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What if I think investigators are following me, so I get a friend to drive my car around all day, "wasting" their time. Am I now guilty of a crime? Seems like U

What if I think investigators are following me, so I get a friend to drive my car around all day, "wasting" their time. Am I now guilty of a crime? Seems like Uber did the same kinda thing.

gertef 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice#Obstruction_trends https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice#Obstruc...
- ZoF 9y ago
  A real cogent and meaningful contribution. Thanks. If there is no formally defined investigation, how can you possibly call 'obstruction of justice.'
nradov 9y ago
If the prosecutor is able to prove intent and you had committed some other crime as well then yes, you and your friend could potentially both be convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. This isn't some kind of game; judges don't look favorably on defendants playing tricks.
- inetknght 9y ago
  Note to self: if I find a car following me, I should immediately turn myself in to authorities or face "repercussions".
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    It would likely be the safe thing to do? Are you going to drive to your house or workplace and park and see what they do? Maybe the repercussions wouldn't be from the authorities, in your hypothetical situation.
  - memmcgee 9y ago
    Wtf are you saying?
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    You're missing the other point. You had to also have committed a crime.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  That sounds as fake of a crime as money laundering. Certainly misleading officials that haven't identified as being on official business should not be a crime.
  - derefr 9y ago
    The point wasn't who you ended up misleading, but that your intent was to mislead investigators in particular. Throwing a brick off the top of a building into a crowded street is attempted murder, even if it doesn't hit anybody, because clearly you had intent to drop the brick on a person's head.
    - chx 9y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
  - nappy 9y ago
    *as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?
    - MichaelGG 9y ago
      I have money for whatever reason. I pump it through a business of mine, paying taxes, etc. Normally this is totally fine - I'm not using it to commit fraud against investors, I'm paying taxes, etc. The important thing is that no one is being harmed, it's just me seeking some privacy in my own finances, and perhaps losing some money for the privilege (I may be spending post-tax money). Or perhaps it's simpler than that. I have a bunch of money in geographic location A, and I want to spend it in B, so I put it in a suitcase and walk/fly/drive on over. Now LE comes along and says, gee whiz, our jobs are really hard having to catch criminals doing criminal stuff. You know, let's make it illegal to use your money as you like, to have any sort of privacy in your transactions. Tada, now they can just go after people for moving money around. The sad thing is, they've won. They've made "money laundering" sound like something serious, instead of totally made up to make their jobs easy, and people seem to support such laws. Maybe they'll call encryption "data laundering", "bit smuggling", "safety obstruction" or something catchy to get people against it.
mirimir 9y ago
Well, there's civil forfeiture ;) I wonder if that's been used against Uber drivers.
pyre 9y ago
If you believe that they are attempting to investigate you, and you intend to lead them on a wild goose chase, then it would be obstruction of justice. The word mincing that you're trying to do here is like trying to claim that murdering someone is just "moving some molecules around" and "moving molecules around isn't illegal." If you put into action a plan that's intent is to mislead investigators that you believe are attempting to investigate you, then how do you claim that this can't be obstruction of justice? They are attempting to obstruct the investigation. What you are doing to trying to evaluate the action separate from the intent, and claim that it's innocuous because there could be many explanations for the action. Obviously at trial, the DoJ would be trying to prove intent, so trying to ignore it doesn't really make sense.
- dorgo 9y ago
  So it doesn't really matter what I do. If I have the intention to obstruct justice then I can stay at home and act criminally by doing so? Nice one. At this point I'm sure I'm a criminal. I don't know what my crime is, but I'm sure layers will tell me before they throw me into jail.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Intent is a factor. Also, even though law is like computer code in being pretty specific and executable, it's unlike computer code in being executed by humans. Or, like XKCD puts it, https://xkcd.com/1494/ https://xkcd.com/1494/. Or, more simply, judges are not stupid and can figure out if you're playing games with them.
  - ForHackernews 9y ago
    It does matter what you do. Criminal law recognizes two elements to a crime: mens rea ("guilty mind") and actus reus ("guilty act") http://law.jrank.org/pages/22506/Criminal-Law-Elements-Crime-Mens-Rea-Actus-Reus.html http://law.jrank.org/pages/22506/Criminal-Law-Elements-Crime... If there's no actus reus in your example, then there's no crime.
- cryptarch 9y ago
  What if you think it's a private investigator because they're plainclothes officers? Your points relating to Uber stand, I'm just wondering how it'd work in the case of an individual feeling like they are being shadowed.

What if I think investigators are following me, so I get a friend to drive my car around all day, "wasting" their time. Am I now guilty of a crime? Seems like Uber did the same kinda thing.

gertef 9y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice#Obstruction_trends https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice#Obstruc...

ZoF 9y ago
A real cogent and meaningful contribution. Thanks. If there is no formally defined investigation, how can you possibly call 'obstruction of justice.'

nradov 9y ago

If the prosecutor is able to prove intent and you had committed some other crime as well then yes, you and your friend could potentially both be convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. This isn't some kind of game; judges don't look favorably on defendants playing tricks.

inetknght 9y ago
Note to self: if I find a car following me, I should immediately turn myself in to authorities or face "repercussions".
- wavefunction 9y ago
  It would likely be the safe thing to do? Are you going to drive to your house or workplace and park and see what they do? Maybe the repercussions wouldn't be from the authorities, in your hypothetical situation.
- memmcgee 9y ago
  Wtf are you saying?
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  You're missing the other point. You had to also have committed a crime.
MichaelGG 9y ago
That sounds as fake of a crime as money laundering. Certainly misleading officials that haven't identified as being on official business should not be a crime.
- derefr 9y ago
  The point wasn't who you ended up misleading, but that your intent was to mislead investigators in particular. Throwing a brick off the top of a building into a crowded street is attempted murder, even if it doesn't hit anybody, because clearly you had intent to drop the brick on a person's head.
  - chx 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea
- nappy 9y ago
  *as How is money laundering a "fake" crime?
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    I have money for whatever reason. I pump it through a business of mine, paying taxes, etc. Normally this is totally fine - I'm not using it to commit fraud against investors, I'm paying taxes, etc. The important thing is that no one is being harmed, it's just me seeking some privacy in my own finances, and perhaps losing some money for the privilege (I may be spending post-tax money). Or perhaps it's simpler than that. I have a bunch of money in geographic location A, and I want to spend it in B, so I put it in a suitcase and walk/fly/drive on over. Now LE comes along and says, gee whiz, our jobs are really hard having to catch criminals doing criminal stuff. You know, let's make it illegal to use your money as you like, to have any sort of privacy in your transactions. Tada, now they can just go after people for moving money around. The sad thing is, they've won. They've made "money laundering" sound like something serious, instead of totally made up to make their jobs easy, and people seem to support such laws. Maybe they'll call encryption "data laundering", "bit smuggling", "safety obstruction" or something catchy to get people against it.

mirimir 9y ago

Well, there's civil forfeiture ;) I wonder if that's been used against Uber drivers.

pyre 9y ago

If you believe that they are attempting to investigate you, and you intend to lead them on a wild goose chase, then it would be obstruction of justice. The word mincing that you're trying to do here is like trying to claim that murdering someone is just "moving some molecules around" and "moving molecules around isn't illegal." If you put into action a plan that's intent is to mislead investigators that you believe are attempting to investigate you, then how do you claim that this can't be obstruction of justice? They are attempting to obstruct the investigation. What you are doing to trying to evaluate the action separate from the intent, and claim that it's innocuous because there could be many explanations for the action. Obviously at trial, the DoJ would be trying to prove intent, so trying to ignore it doesn't really make sense.

dorgo 9y ago
So it doesn't really matter what I do. If I have the intention to obstruct justice then I can stay at home and act criminally by doing so? Nice one. At this point I'm sure I'm a criminal. I don't know what my crime is, but I'm sure layers will tell me before they throw me into jail.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Intent is a factor. Also, even though law is like computer code in being pretty specific and executable, it's unlike computer code in being executed by humans. Or, like XKCD puts it, https://xkcd.com/1494/ https://xkcd.com/1494/. Or, more simply, judges are not stupid and can figure out if you're playing games with them.
- ForHackernews 9y ago
  It does matter what you do. Criminal law recognizes two elements to a crime: mens rea ("guilty mind") and actus reus ("guilty act") http://law.jrank.org/pages/22506/Criminal-Law-Elements-Crime-Mens-Rea-Actus-Reus.html http://law.jrank.org/pages/22506/Criminal-Law-Elements-Crime... If there's no actus reus in your example, then there's no crime.
cryptarch 9y ago
What if you think it's a private investigator because they're plainclothes officers? Your points relating to Uber stand, I'm just wondering how it'd work in the case of an individual feeling like they are being shadowed.