8 ms·
Why are crime victims being jailed?
- sqldba 9y agoIf you want someone to commit perjury out of spite then do this.
- sillysaurus3 9y agoThat would be a remarkably dumb thing to do. When the system is screwing you over, rebelling is usually the worst decision.
- throwaway2048 9y agoIt seems the remarkably dumb thing to do is to come forth as a witness. A good chance you get thrown in jail for it.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago"I don't remember. Recent traumatic experiences are all I can think about."
- mirimir 9y agoOK, in my fantasy world, material witnesses are at most put in protective custody, in a nice hotel or safe house. They're not arrested like criminals, and thrown in jail. So why don't they do that?
- BeetleB 9y agoSomeone I knew was held for a long period of time as a material witness. Initially in a jail cell, but eventually released with restrictions to his wife (restrictions involving travel outside of state, etc). Because of this, he lost his job. Because of that, he lost his wife. Their reasoning: He was a flight risk. But he wasn't. They had never attempted to contact him to ask him to testify. And he had cooperated with them in the past. They just picked him up, and threw him in jail. More than a year later, they had the trial. He was never called to the stand. So all this pain because they wanted him to testify, and he was never called to testify. He sued. His case went to the Supreme Court eventually. Unfortunately, he lost the case. But he did win some minor cases and got damages in the six figures. Not enough in my opinion...
- mixmastamyk 9y agoWould like to read that story.
- self 9y agoThis is the story: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/16/idaho-student-regrets-compensation-post-911-arrest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/16/idaho-studen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._al-Kidd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._al-Kidd https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/10-98.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/10-98.pdf https://www.aclu.org/cases/abdullah-al-kidd-v-united-states-et-al https://www.aclu.org/cases/abdullah-al-kidd-v-united-states-...
- jjt-yn_t 9y agoI have a similar but unlikely situation, and unlikely to see any material gain nor trial nor day in jail. Figure that one out.
- killedbydeath 9y agoI am amazed by the "lost his wife" part. What did she say in her wedding vows, "I take you as a husband from this day forward and until our combined income falls below 75% of the average income over the previous 3 years"?
- woogiewonka 9y agoI'm sure it wasn't the direct result of job loss but the events that escalated after the fact. Any married person knows the stress job loss has on a relationship after extended periods of unemployment.
- zeroer 9y agoThis kind of story is not so uncommon, you know.
- r00fus 9y ago
- azernik 9y agoBecause they're looking for leverage to force witnesses to cooperate. "Testify, or else."
- fictioncircle 9y agoIt drives up costs and they have budget concerns would be my guess.
- mirimir 9y agoSure, I get that. But it's still just so totally wrong.
- fictioncircle 9y agoI never said it was morally correct. I answered the question.
- kijin 9y agoKeeping people locked up also costs a lot of money. But I guess it's not the prosecutor's office who pays that bill.
- fictioncircle 9y agoCorrect. It is not the prosecutor's office who pays the bill.
- Animats 9y agoUp until 1984, that was often done. Then, under the Reagan Administration, Congress changed the law to specify that material witnesses were to be given the same treatment as criminal defendants.[1] [1] http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1355&context=lawreview http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...
- mirimir 9y agoThat is just insane. Defendants <> witnesses.
- VLM 9y agoWitness intimidation. If the journalist worked just a little harder he would have found the DA or judge obtained something from someone as a bribe. The vast majority of the time, punishing the victim results in the desired outcome and the defendant gets away with it. Someone has enough power to use "the system" to destroy my life because I saw something, of course I'll testify that sure I was there but I was scared so I didn't get a good look. I have a spouse and kids and not enough life insurance. Its pretty funny the discussion here in general is not about casual corruption which is almost certainly the problem but instead is wandering into weird ranting about how bad it is or surely its all Trumps fault...
- tehlike 9y agoIf there is a law that could be abused, no matter how good the intention of the law is, law enforcement could abuse it. This is why I totally believe in slippery slope argument when it comes to laws. Privacy comes to mind, and I cheer EFF for standing up for us, the people of the united states, even in contraversial cases where the suspect is the actual criminal in a trial.
- lb1lf 9y agoThe most -ahem- interesting takeaway from this story IMHO is that Orleans Parish DA Cannizzaro describes being jailed as a material witness as an inconvenience. If I were a local judge, I'd love the opportunity to lock him up for a few weeks just to have that 'inconvenience' metered out on himself.
- ilaksh 9y agoThe FBI should investigate. The dealer probably bribed the DA to jail the witness to intimidate him.
- Markoff 9y agowhy am I not surprised i knew prior opening article it will be about US just by reading title?
- unityByFreedom 9y ago> The Orleans Parish DA's office was forced to apologise last week after it was found to have been issuing so-called "DA's subpoenas" - a fake subpoena which warns witnesses that they could be fined or sent to jail for ignoring it, despite having no such authority. A spokesman for the DA said the office would immediately stop issuing the notices. At what point can a DA be criminally charged? Does that ever happen? Who oversees state's attorneys? It seems clear in this case that the judge felt the DA misrepresented the reasons for their warrant at best, and lied at worst. Sounds like it could be criminal
- zkms 9y agoIANAL but I know there's laws against impersonating a law-enforcement officer; I would not be surprised if falsely asserting authority of law with fake court orders / legal processes is similarly criminalised.
- vfclists 9y agoWhat proportion of the people jailed under these laws are Black or Hispanic?
- spodek 9y agoor male?
- kutkloon7 9y agoWhat worries me the most is the ease with which the DA lies to the judge. The bus ticket was obviously made up, and besides: How would the DA know that Mitchell had purchased a bus ticket? The judge should have realized this. She either a) is incapable of doing her job right, b) does not realize the impact and risks of locking someone up, or c) just doesn't care
- valuearb 9y agoDon't talk to the police. They aren't your friends.
- colemickens 9y agoedit: I never should've opened my mouth, whenever will I learn...
- wutbrodo 9y agoI literally have no idea what you're talking about and now I'm actually really curious to find out what I'm missing. The concept of the material witness process being abused is relatively new to me, and I can't think of any other "obvious" issue that it maps to easily. EDIT: Since you deleted your response claiming I should read the article more closely and quoting the section on abuse during 9/11, here's my reply: If you actually _read_ the article instead of looking for buzzwords and rushing to post a comment (first!), you'll find that most of the examples have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism: the first few examples are a guy shot on a basketball court, rape and DV victims, etc. If you think that anti-terrorism is the reason behind those material witness arrests, then I'm afraid your confusion runs far too deep for a closer reading of the article to help.
- tehlike 9y agoyour point is correct, but we have seen way too many instances where laws originating due to terrorism (patriot act comes to mind) gets abused for randomly spying on the citizens of the united states. Terrorism is also the underlying reason why some of these laws are not overruled and are still in place. When the law is in place, law enforcement is free to use it, even if the intention of the law is different. It's lawful.
- wutbrodo 9y agoI'm not sure this law falls under that category. It's been around since the 1800s,far far far longer than the phenomenon of modern terrorism shaping US politics.
- tehlike 9y agohttps://www.hrw.org/news/2011/01/28/us-misuse-material-witness-statute https://www.hrw.org/news/2011/01/28/us-misuse-material-witne... I think my point is, as long as these exists there is probably less pressure to update the law?
- sandworm101 9y agoMaterial witness warrants are why tourists should really think twice about the US. "if it is shown that it may become impracticable to secure the presence of the person by subpoena, a judicial officer may order the arrest of the person" https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3144 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3144 That means any witness who intends on leaving the jurisdiction anytime soon may be arrested. And once arrested, bail is difficult given that you are being held because you might flee. So any tourist who is victimized in the US, and may therefore be wanted as a witness, should seriously consider revisiting their travel plans.
- bluejekyll 9y agoHow do these laws differ in other countries? Don't many European countries have similar provisions for guaranteeing access to witnesses?
- _ak 9y agoThe wonders of modern technology allow witnesses to be interviewed remotely. Many courts actually do that.
- panzer_wyrm 9y agoNot quite. You can generally leave but must returned when summoned. You may have a interpol notice sent to your country if you refuse to come voluntarily.
- sqldba 9y agoWho pays for it and organises the visas and your work and stuff?
- panzer_wyrm 9y agoI guess you. Not the government.
- sandworm101 9y ago
- fencepost 9y agoI'd have no problem with material witness warrants and mailing as long as the witness gets independent outside counsel paid for by the prosecutor's office. They must not be used to drive up costs and workloads on the public defender offices, particularly in Louisiana where they're so underfunded and overworked already.
- cperciva 9y agoI'd add another requirement: They should get the same "can't be fired for missing work" rules as people summoned for jury duty. Whether you're a juror or a witness, you're being required to perform a public service; there's no justification for having different rules.
- Broken_Hippo 9y agoNor should your family starve for not producing income from said job. Just as important, you shouldn't lose your children - I'm guessing this happens if you are a single parent.
- mnm1 9y agoAnother reason to stay silent. Never talk to the police and they won't have a reason, most of the time, to issue one of these warrants. And if they do, still don't talk. Fuck a system that puts its victims in jail. This is not justice. These prosecutors' jobs should not be made easier. Justice would be these prosecutors landing in gen pop. Yeah, it's dangerous.
- tehlike 9y agoI am originally from Turkey, but reside in CA. We have some sort of "rule of thumb", if you will, that reads "don't talk (to the police) they might write you down as a witness" Though situations are a bit different, the overall message probably applies here too. Also, if there is a law that could be abused, no matter how good the intention of the law is, it will be abused. This is why I cheer up EFF for standing up for the people of the united states, even in contraversial cases that might involve actual criminals.
- PaulAJ 9y agoTurkey is not alone. India has a similar problem. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-39664906 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-39664906 Trouble is, in the short term this means more crimes get solved, but in the longer term it means everybody automatically denying that they saw anything, and more crimes go unsolved.
- xg15 9y ago> Another reason to stay silent. Never talk to the police and they won't have a reason, most of the time, to issue one of these warrants. And if they do, still don't talk. So we shouldn't investigate any crimes then? (I agree with you that putting victims in jail without rights is a horrible practice and should be stopped, but your post sounds closer to getting rid of police alltogether)
- wand3r 9y agoI live in a small town but have been pulled over in the neighboring states and numerous towns in the last few months. Never thought I'd say this; but as someone who has had problems w/ cops in the past; they seem to be MUCH more courteous. I think it is a combo of things; I am older, have been out of trouble a few years; etc. I am white (which helps) but having 5+ positive experiences-- 1 of which could've been serious; cops have been great! Idk if there has been a push to retrain them or policy changes but I have been impressed. It's weird never having a positive experience until recently; and I am still very on guard; but not all police are the enemy. Prosecutors like that; bad cops-- they exist and I would never be complacent around them-- but there are people working in a broken system who are good and helpful. My $0.02
- zw123456 9y agoAs someone who is 1)Rich(relatively) 2)White, and who has been falsely accused, and harassed by the police for idiotic reasons, I have an enormous amount of sympathy. I went through something similar a couple of times in my life where I had to fight to prove my innocence against incompetent and frankly really stupid police officers who where in my opinion, mainly big assholes who just wanted to bully people. I can say that had I not been pretty wealthy and able to afford lawyers I am pretty sure they would have fucked me over. Once something like that happens to you, you start to sort of understand how someone less fortunate can really get screwed over pretty easily.
- vinbreau 9y agoSame here. I was once assaulted by a police officer on the property where my father worked. The cop was employed as security and did not wear his badge openly. He was dressed in civilian clothes with his badge on his belt, behind his back. He verbally accosted me on a visit to my dad's place of work. Not knowing he was a cop I let him know where to go. He grabbed me, bent my arm behind my back and shoved me face first through hard metal doors. My father was livid and got in on the argument, on my side. I had bruises all over my face, neck and arms. I filed a complaint against him, but a week later he was part of the largest cocaine bust in my town's history. As a result he was beyond reproach. I've got a few other encounters like this, though not as bad. Not all cops I've run in with were bad, some were more than reasonable, but the bad encounters outweigh the good at least 3 to 1. Give a power tripping person a badge and a gun, hide them behind the blue code and the average civilian has little to no recourse.
- zw123456 9y agoIt is interesting, almost everyone I know has a story where some cop abused there authority. When people start sharing their stories, it is always amazing to me how many people chime in with similar encounters. Until it happens to you, people don't realize how frightening and scaring it is. I completely feel for you. I was physically ill for weeks after my encounter. I believe that it is a problem that is far more pervasive than maybe is realized.
- theprop 9y agoFinally...something truly horrible that can't be blamed on Trump!
- glubGlub 9y agoIs this Hacker News? I can't tell.
- pmoriarty 9y agoWhat is the objection against providing witnesses with at least the same legal protections as defendants?
- easilyBored 9y agoI get the idea: you saw something and the state forces you to testify to what you saw to solve the crime. It's a noble idea to punish the perpetrator and make the country safer. In reality, most of the time it's best not to see or hear anything.