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I wouldn't post anything on HN that I wouldn't want my boss to see, and frankly if I was your boss I wouldn't be that happy that: "I just tend to bullshit my w

I wouldn't post anything on HN that I wouldn't want my boss to see, and frankly if I was your boss I wouldn't be that happy that: "I just tend to bullshit my way through a work week.." "..build interfaces that look like I'm doing the work when in fact I'm not." "Sometimes I'll allot a week for something, not do anything on it, and then complete it all a day before it's due" "it helps to get good at bullshitting" Honestly, you don't sound professional. To me it's one thing to say, hey I'm burned out and I need to take a half day today. Or hey, I'm burned out, what if I worked on developer tooling for a few days to recharge my batteries. But lying during meetings and distorting what you are working on are fireable offences, and even if you feel comfortable being that shameless and unethical on your own accord, why the heck would you give advice to someone else to do the same? Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm bewildered by this post.

poikniok 9y ago
Right, as a boss I would love for my employees to work themselves to death to please me. God forbid they take a break once every couple of months. Because please be real, your suggestion is absurd. Somebody is burned out so they should work on developer tooling for a few days? When somebody is burned out doing more work is not going to help.
- superplussed 9y ago
  Again, I said there is nothing wrong with taking a break. To me working on developer tooling is taking a break. Maybe to you it isn't, so going to someone's desk for a chat would work for you, or going to play ping-pong in the lounge. My one and only point is that lying to your employer, to set yourself up so that you can somehow get through your low-points, means you are either in the wrong job or in the wrong profession. Be a professional and do your honest best, that's all.
  - poikniok 9y ago
    That would be great if employers actually let you take a break. Instead what will happen is exactly what you would probably try, which is to get the person to do some other kind of work. I am happy for you that working on developer tooling is a break for you, but for some people this is never going to be the case. Some people might only be able to work 150/250 possible work days in a year sustainably. I think this advice is aimed at those individuals. At the end of the day you have to watch out for yourself. If you work yourself to suicide the company is never going feel sympathy for you. This is a business transaction, and part of business is crafting a message that resonates with counter-parties. Companies themselves do this all the time, and it is perfectly standard.
  - jventura 9y ago
    > My one and only point is that lying to your employer, to set yourself up so that you can somehow get through your low-points, means you are either in the wrong job or in the wrong profession. Not everybody is still young in this field. Some of us have learned some "tactics" on how to handle with other humans. When I was younger and more inexperienced, I also thought that pure honesty would be rewarded with pure honesty from the other side. As long as you do things with the best of intentions, I guess some sensitivity to human conditions is a better long term approach.. I'm not really disagreeing with you, it's just that things are not so simple as you put them. If it's for you, great, but for the other 90%, it's not..
  - orthecreedence 9y ago
    > going to someone's desk for a chat would work for you, or going to play ping-pong in the lounge. These are not suggestions that come from a person who knows what creative burnout is. It's becoming clear to me that you've never actually had a good, hard two week burnout with deadlines hanging over your head and bosses breathing down your neck. Good for you, I can tell you it sucks. > means you are either in the wrong job or in the wrong profession. Be a professional and do your honest best, that's all. I am a professional. I've been through acquisitions and I've been through corporate cubicle jobs. I've founded several companies...some have failed, some have sold. I've seen a lot and learned a lot along the way, and I know how to handle a lot of different situations beyond the simple, petty mantra of "honesty is good." There are times to be honest, and there are times to hold your cards close. The world can be a harsh place, and relying on nothing but honesty and hard work to get you through it is completely naive. Other than the work you promise your employers in your contract, you owe them, honesty included, absolutely nothing. This is how they view you: a set of terms. The minute you no longer make sense, they will push you out like a popped zit. Part of being a professional means projecting an image that makes you look indispensable. Are you the person who gets their shit done, or are you the person always whining about burnout? I'm fairly convinced at this point that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. That's fine, but maybe it's a good time to stop talking. Come back to me in 10 years and tell me how far your complete honesty with your employers has gotten you. You'll be able to. I sign my name to my statements.
- julianusti 9y ago
  I think switching the context is a good way to go. As I said in one of the above comments, I was working on tooling for the week, and I was feeling good about it (I was motivated).
sotojuan 9y ago
Especially because the poster has their full contact info under their profile.
- icedchai 9y ago
  With a post like that, hopefully it's fake!
orthecreedence 9y ago
I specifically said it's not malicious, it's in reaction to my level of creativity. It's how I operate. > Honestly, you don't sound professional. > if you feel comfortable being that shameless and unethical If you can work at 100% capacity at your job all the the time, great for you. If not, then you are either completely honest with your employers about it ("I didn't get anything done this week because I'm burned out") or you do the exact same things and are taking some sort of moral high ground in your post to feel superior. It's fine if you don't agree with me giving honest advice, but keep the moral judgements to yourself when they are most likely based in hypocrisy. EDIT: Also, just want to reiterate: this happens once in a while. I'm not doing this every day. Maybe you should re-read my post?
- superplussed 9y ago
  As I said in my comments, it's not about not being at 100% capacity all of the time. No-one is, but there are honest ways to communicate that. What's crazy to me is strategically lying to your employers IN ADVANCE, to set yourself up to not do any work. Especially given that you are posting it under your name.
  - orthecreedence 9y ago
    Oh, perhaps I wasn't clear. When I say I allot a week for something (5 days), that task, working at a normal pace, would probably take 3-4 days. I'm not asking for a week when it takes a day. I'm asking for 1.5x how much I think it will take to pad. Normal practice. However sometimes, I am just not able to work on that project for a few days, and end up doing it all in one day/night after having a few days to thinking about it. For me, a good chunk of the job is thinking about it. The coding just kind of flows after that. The problem is that the thinking gets delayed =]
  - switch007 9y ago
    Employers never IN ADVANCE plan to lie to employees, right? If you ask your boss a question, you ALWAYS get a truthful answer. Life isn't black and white. What if they're a 55 year old in tech? I could imagine someone being scared shitless of saying they're "burnt out"
mnm1 9y ago
Not any less professional than the boss expecting you to work unpaid overtime, so unless he's on an hourly (or time-based) contract, I don't see a single thing wrong here. Two sides of the same coin.
surement 9y ago
What exactly is the problem with someone padding their estimates knowing there is a risk of being stuck creatively? When it happens, the estimates stand, when it doesn't, work is done faster than expected. If the parent is unfortunate enough to have to report their progress constantly, what are they supposed to do instead of bullshitting? To me that seems like a problem with their organization. What's important in terms of professionalism beyond getting work done in the time estimated? I find it bewildering that anyone would consider a completely understandable, honest testimony shameful and unethical. I'm quite happy the parent shared this as a lot of developers feel quite a bit of pressure when slumps happen, thinking that it's abnormal when it's really quite common (and really for any type of creative work).
vkou 9y ago
So, when you are in a rut, and don't feel productive at work, you take the day off as unpaid leave? Or are you always equally productive, every day that you're at work?
vanderreeah 9y ago
What's bewildering to me is that you don't sound bewildered: you sound offended. You sound like something is at stake for you in his behaviour. Which is fine, it's ok to admit that. I am personally offended by your post, for example. Your standard of "professionalism" seems too high, and in any case, as someone who believes our society is based on the exploitation of workers, I think "professionalism" is a corrupt standard in any case, and to call his position "shameless and unethical" is the height of misplaced self-righteousness.
- orthecreedence 9y ago
  Thanks, you touched on an important point for me. Workers are expected to have 110% output all the time, and nowadays to even work on nights and weekends. Arguing for pure ethics on the worker side of things while ignoring the unrealistic expectations from the employer side seems almost delusional. That said, I love my employers, love my job, and I know they love me and the work I do. I'm also a non-trivial shareholder in my company. I am incentivized to do well. But everything is a transaction, including the information we share with each other, and learning to optimize this transaction so it benefits both my overall work process and the results I give my employers is a fine line that I've learned to walk over 12 years in the professional world. I know how to optimize my output without airing every little detail of my inner workings to the rest of the team.
- mangodrunk 9y ago
  I agree with this sentiment. Do you have any references regarding this exploitation, especially in regards to knowledge workers? Now that many of us aren't involved in the process of food and energy production, it seems that we have a good opportunity to live more and work less.
  - orthecreedence 9y ago
    > Do you have any references regarding this exploitation, especially in regards to knowledge workers? Unfortunately, no, although I'm sure it would be easy enough to dig up some articles. My knowledge of the anecdotal, based on conversations with people. That said, I've had the same conversation with many people! People are working harder for less. I've even heard of people who get passed up for promotions if they use any of their vacation time. As an aside, I've said in other parts of this conversation tree but I'll say it again: I love my employers and my job, so these statements don't reflect on them. > it seems that we have a good opportunity to live more and work less. This one also hits home to me, especially with the upcoming automation boom. We need to think of wealth redistribution channels that take a higher-level view than just "let the market decide." How will anyone have jobs if there is nothing left to do? Does all the wealth just funnel to those who own the automated systems? UBI comes to mind. Many people really seem to hate it (labeling it as socialism even though it has nothing to do with workers' ownership of production) and write it off immediately as unfairly taxing the rich to give the poor a free ride. People really seem to defend the rich a lot in America, even though 100 years of a commoner's salary is pocket change to the people who would be hit hardest by a UBI. The term "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" couldn't be more true. Or maybe there's another wealth distribution mechanism that could solve the problem too, but I'm not aware of any. EDIT: just realized your response was to the parent comment, not me. Oh well, the points still stand =]
switch007 9y ago
"half a day" I wonder if you could share your burn out experience?
mangodrunk 9y ago
Focus on results, not how much or how hard someone works. Also, don't you think maybe the system is wrong to expect a creative task to be constantly worked on? Taking half a day is a joke. Working on developer tooling sounds like a joke too. Your mentality doesn't seem like a good fit for a creative task.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
firebones 9y ago
The responses attacking your point here seem to be operating under the assumption that the manager, and the OP's peers, don't recognize when someone is obfuscating their effort and/or results. People notice. "Bullshitting" is defined as "be misleading or deceptive" and the cost of this is borne not only by "management" (who presumably is in this constant mode of misleading or deceiving you), but by your peers who are dependent on you, or who are waiting for you to deliver. As someone who gets burned out from time to time, I totally get it. It's tempting. I don't know the best general solution, especially if you're in an environment of distrust (rather than what superplussed assumes). But maybe explore some other paths? If you're in a job where in order to function, you have to deceive your management AND your peers, maybe you'd be happier in a different situation or company or role. To the OP: are you trapped in your situation? (It may very well be that you are, for instance, due to market conditions or visa situation, which sheds some light on why you're opting for deception.)
- orthecreedence 9y ago
  Perhaps people notice, perhaps not. But if they do notice, they most likely understand the pressure and the situation and relate to it. I know I've covered for others when they aren't jamming out project after project. Also, not trapped in any way. I love my job and my employers. But sometimes stuck between a rock and a hard place...there are hard deadlines to meet, and high pressure to meet them, and working on developer tooling or just coming out and saying "I'm burned out, not going to work this week lol" won't fly. I'm interested to hear how you would handle a high-pressure situation where people are expecting you to pull through and you just. can't. deliver. for 7 straight days with nobody else there who can step in and do your job. Your answer is to "explore other paths." Do you have suggestions? (I am truly asking, not trying to back you into a corner). The easy answers of "find a lower pressure job!" are bullshit, and anyone who suggests that knows it. It's a morally superior brush-off to a difficult problem. What do you do/say to stay ethically "correct" while not jeopardizing your image/position and simultaneously gaining the understanding of your peers and those who are driving you to complete your tasks?

poikniok 9y ago

Right, as a boss I would love for my employees to work themselves to death to please me. God forbid they take a break once every couple of months. Because please be real, your suggestion is absurd. Somebody is burned out so they should work on developer tooling for a few days? When somebody is burned out doing more work is not going to help.

superplussed 9y ago
Again, I said there is nothing wrong with taking a break. To me working on developer tooling is taking a break. Maybe to you it isn't, so going to someone's desk for a chat would work for you, or going to play ping-pong in the lounge. My one and only point is that lying to your employer, to set yourself up so that you can somehow get through your low-points, means you are either in the wrong job or in the wrong profession. Be a professional and do your honest best, that's all.
- poikniok 9y ago
  That would be great if employers actually let you take a break. Instead what will happen is exactly what you would probably try, which is to get the person to do some other kind of work. I am happy for you that working on developer tooling is a break for you, but for some people this is never going to be the case. Some people might only be able to work 150/250 possible work days in a year sustainably. I think this advice is aimed at those individuals. At the end of the day you have to watch out for yourself. If you work yourself to suicide the company is never going feel sympathy for you. This is a business transaction, and part of business is crafting a message that resonates with counter-parties. Companies themselves do this all the time, and it is perfectly standard.
- jventura 9y ago
  > My one and only point is that lying to your employer, to set yourself up so that you can somehow get through your low-points, means you are either in the wrong job or in the wrong profession. Not everybody is still young in this field. Some of us have learned some "tactics" on how to handle with other humans. When I was younger and more inexperienced, I also thought that pure honesty would be rewarded with pure honesty from the other side. As long as you do things with the best of intentions, I guess some sensitivity to human conditions is a better long term approach.. I'm not really disagreeing with you, it's just that things are not so simple as you put them. If it's for you, great, but for the other 90%, it's not..
- orthecreedence 9y ago
  > going to someone's desk for a chat would work for you, or going to play ping-pong in the lounge. These are not suggestions that come from a person who knows what creative burnout is. It's becoming clear to me that you've never actually had a good, hard two week burnout with deadlines hanging over your head and bosses breathing down your neck. Good for you, I can tell you it sucks. > means you are either in the wrong job or in the wrong profession. Be a professional and do your honest best, that's all. I am a professional. I've been through acquisitions and I've been through corporate cubicle jobs. I've founded several companies...some have failed, some have sold. I've seen a lot and learned a lot along the way, and I know how to handle a lot of different situations beyond the simple, petty mantra of "honesty is good." There are times to be honest, and there are times to hold your cards close. The world can be a harsh place, and relying on nothing but honesty and hard work to get you through it is completely naive. Other than the work you promise your employers in your contract, you owe them, honesty included, absolutely nothing. This is how they view you: a set of terms. The minute you no longer make sense, they will push you out like a popped zit. Part of being a professional means projecting an image that makes you look indispensable. Are you the person who gets their shit done, or are you the person always whining about burnout? I'm fairly convinced at this point that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. That's fine, but maybe it's a good time to stop talking. Come back to me in 10 years and tell me how far your complete honesty with your employers has gotten you. You'll be able to. I sign my name to my statements.
julianusti 9y ago
I think switching the context is a good way to go. As I said in one of the above comments, I was working on tooling for the week, and I was feeling good about it (I was motivated).

sotojuan 9y ago

Especially because the poster has their full contact info under their profile.

icedchai 9y ago
With a post like that, hopefully it's fake!

orthecreedence 9y ago

I specifically said it's not malicious, it's in reaction to my level of creativity. It's how I operate. > Honestly, you don't sound professional. > if you feel comfortable being that shameless and unethical If you can work at 100% capacity at your job all the the time, great for you. If not, then you are either completely honest with your employers about it ("I didn't get anything done this week because I'm burned out") or you do the exact same things and are taking some sort of moral high ground in your post to feel superior. It's fine if you don't agree with me giving honest advice, but keep the moral judgements to yourself when they are most likely based in hypocrisy. EDIT: Also, just want to reiterate: this happens once in a while. I'm not doing this every day. Maybe you should re-read my post?

superplussed 9y ago
As I said in my comments, it's not about not being at 100% capacity all of the time. No-one is, but there are honest ways to communicate that. What's crazy to me is strategically lying to your employers IN ADVANCE, to set yourself up to not do any work. Especially given that you are posting it under your name.
- orthecreedence 9y ago
  Oh, perhaps I wasn't clear. When I say I allot a week for something (5 days), that task, working at a normal pace, would probably take 3-4 days. I'm not asking for a week when it takes a day. I'm asking for 1.5x how much I think it will take to pad. Normal practice. However sometimes, I am just not able to work on that project for a few days, and end up doing it all in one day/night after having a few days to thinking about it. For me, a good chunk of the job is thinking about it. The coding just kind of flows after that. The problem is that the thinking gets delayed =]
- switch007 9y ago
  Employers never IN ADVANCE plan to lie to employees, right? If you ask your boss a question, you ALWAYS get a truthful answer. Life isn't black and white. What if they're a 55 year old in tech? I could imagine someone being scared shitless of saying they're "burnt out"

mnm1 9y ago

Not any less professional than the boss expecting you to work unpaid overtime, so unless he's on an hourly (or time-based) contract, I don't see a single thing wrong here. Two sides of the same coin.

surement 9y ago

What exactly is the problem with someone padding their estimates knowing there is a risk of being stuck creatively? When it happens, the estimates stand, when it doesn't, work is done faster than expected. If the parent is unfortunate enough to have to report their progress constantly, what are they supposed to do instead of bullshitting? To me that seems like a problem with their organization. What's important in terms of professionalism beyond getting work done in the time estimated? I find it bewildering that anyone would consider a completely understandable, honest testimony shameful and unethical. I'm quite happy the parent shared this as a lot of developers feel quite a bit of pressure when slumps happen, thinking that it's abnormal when it's really quite common (and really for any type of creative work).

vkou 9y ago

So, when you are in a rut, and don't feel productive at work, you take the day off as unpaid leave? Or are you always equally productive, every day that you're at work?

vanderreeah 9y ago

What's bewildering to me is that you don't sound bewildered: you sound offended. You sound like something is at stake for you in his behaviour. Which is fine, it's ok to admit that. I am personally offended by your post, for example. Your standard of "professionalism" seems too high, and in any case, as someone who believes our society is based on the exploitation of workers, I think "professionalism" is a corrupt standard in any case, and to call his position "shameless and unethical" is the height of misplaced self-righteousness.

orthecreedence 9y ago
Thanks, you touched on an important point for me. Workers are expected to have 110% output all the time, and nowadays to even work on nights and weekends. Arguing for pure ethics on the worker side of things while ignoring the unrealistic expectations from the employer side seems almost delusional. That said, I love my employers, love my job, and I know they love me and the work I do. I'm also a non-trivial shareholder in my company. I am incentivized to do well. But everything is a transaction, including the information we share with each other, and learning to optimize this transaction so it benefits both my overall work process and the results I give my employers is a fine line that I've learned to walk over 12 years in the professional world. I know how to optimize my output without airing every little detail of my inner workings to the rest of the team.
mangodrunk 9y ago
I agree with this sentiment. Do you have any references regarding this exploitation, especially in regards to knowledge workers? Now that many of us aren't involved in the process of food and energy production, it seems that we have a good opportunity to live more and work less.
- orthecreedence 9y ago
  > Do you have any references regarding this exploitation, especially in regards to knowledge workers? Unfortunately, no, although I'm sure it would be easy enough to dig up some articles. My knowledge of the anecdotal, based on conversations with people. That said, I've had the same conversation with many people! People are working harder for less. I've even heard of people who get passed up for promotions if they use any of their vacation time. As an aside, I've said in other parts of this conversation tree but I'll say it again: I love my employers and my job, so these statements don't reflect on them. > it seems that we have a good opportunity to live more and work less. This one also hits home to me, especially with the upcoming automation boom. We need to think of wealth redistribution channels that take a higher-level view than just "let the market decide." How will anyone have jobs if there is nothing left to do? Does all the wealth just funnel to those who own the automated systems? UBI comes to mind. Many people really seem to hate it (labeling it as socialism even though it has nothing to do with workers' ownership of production) and write it off immediately as unfairly taxing the rich to give the poor a free ride. People really seem to defend the rich a lot in America, even though 100 years of a commoner's salary is pocket change to the people who would be hit hardest by a UBI. The term "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" couldn't be more true. Or maybe there's another wealth distribution mechanism that could solve the problem too, but I'm not aware of any. EDIT: just realized your response was to the parent comment, not me. Oh well, the points still stand =]

switch007 9y ago

"half a day" I wonder if you could share your burn out experience?

mangodrunk 9y ago

Focus on results, not how much or how hard someone works. Also, don't you think maybe the system is wrong to expect a creative task to be constantly worked on? Taking half a day is a joke. Working on developer tooling sounds like a joke too. Your mentality doesn't seem like a good fit for a creative task.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

firebones 9y ago

The responses attacking your point here seem to be operating under the assumption that the manager, and the OP's peers, don't recognize when someone is obfuscating their effort and/or results. People notice. "Bullshitting" is defined as "be misleading or deceptive" and the cost of this is borne not only by "management" (who presumably is in this constant mode of misleading or deceiving you), but by your peers who are dependent on you, or who are waiting for you to deliver. As someone who gets burned out from time to time, I totally get it. It's tempting. I don't know the best general solution, especially if you're in an environment of distrust (rather than what superplussed assumes). But maybe explore some other paths? If you're in a job where in order to function, you have to deceive your management AND your peers, maybe you'd be happier in a different situation or company or role. To the OP: are you trapped in your situation? (It may very well be that you are, for instance, due to market conditions or visa situation, which sheds some light on why you're opting for deception.)

orthecreedence 9y ago
Perhaps people notice, perhaps not. But if they do notice, they most likely understand the pressure and the situation and relate to it. I know I've covered for others when they aren't jamming out project after project. Also, not trapped in any way. I love my job and my employers. But sometimes stuck between a rock and a hard place...there are hard deadlines to meet, and high pressure to meet them, and working on developer tooling or just coming out and saying "I'm burned out, not going to work this week lol" won't fly. I'm interested to hear how you would handle a high-pressure situation where people are expecting you to pull through and you just. can't. deliver. for 7 straight days with nobody else there who can step in and do your job. Your answer is to "explore other paths." Do you have suggestions? (I am truly asking, not trying to back you into a corner). The easy answers of "find a lower pressure job!" are bullshit, and anyone who suggests that knows it. It's a morally superior brush-off to a difficult problem. What do you do/say to stay ethically "correct" while not jeopardizing your image/position and simultaneously gaining the understanding of your peers and those who are driving you to complete your tasks?