7 ms·

The effort to say something about yesterday and about today is an obsolete overhead. Sometimes one is just stuck for couple of days with bloated and partially o

The effort to say something about yesterday and about today is an obsolete overhead. Sometimes one is just stuck for couple of days with bloated and partially obsolete Java setup, sometimes one has done nothing and needs a break instead of daily confessions. Saying these might be perceived arrogant or disrespectful. I perceive standups as an immature way to discipline developers.

Confusion 10y ago
So just say "still working on ..." or "didn't get much done today, ...". We understand.
- jakubp 10y ago
  The latter statement undermines your position in the group. Not a smart thing to say long-term.
matthewmacleod 10y ago
Saying these might be perceived arrogant or disrespectful. I perceive standups as an immature way to discipline developers. If this is what's happening in a team, then there is something more broken than unnecessary stand-ups. It should be perfectly acceptable to talk openly an honestly about the things that you have or have not been able to do. If you're in a situation where you have to 'hide' the work you have been doing, then your team atmosphere is poisonous and avoiding stand-ups is not going to fix that.
- jakubp 10y ago
  If you're in a situation where you have to 'hide' the work you have been doing, then your team atmosphere is poisonous and avoiding stand-ups is not going to fix that. Unfortunate office reality is that it's sometimes beneficial to withdraw by "hiding" your work or by not contributing openly to a discussion. The benefit is in avoiding (negative) spotlight, avoiding additional work or pressure, or similar consequences. This can happen even in an otherwise happy and supportive environment. If you're not pushed too hard by anyone, you can become complacent and settle on doing less. You can argue this is poisonous, but I'm not sure many people would call those "low ambition" or "low stress" or "hands off management" environments poisonous.
bshimmin 10y ago
I really don't see why it has to be that way, and if people feel like that, there's something weird going on. If you've been given a large feature that involves, say, analytics, there is surely nothing wrong with your standup contribution being: "Yesterday, analytics. Today, analytics. Yes, I said the same yesterday, it's a big job, but it's going fine. Anyone can come over and ask me about analytics if they like! No blockers. Thanks." It tells people what you're doing and that it's broadly going ok. If you're five days into something that was supposed to take three days and you're actively embarrassed about this, then that's a problem - but it's a problem that should be discussed at the end of the third day with the stakeholders, not in the standup.
- rejschaap 10y ago
  The problem is you feel like you need to justify working on one thing for two days: "Yes, I said the same yesterday, it's a big job, but it's going fine." and, this is even more defensive, you feel people will not believe you so you invite them to see some proof: "Anyone can come over and ask me about analytics if they like!" Maybe the biggest problem is this though: "Yesterday, analytics. Today, analytics" This task needs to be broken up into manageable pieces badly.
  - matthewmacleod 10y ago
    This task needs to be broken up into manageable pieces badly. This would also be my immediate thought as well. "Yesterday I setup integration with the analytics service. Today, I'm going to audit the places where we currently send analytics and see if it would be possible to centralise it – I'll share the results later". It's hard to track progress and estimate if your tickets are huge multi-week affairs.
    - bshimmin 10y ago
      Thanks one and all for the responses to my comment, which was written in some haste but seems to have generated useful discussion nonetheless. Just responding to this one, I would say that it really depends. If your task is implementing analytics and no one else on the team has anything much to do with it, then maybe it's best not to trouble them with the specifics. Your summary is much better, and only a few extra words, but if no one really cares about the analytics except to know that it's cheerfully in progress, maybe it's not all that necessary to go into more detail. This is definitely something you need to be wary of in a multi-disciplinary team. Also, I didn't mean "Anyone can come over and ask me about analytics if they like!" to sound defensive - it was actually more tongue-in-cheek! Here's another attempt: "I can't imagine why you would want to bore yourself with my analytics implementation, but please come over and ask me about it if you're having trouble sleeping at night." (I will freely admit that I am a confident person and would have no trouble saying something like that in front of a dozen people.)
pionar 10y ago
> Sometimes one is just stuck for couple of days with bloated and partially obsolete Java setup That's the whole point of the standup. If I was stuck with something like some "Java setup", whatever that is, I'd let others know. Maybe someone will pipe up and say, "Oh yeah, I've seen that before, just do x", or "Let's get together after the standup and try to figure it out together."
- dasmoth 10y ago
  Sometimes that's the right answer, sometimes it's better to just hit your head against it for a while. (This can be an individual thing, I'm definitely a learn-by-doing type and need to be "spinning my wheels" sometimes. Others benefit from talking things through). It would be nice to be trusted to make this call rather than having a ritual to force the talk-things-through option every time.
- DanielBMarkham 10y ago
  Yes. Exactly. 99% of the standup is allowing people to help each other and dynamically set their agenda for the day. If it's a status report or just a bunch of people trying to make up cool-sounding stuff they did? You're doing it wrong.
- sheepmullet 10y ago
  Why do you need a standup meeting? Do you think that before standups were common developers just spent weeks spinning their wheels?
- Udik 10y ago
  If you need a standup to mention that you're stuck on something like that and ask for help, then your team is not functioning, agile or not agile.

Confusion 10y ago

So just say "still working on ..." or "didn't get much done today, ...". We understand.

jakubp 10y ago
The latter statement undermines your position in the group. Not a smart thing to say long-term.

matthewmacleod 10y ago

Saying these might be perceived arrogant or disrespectful. I perceive standups as an immature way to discipline developers. If this is what's happening in a team, then there is something more broken than unnecessary stand-ups. It should be perfectly acceptable to talk openly an honestly about the things that you have or have not been able to do. If you're in a situation where you have to 'hide' the work you have been doing, then your team atmosphere is poisonous and avoiding stand-ups is not going to fix that.

jakubp 10y ago
If you're in a situation where you have to 'hide' the work you have been doing, then your team atmosphere is poisonous and avoiding stand-ups is not going to fix that. Unfortunate office reality is that it's sometimes beneficial to withdraw by "hiding" your work or by not contributing openly to a discussion. The benefit is in avoiding (negative) spotlight, avoiding additional work or pressure, or similar consequences. This can happen even in an otherwise happy and supportive environment. If you're not pushed too hard by anyone, you can become complacent and settle on doing less. You can argue this is poisonous, but I'm not sure many people would call those "low ambition" or "low stress" or "hands off management" environments poisonous.

bshimmin 10y ago

I really don't see why it has to be that way, and if people feel like that, there's something weird going on. If you've been given a large feature that involves, say, analytics, there is surely nothing wrong with your standup contribution being: "Yesterday, analytics. Today, analytics. Yes, I said the same yesterday, it's a big job, but it's going fine. Anyone can come over and ask me about analytics if they like! No blockers. Thanks." It tells people what you're doing and that it's broadly going ok. If you're five days into something that was supposed to take three days and you're actively embarrassed about this, then that's a problem - but it's a problem that should be discussed at the end of the third day with the stakeholders, not in the standup.

rejschaap 10y ago
The problem is you feel like you need to justify working on one thing for two days: "Yes, I said the same yesterday, it's a big job, but it's going fine." and, this is even more defensive, you feel people will not believe you so you invite them to see some proof: "Anyone can come over and ask me about analytics if they like!" Maybe the biggest problem is this though: "Yesterday, analytics. Today, analytics" This task needs to be broken up into manageable pieces badly.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  This task needs to be broken up into manageable pieces badly. This would also be my immediate thought as well. "Yesterday I setup integration with the analytics service. Today, I'm going to audit the places where we currently send analytics and see if it would be possible to centralise it – I'll share the results later". It's hard to track progress and estimate if your tickets are huge multi-week affairs.
  - bshimmin 10y ago
    Thanks one and all for the responses to my comment, which was written in some haste but seems to have generated useful discussion nonetheless. Just responding to this one, I would say that it really depends. If your task is implementing analytics and no one else on the team has anything much to do with it, then maybe it's best not to trouble them with the specifics. Your summary is much better, and only a few extra words, but if no one really cares about the analytics except to know that it's cheerfully in progress, maybe it's not all that necessary to go into more detail. This is definitely something you need to be wary of in a multi-disciplinary team. Also, I didn't mean "Anyone can come over and ask me about analytics if they like!" to sound defensive - it was actually more tongue-in-cheek! Here's another attempt: "I can't imagine why you would want to bore yourself with my analytics implementation, but please come over and ask me about it if you're having trouble sleeping at night." (I will freely admit that I am a confident person and would have no trouble saying something like that in front of a dozen people.)

pionar 10y ago

> Sometimes one is just stuck for couple of days with bloated and partially obsolete Java setup That's the whole point of the standup. If I was stuck with something like some "Java setup", whatever that is, I'd let others know. Maybe someone will pipe up and say, "Oh yeah, I've seen that before, just do x", or "Let's get together after the standup and try to figure it out together."

dasmoth 10y ago
Sometimes that's the right answer, sometimes it's better to just hit your head against it for a while. (This can be an individual thing, I'm definitely a learn-by-doing type and need to be "spinning my wheels" sometimes. Others benefit from talking things through). It would be nice to be trusted to make this call rather than having a ritual to force the talk-things-through option every time.
DanielBMarkham 10y ago
Yes. Exactly. 99% of the standup is allowing people to help each other and dynamically set their agenda for the day. If it's a status report or just a bunch of people trying to make up cool-sounding stuff they did? You're doing it wrong.
sheepmullet 10y ago
Why do you need a standup meeting? Do you think that before standups were common developers just spent weeks spinning their wheels?
Udik 10y ago
If you need a standup to mention that you're stuck on something like that and ask for help, then your team is not functioning, agile or not agile.