone who makes 3-6 pizzas a weekend, with an oven that does 900+ degrees as well). I'll also put in a little plug for my dough calculator here: http://maybepizza.com/calc/ http://maybepizza.com/calc/ , which is a bit more accessible on hand held devices. I like that you're keeping a historical record on your spreadsheet- that's a neat idea.
  - mb22 9y ago
    OOoooO I like your style mister! Let people post their results, correlated with their location and time to pull humidity from the local weather and give them a place to store results and we can crowd source our way to some serious pizza! :P
- Tarrosion 9y ago
  I see a lot of recipes recommending autolyse in both bread and pizza. I'm not sure I understand what the benefit is in a recipe which is already high hydration and has a long rest. E.g. my typical sourdough recipe is something like: feed starter generously, let sit overnight. Build dough with bubbly starter, bread flour, additional water, some rye or whole wheat. Bulk ferment for most of the day, with about 4 folds in the first 4 hours. Shape, proof overnight in the fridge. Bake from the fridge. It's my understanding that salt slows the "automatic" formation of gluten in a high hydration dough at rest. Okay, sure. But if the dough is already resting 24 hours between mixing and baking, does that much matter?
olleromam91 9y ago
To me...These do not look like traditional New York Style Pizza. The solid chunks of Mozzarella are pretty direct Naples style. If you want a SERIOUSLY thin crust NY style pizza from a hole in the wall shop in the Bay Area, I highly recommend Arinell in the Mission. Nice big 3 dollar cheese slices, served on a piece of parchment paper. No bells and whistles...just delicious
- tdumitrescu 9y ago
  Don't forget the original Arinell in Berkeley, which I find slightly better than the Mission one. But both top notch for slices.
RangerScience 9y ago
My family cooks hand-tossed pizzas every year for xmas eve (we're not religious at all). Oven with pizza stones. Dad's been playing with the dough recipe fore awhile, tweaking it this way and that... ...but really, we're going nuts with the toppings. It all started when we got a white pizza with grape halves (and other stuff) from the Cheeseboard Pizza Collective. If I remember it correctly, this year's best pizza was a white pizza with figs, bruschetta (sp?), goat cheese and truffle oil. Barely any topics, but the most amazing thing to put in your mouth. Another story: Back in college (upstate NY), the local late night food was (of course) many, many local pizza places, all of which were basically the same and thoroughly standard. I once asked them what kind of dough they used, and they said "Pizza dough..?". I took their confusion about the question as an explanation as to why I never really liked their pizza: if they don't care enough about pizza to learn about dough, it's reasonable to expect they don't care enough to make a great pie. PS - Shoutout to Zachary's deep dish in the Bay, and Masa's in LA.
mianos 9y ago
What is really cool is this same guy was also the US Rubik's Cube champion in the 80s.
vinceguidry 9y ago
After reading this, I realized he lives in Atlanta GA and has a restaurant here. So of course I had to go. The pizza was, of course, phenomenal, but Jeff himself was there, and I let him know that his article reached the top page here. He told me he was working on an AI framework in C++! I gave him the URL for Hacker News, hopefully he'll find some time to participate. Hilarious, I told him my pizza was excellent, and he was eating a Big Mac. He told me his was great too, but I couldn't have any. No trade!

350 points by benbreen 9y ago

tomglynch 9y ago

This is ridiculously in depth

dsr_ 9y ago
Which is why it's suitable for Hacker News. Varasano's a pizza hacker.

tribby 9y ago

surprised to see this here, but it doesn't have style sheets, so maybe not too surprised ;) jeff varasano's website is a great resource for pizza hackers and lays a lot of myths to rest (like proofing). my own process (which I cook in a blackstone pizza oven at ~800°) has a bit more in common with tony gemignani's basic neopolitan (described in his pizza bible), with the addition of the earlier and longer autolysing period used by jeff. the difference is night and day and I wish I'd learned about it a lot sooner! if you're in the bay area and this kind of pizza is your thing, be sure to check out the following places -- SF: pizzetta 211, una pizza napoletana, tony's, firetrail, a16 oakland: boot & shoe, pizzaiolo, also a16 berkeley: lucia's, emilia's on that list, emilia's is far and away my favorite. it's a one man operation, dirt cheap ($21 tax included for an 18" pie), and just impossibly good. he gave me some of his sourdough starter once, and killing it rather quickly is one of my greatest regrets.

jclem 9y ago
Pizzaiolo is good, reminded me of Paulie Gee's and Speedy Romeo, both of which are places in Brooklyn I really like. I always find Una Pizza Napoletana extremely soft and doughy, and personally I think it's really overrated. Maybe I've just gotten bad pies on the two occasions I've tried it.
- subpixel 9y ago
  I agree - not about Una Pizza in particular but about the Neopolitan style in general. When pizza crust resembles naan (overly soft, pliable after baking) things have gone too far.
  - shaklee3 9y ago
    This is from the Italian 00 flour. I think it's a nice alternative.
    - blehn 9y ago
      It's not from the flour — most of those other places use 00 flour as well. It's from the dough not being stretched as thin.
      - shaklee3 9y ago
        It's from the flour.
- diego_moita 9y ago
  > Una Pizza Napoletana extremely soft and doughy This is just hilarious. Compared to NY pizza, "soft and doughy" is what most pizzas in Naples and Rome are. That's precisely the original concept.
  - jclem 9y ago
    I'm not comparing it to "NY pizza", if you're referring to common pizzeria pizza. Compared to other Neapolitan pizzas, I have found Una Pizza Napoletana to be really doughy, even on the outside.
colordrops 9y ago
Any recommendations for L.A.?
- goldenkey 9y ago
  California Pizza Kitchen
- getpost 9y ago
  http://www.lodgebread.com/ http://www.lodgebread.com/ http://www.sottorestaurant.com/ http://www.sottorestaurant.com/ http://pizzeriamozza.com/ http://pizzeriamozza.com/ http://www.miloandolive.com/ http://www.miloandolive.com/ http://felixla.com/ http://felixla.com/ http://fahrenheitla.com/ http://fahrenheitla.com/ new/haven't tried/coming soon: http://www.slowrisepizza.com/ http://www.slowrisepizza.com/ http://pizzana.com/ http://pizzana.com/
- archagon 9y ago
  I've only been once, but Mozza is fantastic (if a bit unorthodox). They have a bar special where you can get a pizza, glass of wine, and dessert for $30. It used to be an insane $20, but it's still a bargain when you consider that some of their pizzas cost $20+ and their desserts are in the $10 range.
- tdumitrescu 9y ago
  On a recent trip I discovered DeSano, which was awesome. Some of the most realistic Neapolitan I've found in the states.
batbomb 9y ago
If Pizzetta is packed, you can walk down the street to Fiorella too. Il Casaro is good too. Pizzetta has the most flavorful and distinct/seasonal toppings, but the crust is better at some other places.
archagon 9y ago
+1 for Emilia's (just don't forgot to call ahead), adding Casey's (one of the best pizzas I've had on any coast) and Pizza Hacker (though it has a bit of California flair). I'm so happy the East Coast no longer has a monopoly on amazing pizza! I'm not the biggest fan of Tony's margherita, but it seems the dude can make a perfect pizza in practically any style. Capo's is the best deep dish pizza I've ever had, including Chicago!
- mikeryan 9y ago
  Is there a way to hack that line for Emilia's? I start dialing at 4pm and get a 7:30pm pie.... Awesome place though - totally worth it. Between Emilia's the Cheeseboard and Zachary's Berkeley has a pretty awesome choice of Pizza. Boot and Shoe is also opening a location on Shattuck ....
  - archagon 9y ago
    Also Artichoke Basille! Not fancy at all, but it's a real NY chain and they have authentic-tasting slices and Sicilian squares. (Plus monstrosities like their artichoke pizza, but I admit it's an occasional guilty pleasure...)
    - simtel20 9y ago
      Unlike the OP dough, the pizzas at artichokes in NYC has always been mediocre. Going west on 14th st to the Joe's will get a better crisp slice in a hotter oven. I can't imagine that they are better in SF if that's what we're talking about, but I guess it's possible.
      - archagon 9y ago
        Yes — but we don't get a lot of genuine NY slices over here on the West Coast!
  - tribby 9y ago
    there are in fact a few emilia's hacks and secrets -- but I can't share them here! the most important one is getting to know keith :) berkeley does indeed have good pizza. outside the neopolitan pizzerias, gioia is excellent, arinell is one of my favorites for a NY slice (same as the one on 16th & valencia), and artichoke basille's isn't great but for a gigantic margherita slice at 3am, I'll take it! make sure to check out benchmark in kensingson (basically berkeley) too.
crsmith 9y ago
SF: Del Popolo
damnfinecoffee 9y ago
Have you found any good places in the south bay? I have so far been unsuccessful and would love an option that doesn't require a trip into the city
ccmonnett 9y ago
Awesome! I saved every one since I've never been to any... can you do the South Bay/Peninsula (anyone else too)? About the OP: I effing _love_ pizza but struggle to make it at home. The quality and quantity of knowledge in this post is fantastic!
- archagon 9y ago
  Pizza Bocca Lupo in San Jose is good and pretty inexpensive!
- someheavyocean 9y ago
  Bibo's NY Pizza on Bird in San Jose is amazing.

MikeTaylor 9y ago

Folks who know pizza: What can those us with regular ovens do? You know, the sort of oven you find in most kitchens that top out at 250C (500F)?

markild 9y ago
I will not claim to honestly "know" pizza, but in my experience, turning your oven up to max with a baking steel (or stone), can give great results, without the need of anything that breaks the bank.
dsr_ 9y ago
1. Make great dough. The ingredients are cheap, it doesn't take much manual time -- but you want to let it ferment in your refrigerator at least overnight. 2. Make your own sauce. The ingredients are cheap, and a little experimentation will get it to the taste that you want. 3. Don't overtop it. The natural tendency is to want more - more sauce, more cheese, more whatever else. Start off very simply. Scatter little bits. 4. Transfer as much heat as possible to the bottom of your crust. You can use a baking steel, a pizza stone, or unglazed fire tiles available for less than $10 at your local hardware store. Put them in the oven exactly where you want your pizza to go, then fire it all the way up. 5. Experiment. The first few pizzas you make will vary wildly from "almost what I want" to "maybe I shouldn't make pizza". Keep going. Take notes. And if you don't have an oven at all, consider getting a cast iron frying pan and try for a completely different kind of pizza: http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/08/cast-iron-pizza-tortilla-video-recipe-food-lab.html http://www.seriouseats.com/2016/08/cast-iron-pizza-tortilla-...
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  I've been making my own pizza at home for around a decade now and your 5 points are very good advice. I think 5 is probably the most important. I have recently been on a calzone kick[0] and have been experimenting with different ratios of cheeses. [0] Not sure why I've never tried before. I guess because the pizza's been so good.
  - 9y ago

lhl 9y ago

Here's a couple interviews from a few years back on what it was like to transition from basically an extremely dedicated hobbyist to a pro (Varasano opened his first restaurant in 2009): http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/jeff-varasano-interview-on-opening-a-pizzeria-atlanta-georgia.html http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/jeff-varasano-... http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/the-slice-interview-the-return-of-jeff-varasano-part-ii.html http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2014/04/the-slice-inte...

princeb 9y ago
this guy reminds me of Ken Forkish whose book "Flour Water Salt Yeast" is a James Beard award winner (like J Kenji's "The Food Lab") and is considered one of the bibles of bread making. he also owns a bakery in Portland that is supposed to be very good (never tried, can't say). also reminds me of the microsoft solitaire guy who eventually left software and started an apple farm and a cider brewery. i am personally quite into bread baking, which is apparently quite a curiousity among my friends. "oh, computer guys don't bake do they?" but i think i'm personally attracted to music or cooking or baking or programming in the same way because they all involve creating something new. The process of getting from nothing to something is miraculous. creating both bread and software gives me the same sense of satisfaction. maybe bread moreso because of how tactile the process is.
- ratmice 9y ago
  Ken has a bakery and a pizza place in Portland, Ken's artisan bakery, and Ken's artisan pizza, both amazing.
- MegaDeKay 9y ago
  Do what I do and put all your formulas and methods into a spreadsheet. This a) gets back some of your geek cred, b) makes it trivial to scale the recipe up and down, and c) makes it easier to share recipes with friends if you use something like Google Sheets. I also make many different breads, and found that with a spreadsheet I was much better at putting notes for next time ("try with 15g less water next time"), updating my method ("a cookie sheet on the bottom rack of the oven helped prevent scorching"), or adding links to a bread I want to try in the future.

camperman 9y ago

I've been using this recipe for a good seven or eight years now and it has never let me down. But you really do need an oven that is capable of 800F. I eventually knuckled down and bought a small dedicated pizza oven with a thermometer.

Dowwie 9y ago
How often do you make pizza?
- camperman 9y ago
  Several times a month.
  - Dowwie 9y ago
    I need a friend like you. LOL.

mymacbook 9y ago

Los Gatos: Oak and Rye is my favorite pizza from a brick oven and I want to re-create it. :) I have to say in all the years of hacker news, this article was very welcome and makes this place feel all the more special and cozy!

sledge 9y ago

Varasano's is the best pizza in ATL. This is the reason why.

hashkb 9y ago

Verasanos isn't what I'd call "New York style"... it's more like actual pizza, like, from Italy. Tasty but I am extremely disappointed with having clicked... any tips for imitating the hole in the wall NYC pizzeria?

panglott 9y ago
You can say there's two "New York style"s. There's the average storefront selling slices, and then there's the coal-fired brick oven pizza places, which is what this is about.

jdlyga 9y ago

I had a slice of pizza from the 99 cent pizza place across the street from my apartment in Queens. It's still really good. After living in rural Pennsylvania, I don't get why other areas of the country have such a hard time making decent pizza.

kingkawn 9y ago
Culture.
jbigelow76 9y ago
I don't get why other areas of the country have such a hard time making decent pizza. I was on a neighborhood tour of the Lower West Side a few weeks back and this came up when we sampled slices from what I think was the 2nd oldest pizzeria in NY. The guides attributed it to two things. One, the water used, the NY water supply comes from springs in the Catskills Mountains which have some sort of environmental protections. The other is the quality of the ingredients, the guide pointed out that the simple slice of cheese pizza didn't have any oil pooling on top of the cheese, cheap cheese will result in the oil separating during the cooking processed (that seems legit based on the pizza I get in TX).
- aeromusek 9y ago
  Freakonimics (great podcast!) did a test a few years back that pretty convincingly dispelled the whole 'it's the water' argument: http://podcastnotes.org/2015/11/09/freakonomics-food-science-victory/ http://podcastnotes.org/2015/11/09/freakonomics-food-science...
  - AndrewNCarr 9y ago
    Varasano also rejects the "special water" claim. I think the historically poor quality of pizza in rural areas is due to the "trade secret" recipe factors (which Varasano identifies) not being widely shared. I've been to small towns with a "House of Pizza" that made an awful flavorless and bready crust, and the locals loved it because they had no reference for anything better.

diego_moita 9y ago

Warning: this is about American pizza. This is an American cooking site. This guy is not Italian. In Rome and Naples, they think of pizza in a very different way. The dough is more pliable, soft and slightly thicker. They also do care a lot more about quality, origin and freshness of toppings than the obsessive and meticulous dough preparation and baking. Charred bottoms in pizza is not a common thing in Italy. In São Paulo, Brazil (another Italian emigrants outpost) the dough is like in Italy but the emphasis is in diversity and amount of toppings. I wonder what pizza is like in other parts of the world.

mmmpop 9y ago
The title clearly says "New York Pizza" so I'm not sure what you're on about. That's a lie, I do know, but I won't humor you.

chrisbrandow 9y ago

I've followed this recipe to make dough a couple of times and it is solid with regards to developing the gluten.

wklauss 9y ago

I'll be moving from NYC to Atlanta soon and the quality of pizza has been one of my worries (stupid, I know, but it's the little things). Super happy to find out good NYC-style pizza can be produced there. I always assumed the high humidity will mess things up. Now if someone can figure out how to make decent bagels down there...

wdewind 9y ago
This pizza looks pretty good, but it is by no means NYC-style pizza.
mywittyname 9y ago
Great bagels are tough. They don't last too long, so a place needs to have enough foot traffic to justify making a fresh batch every few hours.

Nav_Panel 9y ago

> The crust is slightly charred. It has a crisp outer layer, but inside it's airy and light. The ingredients are not piled high, but instead are perfectly balanced. It's sweet, salty, full flavored but not greasy. The tomatoes burst with flavor. Each bite makes you hungrier for the next... Right away, I immediately thought about my one favorite pizza place in NYC, and guess what: > This pizza is modeled after Patsy's on 117th street in NYC Yep. I used to go there (all the way out to 1st Ave! oy vey!) and get takeout slices fresh out of the oven back when I lived uptown. That description gets it just right. Never knew it was considered the best in the US, but it makes sense: that neighborhood was the original "Little Italy" back when the neighborhood was Italian (and Jewish) Harlem rather than Spanish Harlem. I certainly haven't had better in NYC, and I've tried (even the Patsy's on 60th St doesn't get it just right). Another interesting thing, though it doesn't relate to pizza, it's about a sort-of "restaurant model hacker": around the corner from Patsy's is a very secretive restaurant named Rao's. It does away with the "first come first serve" model of seating at restaurants, and instead you get yourself a sort of "standing reservation" for a table once a week/month/year. It's incredibly challenging to get one of these reservations, although there are stories of well-dressed and charming patrons spending some time at the bar and getting a spot for that evening, if there's space left. Many very famous people (and some important but not-famous people...) hold reservations there; it's known as the most exclusive spot in the city. It's also rumored to be mob-related: eating there back in the 70s, you could leave your furs in your convertible with the top down despite the danger of the neighborhood.

panglott 9y ago

I'm not going to modify my stove to cook at 800 deg F., so for my money the best way to get half-decent pizza at home is to make a soft, elastic dough and then cook on a surface that has some thermal mass. I've had good luck with a cast-iron pizza pan. https://www.cooksillustrated.com/equipment_reviews/1340-cast-iron-pizza-pan https://www.cooksillustrated.com/equipment_reviews/1340-cast... There are some things that it's better to have specialists do with specialist equipment, and I'm fine with paying them to do that.

spaceflunky 9y ago
You can buy a plate of steel that can be used as a "baking stone" which will hold in and transfer heat to the pizza exceptionally well. If you go down to your local metal supply store you can have them cut one of these plates for you that is thicker (thicker is better) and cheaper than you can buy at any cooking store.
- dminor 9y ago
  I went this route. There's still a bit of work to do to remove the mill scale and then season it, but it's nice to get something custom that fits your oven.
fauria 9y ago
If you have a grill you can try with KettlePizza, it's an add-on that fits into gas and charcoal BBQs: https://www.kettlepizza.com/kettle-ovens/charcoal-grill-inserts/ https://www.kettlepizza.com/kettle-ovens/charcoal-grill-inse...

pao 9y ago

I decided about two years ago try to make a lot of pizza and see how good I could get. I live in a small apartment with a gas oven. When I started, I would make them on a regular baking pan with the oven set to 400°. They were terrible, but it was fun. At some point, my wife jammed a rectangular grilling stone (from Amazon) into our broiler. That made more of a difference than anything. If your broiler is in the main compartment of your oven, then it's a lot easier: get a stone and put it on the highest rack. The next big leap forward was reading Jeff Varasano and learning the basics of hydration. Turns out I was in the 45-50% range. I just needed to get that into the 62% or 65% range or whatever he says. It's counterintuitive because it's so hard to knead at that hydration, but it cooks beautifully. I've started doing a long, cold rise like he recommends. I don't know how much difference it makes. I can't really taste a difference. But I do appreciate the goal of avoiding big bubbles. I'd love to play with different yeasts next, but I keep killing my starters. Jeff has some good thoughts on starters. I like his recommendation to buy a known starter rather than relying on whatever is in your environment. I like the focus on predictability and reproducibility. But I think most people do wild yeast with good results. I think the Tartine book is also a good resource for the starter (and for a lot of things).

DigitalJack 9y ago
Our stones specifically say not to use them with the broiler. Which one do you use?
- dminor 9y ago
  Consider trying a steel instead - it will take the broiler just fine.
- ccgus 9y ago
  A cordite stone will work well against the broiler. But as with any stone, you're going to want to hit it up slowly to reduce breakage. I'd recommend at least 40m heat up to whatever your oven's top temp is (probably 550), then switching to broiler after that point.
otherdave 9y ago

wunderlust 9y ago

I love that there's a copy of Creating Web Pages for Dummies in the background of the first photo in the hand kneading section.

contingencies 9y ago

FYI for Americans: when you describe pizza as pie and non-American English speakers are listening, their inner child recoils in horror. pizza = flat thing with cheese on top, pizza base at bottom pie = closed thing with significant vertical component, pastry on top and bottom Otherwise, every flatbread or similar thing on earth is a pie. Observe: "Oh, I really dig these Indian roti-pies". "Pass me another naan-pie". "Papadam pie party!". "The omlette is my favourite pie!". "Cheese toasties are a way better pies than pizza!". "A breakfast of pancake: how I love a pie in the morning!" It's insane.

bshimmin 9y ago
Don't all non-Americans (like me), whenever they see pie in this context, quietly sing to themselves, "When a moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie..."?
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  I thought it was 'big piece of pie'.
  - bshimmin 9y ago
    Excuse me while I kiss this guy.
    - jungletek 9y ago
      As the girl with colitis walks by.
mastax 9y ago
pizza pie is an NYC-ism, as far as I'm aware. It sounds strange to me, at least.
mrkgnao 9y ago
My first exposure to this was Kramer on Seinfeld talking about how people want to make their own "pizza pies".

krosaen 9y ago

This recipe (from my favorite NYC pizza place) nails the flour/water ratio IMO: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-dough https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016230-robertas-pizza-d... with King Arthur's bread flour and over night rising works really well for me. https://www.instagram.com/p/BSFAHprAJuF/?taken-by=krosaen https://www.instagram.com/p/BSFAHprAJuF/?taken-by=krosaen my oven gets up to 550 and I use a pizza stone.

mb22 9y ago

There is some good stuff in this recipe. It's a great starting point for learning. I built a wood burning pizza oven and have been doing experiments for 5+ years, and what I've discovered is only certain things make a taste-able difference. 1. Oven. 900 degrees baby. Pizza cooks fast, and tastes delicious. You can get the "leoparding" on the edges. 100% worth it if you have time and space. 2. Yeast. Get the Ischia: https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Ischia-Camaldoli-Sourdough-Cultures/dp/B006TMLF98 https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Ischia-Camaldoli-Sourdough-Cu... it's a very light sourdough that imparts a delicious almost floral taste. I put a little bit of IDY in the mix to help sometimes, but this yeast is delicious. 3. Autolyse. Let everything but the salt sit for 30-45 minutes to generate gluten. Here's my dough spreadsheet that auto calculates ratios and hydration %: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b46NnndcrK9ImRXx5BW8e3vvH74vB7NYxMlbU2B53fM/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b46NnndcrK9ImRXx5BW8... I'm happy to answer more questions if people are interested.

ccgus 9y ago
I 100% endorse these recommendations (I say this as someone who makes 3-6 pizzas a weekend, with an oven that does 900+ degrees as well). I'll also put in a little plug for my dough calculator here: http://maybepizza.com/calc/ http://maybepizza.com/calc/ , which is a bit more accessible on hand held devices. I like that you're keeping a historical record on your spreadsheet- that's a neat idea.
- mb22 9y ago
  OOoooO I like your style mister! Let people post their results, correlated with their location and time to pull humidity from the local weather and give them a place to store results and we can crowd source our way to some serious pizza! :P
Tarrosion 9y ago
I see a lot of recipes recommending autolyse in both bread and pizza. I'm not sure I understand what the benefit is in a recipe which is already high hydration and has a long rest. E.g. my typical sourdough recipe is something like: feed starter generously, let sit overnight. Build dough with bubbly starter, bread flour, additional water, some rye or whole wheat. Bulk ferment for most of the day, with about 4 folds in the first 4 hours. Shape, proof overnight in the fridge. Bake from the fridge. It's my understanding that salt slows the "automatic" formation of gluten in a high hydration dough at rest. Okay, sure. But if the dough is already resting 24 hours between mixing and baking, does that much matter?

olleromam91 9y ago

To me...These do not look like traditional New York Style Pizza. The solid chunks of Mozzarella are pretty direct Naples style. If you want a SERIOUSLY thin crust NY style pizza from a hole in the wall shop in the Bay Area, I highly recommend Arinell in the Mission. Nice big 3 dollar cheese slices, served on a piece of parchment paper. No bells and whistles...just delicious

tdumitrescu 9y ago
Don't forget the original Arinell in Berkeley, which I find slightly better than the Mission one. But both top notch for slices.

RangerScience 9y ago

My family cooks hand-tossed pizzas every year for xmas eve (we're not religious at all). Oven with pizza stones. Dad's been playing with the dough recipe fore awhile, tweaking it this way and that... ...but really, we're going nuts with the toppings. It all started when we got a white pizza with grape halves (and other stuff) from the Cheeseboard Pizza Collective. If I remember it correctly, this year's best pizza was a white pizza with figs, bruschetta (sp?), goat cheese and truffle oil. Barely any topics, but the most amazing thing to put in your mouth. Another story: Back in college (upstate NY), the local late night food was (of course) many, many local pizza places, all of which were basically the same and thoroughly standard. I once asked them what kind of dough they used, and they said "Pizza dough..?". I took their confusion about the question as an explanation as to why I never really liked their pizza: if they don't care enough about pizza to learn about dough, it's reasonable to expect they don't care enough to make a great pie. PS - Shoutout to Zachary's deep dish in the Bay, and Masa's in LA.

mianos 9y ago

What is really cool is this same guy was also the US Rubik's Cube champion in the 80s.

vinceguidry 9y ago

After reading this, I realized he lives in Atlanta GA and has a restaurant here. So of course I had to go. The pizza was, of course, phenomenal, but Jeff himself was there, and I let him know that his article reached the top page here. He told me he was working on an AI framework in C++! I gave him the URL for Hacker News, hopefully he'll find some time to participate. Hilarious, I told him my pizza was excellent, and he was eating a Big Mac. He told me his was great too, but I couldn't have any. No trade!