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On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye
- rubatuga 9y agoSeems like a war of culture vs. culture, who will win?
- kevin_thibedeau 9y agoThe one with the money.
- rch 9y agoMore specifically, the reserve currency.
- hyperdunc 9y agoThe culture with the reserve currency has lost its mojo and is confused about its values. It that continues there's no way it's going to win.
- Gustomaximus 9y agoMoney is a variable but to list it alone feels a tad glib. Factors like ideology, corruption, political altruism, perceived and actual opportunity within nation, social justice etc are all extremely significant and can outweigh money when they are obviously unbalanced from expectations.
- abrowne 9y agoThis link is a Readability-style view of https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-campuses-china-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-weste... It looks good, but it's a not good canonical link for sharing.
- Gustomaximus 9y agoAnd China's government have also bought nearly all Chinese language press in Australia: http://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-language-newspapers-in-australia-beijing-controls-messaging-propaganda-in-press-20160610-gpg0s3.html http://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-language-newspapers-i... And actively entering into mainstream media: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-03/birtles-australian-media-playing-into-chinas-grand-strategy/7472870 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-03/birtles-australian-med...
- mistermann 9y agoGood idea for a startup if it's a near guaranteed buyout.
- ganfortran 9y agoTIL that pro China talk is against freedom of speech, how ironic.
- it_learnses 9y agodid you even read the article? You're probably a Chinese shill too.
- douche 9y ago@dang or @sctb accusing people of being shills is not ok, right?
- grzm 9y ago'dang and 'sctb don't see everything. If you want to guarantee something is seen by them, contact them via the Contact link in the footer.
- sctb 9y agoWe've already asked you not to do this. We ban accounts that continue on, so please stop.
- hiddencost 9y ago"freedom of speech" refers to specific legal principles related to what kinds of reprisals the US federal government can take against you for speech (fun fact: there are types of speech which can send you to jail [0]). It has nothing to do with what kinds of actions society can take against you, or private citizens, or private institutions. This is an article about astroturfing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
- gruez 9y ago>"freedom of speech" refers to specific legal principles related to what kinds of reprisals the US federal government can take against you for speech Legally yes, but colloquially it includes non-governmental actions[1]. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freedom_of_speech https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freedom_of_speech
- gogopuppygogo 9y agoChina is buying influence Globally as the United States and Europe cede soft power after years of war in the middle east. While not fantastic for rights of freedom loving people everywhere it is probably a good thing for Africans in general since they seem to be getting a lot of economic love from China in exchange for mineral rights. http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/africa/what-africans-really-think-of-china/ http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/africa/what-africans-really-th...
- api 9y agoWar in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation. With the absurd cost of these wars we could just buy the oil, or pay for megaprojects to replace it with gas (even gas to liquids), nuclear, and renewable power. There seems to be no rational explanation for the immense gravity well of Middle Eastern war and how it drags in Democrats and Republicans alike even if they seem initially opposed to it. I also don't buy the religious or Israel explanation, as neither of these groups have that much influence. The need to constantly involve ourselves in the Middle East seems like an imperative that supercedes all other concerns. I wasn't a fan of Trump and did not vote for him, but I did have a little bit of hope that at the very least he might be against these wars on "America first" grounds. Looks like the answer is no as his administration is slowly taken over by the war party. It's almost like when presidents are elected they learn something nobody else knows.
- HarryHirsch 9y agoWar in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't buy the oil explanation The conspiracy theory is that the war serves to dislodge the population and increase refugee flows to Europe to destabilize the region economically and politically. The war in the Middle East is in truth a war against the European Union, especially Germany. So the story goes.
- api 9y agoI haven't heard that one. I have heard that it is a proxy war against Russia or China, but I'm not sure that makes sense either. Russia in particular has tons of oil and doesn't need any from elsewhere. The only thing that makes a little sense is that it's an end in itself: we must have war to support the war industry and it's associated jobs and social programs. It's not just corporations with an interest in this. For many poor Americans military service is the only way to advance, and military service signs you up for a much higher tier of social programs than the rest of the public. In truth America does have socialism. It's just enlistment to grave, not cradle to grave. If there were a prolonged period without war, people would start questioning these expenditures.
- paulmd 9y agoIsrael's been doing this for a long time. Try inviting pro-Palestinian activists to campus and see what happens. At the end of the day, everyone has the right to protest, whether that's Black Lives Matter or the Westboro Baptist Church or any other group. Always distressing to see it used to further what I see as oppression but there's not really a whole lot to be done about it. You get your opinions and I get mine. If people want to miss their kids' graduation, well, kinda sucks to be them I guess. Not everybody agrees with their graduation speaker, but you choose to make it political instead of being, you know, about your kids' achievements. I had friends who had George W Bush speak at their graduations, in 2008 no less. Suck it up for 15 minutes, nobody is forcing you to march in support of some college graduation speaker.
- Cyph0n 9y agoThere's a very interesting investigative documentary by Al Jazeera that shows how Israel funds and manages the Israeli lobby in the UK. I'll look for the link and edit this comment. Edit: Here is a link to part 1 of the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc. You can follow the "Up next" link to watch the other parts; there are 4 parts in total.
- voodooranger 9y agoNot sure that the mouthpiece of the ruling family of Qatar is a reputable source for anything, much less any topic involving Israel.
- zhte415 9y agoTo complete the circle, however, Al Jazeera's China related journalism is excellent. And generally they seem to push the envelope in what they cover. And for their home turf, would you like to suggest a better source for middle-east related news?
- Cyph0n 9y agoI'm a huge fan of Al Jazeera for some issues in the Middle East, but I think the best all-round news source for the region is Middle East Eye[1]. Their journalists have a no holds barred approach to sensitive topics in the region. [1]: http://www.middleeasteye.net/ http://www.middleeasteye.net/
- it_learnses 9y agoI wish we could somehow curb Chinese immigration and trade here in Canada. Our government seems to be bending over backwards for them.
- prklmn 9y agohttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-04/vancouver-housing-tax-pushes-chinese-to-1-million-seattle-homes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-04/vancouver...
- msie 9y agoI wish we could somehow make people less ignorant and more tolerant here in Canada. People are always blaming immigrants for their problems.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- HarryHirsch 9y agoRising housing prices in Vancouver are a valid concern. I don't understand why the grandparent is downvoted. You don't combat racism by not recognizing valid grievances.
- it_learnses 9y agohow am I being racist? We have rich chinese immigrants from mainland literally buying their permanent residency and driving up the price of housing here. We have the chinese government pushing us around and our weak government isn't standing up for Canadians. I think it's a valid concern.
- rubatuga 9y agoProof for the last point would be great.
- 9y ago
- throwanem 9y agoGlobalism can be a real bastard.
- surveilmebro 9y agoI've noticed similar things at my university [am research faculty; disclaimer: throwaway account since my usual one identifies me]. Something I've seen often is unfamiliar faces specifically at seminars presented by academics of Taiwanese origin. My department has a pretty static set of seminar attendees, so it is quite noticeable when three or four undergrad-aged people I don't know slip into the back of the room.
- msie 9y agoI just don't think all that effort is going to make a difference in anti-China sentiment in the US or anywhere else.
- ajmurmann 9y agoIt might make it worse. I actually have many things I love about China and wouldn't mind moving there for a few years if it wasn't for this oppressive stuff.
- panzer_wyrm 9y agoIf you don't involve yourself deep into politics the most oppressive thing there is that you have to eat with chopsticks. It is hardly totalitarian dystopia. As long as you are there to make money and help the chineese do so you are fine.
- CriticalSection 9y agoThey should ask for lessons from the clubs that Israel's government creates to curb pro-Palestinian speech. They even got Congress to pass laws to curb Palestinian criticisms of Israel on campus ( https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/opinion/will-campus-criticism-of-israel-violate-federal-law.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/opinion/will-campus-criti... ). That's a high bar for China to hop over.
- stefantalpalaru 9y ago> That's a high bar for China to hop over. I'll say. At least a quarter of the US population - the Evangelicals - see it as their religious duty to support Israel no matter what: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism#United_States_of_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism#United_State... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon#Dispensationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon#Dispensationalism
- nickodell 9y agoIt has not been passed by both houses. https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/10/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/10/...
- gragas 9y agoIt's interesting how many people instantly try to twist this into an anti-Israel thread.
- agjacobson 9y agoI noticed this too.
- erikpukinskis 9y agoI'm not sure what you're implying when you say it's "interesting". If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case.
- dragonwriter 9y ago> If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case. As much as Israel has colonized parts of Palestine by way of settlements, its nothing like the Chinese annexation and colonization of Tibet.
- rubatuga 9y agoPerfect, let's downplay Israel by shitting on China! In reality, both of these are clear examples of how the victor gets to write the history books. By getting rid of the conversations, this is unequivocally censorship.
- echaozh 9y agoWhat about the white annexation and colonization of America?
- erikpukinskis 9y agoEqually bullshit. I can admit Israel is better than colonial America. Kind of a low bar though. I don't think I'd have a problem with people advocating for settlements if they acknowledged they were colonizing native people in order to eradicate their culture. At least be honest about it. People act like Israel is some sort of liberal state.
- kenshinoor 9y agoOf cause the students will protest Dalai Lama. China has a database for a list of certified overseas universities. There was a school removed from that list for allowing Dalai to talk about Tibet in his visit. :(
- mwnivek 9y agoLink to source, which I could not find in the posted link: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-campuses-china-influence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-weste...
- metaphor 9y agoIt's literally at the top, plain as day, in a hyperlink labeled SOURCE, immediately to the right of a label denoting that it came from NYT.
- vtange 9y agoReminds me of that one time when some students at UCSD protested against the university hosting the Dalai Lama for a graduation speech. https://qz.com/908922/chinese-students-at-ucsd-are-evoking-diversity-to-justify-their-opposition-to-the-dalai-lamas-graduation-speech/ https://qz.com/908922/chinese-students-at-ucsd-are-evoking-d... I've always felt that in an increasingly globalized and connected world, we will start to see increased external influence in America from parties that are not the Democrats or the Republicans. China is arguably the world's largest and most powerful political party, and with no domestic competition, it pretty much has the freedom and ability to overshadow smaller, more divided political entities.
- LightskinKanye 9y agoI don't know how I feel about posting outline.com articles that are from the NYTimes.com without their consent... Seems pretty unethical since I don't have a subscription and would like to support them somehow.
- narrator 9y agoI am sure they will be welcomed alongside third wave feminism and radical islamic groups to the great coallition of the outraged.
- woodandsteel 9y agoI think the Chinese government is making a huge mistake in the way it is oppressing freedom of speech at home and broad. China is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable. At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out.
- unityByFreedom 9y ago> At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term. That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out. I'd take the other side for a moment and suggest he may be doing what he thinks is best for unity in China. Democracy isn't something you can just slap on top of anything. It starts from the ground up because it is built by the people. Any form of government is always going to be concerned about some form of popular uprising. Negative sentiment isn't good for Trump, and it wouldn't be good for Xi either. I agree with you that China needs to think things from basic principles. I'm just not sure whether my ideas about applying these within China are more or less correct than Xi's. Ultimately I think that's really up to the Chinese people. On the one hand, democracy in China seems inevitable as their population grows more wealthy and has free time to demand a better life. On the other, it seems the nationalist side will always be able to say that any attempts to achieve democracy are the result of foreign agents. Perhaps China will achieve democracy when the West's fails. That would be a sight.
- Animats 9y agoChina is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable. The current system is working far better than the last few systems. Until 1985, China had regular famines. Now it has the largest GDP in the world.
- agjacobson 9y agoIn 2016, China landed a robotic rover on the moon. The NY Times had fairly extensive coverage. For a solid month, the main article was in the top ten of forwarded articles, assuring that all nytimes.com readers would repeatedly see it in a prominent sidebar. This is unusual behavior. NY Times readers are interested, but easily jaded by space travel. And nothing lasts forever a month. Finally, I complained to the nytimes.com ombudsman. Gone in a day! Someone there must have agreed with me. Click farm behavior.
- metaphor 9y ago>> This is unusual behavior. >> Click farm behavior. 2010 U.S. Census reported[1] 695,000 who self-identify as Chinese in the NY metro area alone...never mind LA, Bay area, Boston, and Seattle...only a few of the largest, wealthiest, highly educated cities in the nation. Are you sure? [1] https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf
- ouid 9y agoI think if the nytimes were to actually have responded to agjacobsons claim, it would have been with an internal investigation, and then any action would have been taken only after the results of that investigation.
- maverick_iceman 9y agoI see this as an outgrowth of left-liberal student bodies clamping down on conservative speech on college campuses. If leftist students can block Ann Coulter from speaking then why can't Chinese students block the Dalai Lama? Every speech is guaranteed to offend someone and that's verboten in today's campuses. As a libertarian, I was always worried about this and it was a main reason why I opposed social justice warriors. Sadly, our fear has come to pass and censorship now reigns in universities. In the future, children's fairytales will be the only safe topic to discuss.
- ggggtez 9y agoYour entry sounds like a fairy tale... And I don't think it's worth discussion.
- sctb 9y agoPlease comment civilly and substantively on Hacker News or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- swang 9y agogive me a break. left, right, _anytime_ there is a controversial figure on either side there will be opposition from the polar opposite side. but sure, don't mention the times people on the "left" wanted to speak and were threaten and harmed by the "other side"
- XiAus 9y agohttp://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/uts-professor-prevented-from-boarding-flight-from-china/8386982 http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/uts-professor-preve... https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/asia/china-xinjiang-ban-muslim-names-muhammad-jihad.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/asia/china-xinji... https://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/2017/05/03/china-bullied-australia-into-ejecting-taiwan-next-time-show-china-the-door https://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/2017/05/03/china-bul... We are dealing with an increasingly totalitarian state, which bullies other countries through money. Present Chinese leadership is increasingly dictator like and has conflicts with every neighbour. China is not good news for our future. Western countries beauty is the free speech culture. You have to experience the suffocation of living in China, the fear of retribution and no basic han rights accorded to you. Trade with China should be shunned, hope was that trade would make the society open but instead it has made them even more brutalistic on the citizens.
- cubicofpower 9y agodoes that not sound like US? "bullies other countries through money"
- unityByFreedom 9y agoBlocking other speakers isn't speech, and it is not protected. Speaking out against an invited speaker is free speech, but if they were successful in blocking an invitation, that would be grounds for a lawsuit against the university. So, condemning China for their attempts to block a speaker isn't so wrong. They have the right to say what they like. However, when they say "this is trampling my free speech rights" they're just as wrong as democrats who felt that way about Milo at Berkeley. It often takes a lawsuit to demonstrate what is and isn't free speech. There are some good examples on thefire.org [1] which I learned about during the Yale Halloween costume debacle. [1] https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/free-speech/ https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/free-speech/
- princetontiger 9y agoChina doesn't represent Anglo Saxon culture or ideals. Canada, NZ, Australia, the UK and the US are the reason we have freedom of everything.
- sjg007 9y agoI've met Chinese grad students who said the students at Tianamen square were terrorists.
- gaius 9y agoA friend of mine played hosts to some Chinese students in London, as there was one happening he took them along to a demonstration that was happening that day. They were utterly baffled, he said, they asked why anyone would want to protest against the government?
- taobility 9y agohow is your feeling about the UC Berkeley campus's protest? Someone called them riot
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- unityByFreedom 9y agoFor better or for worse, China's interpretation of freedom seems to match their culture. Culturally, in much of Asia, criticizing someone else is more offensive than in the West. "Saving face" seems more prevalent to me in Eastern offices and families than Western institutions. So, punishing someone for offensive speech in China probably feels normal to a lot of people. More people there avoid pointing out each other's mistakes, and talk miles around problems to avoid that. I think that results in a situation where people spend effort trying to win certain battles that people in the West would let go.
- dang 9y agoUrl changed from https://outline.com/RFwceY https://outline.com/RFwceY, which copies this, which violates the HN guidelines, which ask submitters to submit original sources. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- glubGlub 9y agoGood for them. What a waste of time. China can't even tell that there really wasn't any anti-China anything at college campuses to begin with. It's like me going to a bakery and making sure they aren't putting hand grenades in the ovens, and posting conspicuous warning signs about the dangers hand grenade shrapnel poses to croissants and the people who eat them. What is it with totalitarian states, and this thing where they don't get that it's not about them? I hope they keep it up. If this is their idea of effective sentiment manipulation, fucking awesome. I'd love to see what happens if we turn up the volume on this kind of ridiculously inept play at influence. I'd imagine it starts to look not unlike sudden emails from Nigerian princes, thoughtfully explaining their ardent desires to share their clutch of investments with me, if only I'd helpfully provide the bank account to wire all that fabulous money into.
- ashwinaj 9y agoAt some point, someone with gravitas has to come out and say "Money is not everything!". In Flint, MI city officials say, "We're not spending money to upgrade water pipes" For healthcare, "I don't want to pay for somebody else's healthcare" For housing "I don't want a low income neighborhood next to mine reducing my property value" For race relations "The criminal justice system is just fine" ....And now "Don't offend the Chinese" This has to stop, money is not everything. At some point we need to do what's right (and show empathy) before money. There are lots of things that people don't like, the world doesn't revolve around them. If the US claims to be a free society and wants to uphold it's true values, man the eff up and stop catering to almighty dollar. It'll hurt in the short term, but will bear dividends later.
- lambdasquirrel 9y agoI'm going to take the contrarian position, just so people understand why this is so. For the uninitiated, read up the history of Tibet. They haven't always been peaceful monks. Most notably, the Tibetans sacked the capital of the Tang dynasty — one of China's most brilliant in terms of cultural accomplishments — in that dynasty's twilight years. For the Chinese, unity is a matter of culture and national security. Surely you Americans would understand this. And for this reason, control of the Tibetan buffer region is paramount because it would otherwise be the ideal place to coerce or invade China. And for that reason, and because Westerners so choose to ignore their own hypocracies, I too support the denunciation of the Dalai Lama.
- plandis 9y agoI'm sorry but I have to ask: are you Chinese? This isn't a counter argument. You're argument is literally people in the geographical region of Tibet did something to another group over a thousand years ago and that justifies the hatred of the Dalai Lama. I feel bad that you're so indoctrinated, I really do.
- yongjik 9y ago> Most notably, the Tibetans sacked the capital of the Tang dynasty — one of China's most brilliant in terms of cultural accomplishments — in that dynasty's twilight years. So you're saying Tibetans were a proud, independent people whose strength once even matched that of the famous Tang Empire? I don't think your argument is helping your position...
- yumraj 9y agoWhat "unity"? Tibet was never a part of China. It's like US were to invade and occupy Canada and Mexico and then justify its actions in the name of North American unity..
- int_19h 9y agoThat right there - where you call the homeland of a nation a "buffer region" - is the problem. China has the right to take care of its national security, sure. But not at the expense of the right to self-determination of other nations. Regardless of all that, though, Dalai Lama coming to speak is not an "attack" on Chinese students.
- ReligiousFlames 9y agoLet's not forget the market pressures watering-down American Hollywood movies to not being banned in China. http://www.businessinsider.com/hollywood-movies-in-china-2016-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/hollywood-movies-in-china-201...
- bombless 9y agoNot sure why it use this title… click bait?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- cubicofpower 9y agoObviously, our government is not doing the same thing with their defense budget, my friends. Our government is the cleanest government in the world who would not go down a road to suppress free-speech. Com'on Prism is just a Russian Scam. It feels really funny when U.S. nationalist trying to sell some ideas themselves won't buy. Be aware the Chinese government, in this case, is not providing political support in any sort, it's just doing the things every big corp, organizations, PACs, can do with money. How about critizing all those instead of just one.