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People asking about what problem this solves haven't been to South Africa or Zimbabwe which in some ways are ahead of the West in creating cashless societies.

by s_dev 9y ago

People asking about what problem this solves haven't been to South Africa or Zimbabwe which in some ways are ahead of the West in creating cashless societies. The biggest bank is a phone operator and people can send each other money over the phone and from what I understand this is very common. Also interestingly most phones aren't smart phones. It's mostly analog. Banks have a serious incentive to create and encourage cashless societies -- because they're limited by the liquidity ratio. People there are more skeptical of hard cash there while here it's nearly on par with Gold in terms of confidence. I don't think I've to explain offering an API allows third party engagement and endorsement and an opportunity for others to grow their service. Yes there are security concerns but these can be all secured from backend.

jsudhams 9y ago
One of the issue with cashless is that banks/financial service provided making money of of the money i.e. $100 making more than $100 with out adding any real value in fees (100 time circulation). I know time is money in most western countries but my place we do one crop a year and sit idle for 9 months. So time is not a money and we would rather give cash to a person get that much worth of a product. E.g. My sons school charges 2% extra if i use credit card, Rs 20 if i use netbank and does not accept cash. So on a Saturday i am happy pay in cash when i have nothing else to do. Unless government makes the transfer without fee (now they can print less money and that cost can be used for this infra of transfer), why is cashless better in the scenario where that saved time is not used for anything value generating? Genuinely looking for answers to this that makes sense rather than saying time is money.
- hasbroslasher 9y ago
  The example of your son's school is fine, but imagine that your son lives in another country. Cash has other problems beside being slow. It's insecure - a person could steal your $20 bill from your mailbox or his, or from the Post Office. It's untraceable - if your son's school says "We never got your payment" but your son swears he gave them the cash, you're stuck in a situation where either your son or the school is ripping you off (I'm sure your son would never do that). And last, it takes both time and money to convert cash to another currency. Taking the cash to somewhere where a person can convert it to the preferred currency is bad enough, and then it costs you money on top of it.
  - graedus 9y ago
    > It's untraceable Feature of cash, not a bug. It's not the best choice for every situation, but neither is digital, which is why it's important that people have both options available.
    - ziikutv 9y ago
      Its virtually untraceable. There are ways to find out if the note was new and released by the bank only to that person etc. Which is why the tinfoil me gets change before doing tinfoil purchases xD
    - trowawee 9y ago
      Yeah, the ability to make payments outside of the scope of the panopticon is one of the better arguments in favor of cash and against a completely cashless society.
      - hasbroslasher 9y ago
        I'd like to think that in time someone will solve this too by some kind of clever obfuscation, but it's not going to be BoA doing it. It's going to be someone who wants to fuck with their status as a state-sponsored usurer. Or at least I hope. Also consider Bitcoin as a "cashless society" alternative to the financial panopticon - no one's looking over your shoulder there and it's definitely not "cash".
        trowawee 9y ago
        I'm skeptical about Bitcoin as a potential alternative because I suspect that, if you combine the surveillance abilities of the state and the money of the state with the time and effort of the very many clever people who work for the state, Bitcoin will become substantially less anonymous.
        AnsemWise 9y ago
        Usually traceable unless you use a tumbler to "clean" your coins, even then it's still traceable I think
- sova 9y ago
  Transfer convenience justice for all!
jamesrcole 9y ago
Do you know of the sorts of benefits it has brought in those places?
- s_dev 9y ago
  Absolutely -- the police can be very corrupt in Zimbabwe so you don't want hard cash hanging around or it will be taken. The actually official Zimbabwe currency can't really be taken seriously because of insane inflation rates. US Dollars vary greatly in price. Small transaction fees are nothing to operate cashlessly for some of these people compare to the risk of trying to store cash. Even India recently banned high denomination notes because they were so associated with drugs and illegal behaviour.
  - tkmunzwa 9y ago
    Actual Zimbabwean here: you are so wrong I'll have to ask: have you ever been to Zimbabwe? > Absolutely -- the police can be very corrupt in Zimbabwe so you don't want hard cash hanging around or it will be taken. Yes, the police are corrupt but they won't rob you[1], they might try and coerce a bribe. > The actually official Zimbabwe currency can't really be taken seriously because of insane inflation rates. This is wrong. It has been wrong for close to a decade because Zimbabwe "demonetized" its currency (Zimbabwean dollar) in 2008 after an infamous bout of hyperinflation - you might have seen/heard of the 100 Trillion dollar note. 1. Unless you have been incapacitated by a traffic accident. A worrying trend has emerged in recent years where passers-by or attending police go through the car and belongings of dead/dying accident victims. See http://www.chronicle.co.zw/chiriseri-corpse-robber-cop-dies-near-crash-site/ http://www.chronicle.co.zw/chiriseri-corpse-robber-cop-dies-...
    - zimzam 9y ago
      Is there really much practical difference between a police officer demanding a bribe and being robbed? (I've never been to Zimbabwe: if there is a difference between cops "coercing" a bribe and what I'm assuming you mean I'd appreciate the clarification!)
nroets 9y ago
Let me counter with these facts about banking in South Africa: 1. Fees at most banks are high. (A basic account with no transactions typically have fees of several dollar per month). 2. If people are moving away from physical cash, its because of security concerns (theft and robbery), not liquidity. 3. Most transactions are done by credit card, debit order or Electronic Fund Transfer (EFT). EFTs are done between numbered banks account. Mobile to mobile phone transfers are still very rare. 4. People are stubornly loyal to their banks. If root fails, it will be cause of this.
- Vivtek 9y ago
  Just to clarify #2 - I read that as meaning that liquidity is a reason for banks to like the move away from physical cash. Why customers like it is clearly security, though, you're right.
- jay-saint 9y ago
  Regarding # 4. This product is by one the current largest banks in South Africa. Standard Bank of South Africa is big in S.A and operates in many other African countries.
- nashequilibrium 9y ago
  Have you opened a bank account ins South Africa? If so, what economic bracket do you belong to?
nxcho 9y ago
I would say that a lot of countries in EU are ahead of US in eliminating cash as well (wether this is good or bad can be discussed). The new EU Payment Service Directive 2 (PSD2) will essentially force EU banks to open apis for account information and payments to third parties.
fiatjaf 9y ago
Do you think it is good (or an "advancement") to eliminate cash?
run4yourlives2 9y ago
"ahead of the West" Ahem, ahead of the US, really. Canada and the EU can be cashless already, with chip cards and direct bank withdrawal at the POS a reality for 99.99% of merchants.
- EGreg 9y ago
  China is cashless. Stores don't accept your cash much. And you have to show a government id to buy anything. And they track you. But it gets worse than that. If the government wants to punish you, they can just cut you off. Can't buy food, can't pay rent. Oh you think your friends can help you? China has that covered too, with its shiny new credit system. Being associated with - let alone helping - people cut off from buying food may result in a drastic lowering of score and ability to do business yourself. On the bright side, used wisely such coersion may he better than outright violence at stopping criminals and terrorists.
  - run4yourlives2 9y ago
    Thankfully, there is a good amount of space between money under mattresses and a government controlled economy. Your comment is a giant straw man. Canadian and EU systems are private ones and the government has little or no power to directly intervene, short of law enforcement. The idea that eliminating paper is some sort of boogeyman from Revelations is about as silly as the idea that holding on to your Glock allows you defend your rights against a corrupt government. Neither actually offer any type of protection against these particular issues. Unless you are wandering around with $20K in cash everyday, your bank account is still subject to the very things you seem to be afraid of. The only thing that changes in a mostly cashless society is your access to your bank account. If the government is going to freeze your account, it matters little if you have a chip card or need to go to the teller. Thankfully, we in the west have moved most of the management of this to the private sector, and require things like warrants before any real action is done. That can and is an issue at times, but has little effect on the day to day implementation of one method over another.
    - tomcam 9y ago
elorm 9y ago
I believe you're referring to Kenya and Ghana instead. It's called mobile money and the Telcos are actually taking a huge bite out of the banking market share
dokem 9y ago
Yes, this programmable credit card for developers is exactly what the low-tech, third-world is looking for.
kyberias 9y ago
Analog? No. Even though they might not be smart phones, they must still be digital.

by s_dev 9y ago

jsudhams 9y ago

One of the issue with cashless is that banks/financial service provided making money of of the money i.e. $100 making more than $100 with out adding any real value in fees (100 time circulation). I know time is money in most western countries but my place we do one crop a year and sit idle for 9 months. So time is not a money and we would rather give cash to a person get that much worth of a product. E.g. My sons school charges 2% extra if i use credit card, Rs 20 if i use netbank and does not accept cash. So on a Saturday i am happy pay in cash when i have nothing else to do. Unless government makes the transfer without fee (now they can print less money and that cost can be used for this infra of transfer), why is cashless better in the scenario where that saved time is not used for anything value generating? Genuinely looking for answers to this that makes sense rather than saying time is money.

hasbroslasher 9y ago
The example of your son's school is fine, but imagine that your son lives in another country. Cash has other problems beside being slow. It's insecure - a person could steal your $20 bill from your mailbox or his, or from the Post Office. It's untraceable - if your son's school says "We never got your payment" but your son swears he gave them the cash, you're stuck in a situation where either your son or the school is ripping you off (I'm sure your son would never do that). And last, it takes both time and money to convert cash to another currency. Taking the cash to somewhere where a person can convert it to the preferred currency is bad enough, and then it costs you money on top of it.
- graedus 9y ago
  > It's untraceable Feature of cash, not a bug. It's not the best choice for every situation, but neither is digital, which is why it's important that people have both options available.
  - ziikutv 9y ago
    Its virtually untraceable. There are ways to find out if the note was new and released by the bank only to that person etc. Which is why the tinfoil me gets change before doing tinfoil purchases xD
  - trowawee 9y ago
    Yeah, the ability to make payments outside of the scope of the panopticon is one of the better arguments in favor of cash and against a completely cashless society.
    - hasbroslasher 9y ago
      I'd like to think that in time someone will solve this too by some kind of clever obfuscation, but it's not going to be BoA doing it. It's going to be someone who wants to fuck with their status as a state-sponsored usurer. Or at least I hope. Also consider Bitcoin as a "cashless society" alternative to the financial panopticon - no one's looking over your shoulder there and it's definitely not "cash".
      - trowawee 9y ago
        I'm skeptical about Bitcoin as a potential alternative because I suspect that, if you combine the surveillance abilities of the state and the money of the state with the time and effort of the very many clever people who work for the state, Bitcoin will become substantially less anonymous.
        AnsemWise 9y ago
        Usually traceable unless you use a tumbler to "clean" your coins, even then it's still traceable I think
sova 9y ago
Transfer convenience justice for all!

jamesrcole 9y ago

Do you know of the sorts of benefits it has brought in those places?

s_dev 9y ago
Absolutely -- the police can be very corrupt in Zimbabwe so you don't want hard cash hanging around or it will be taken. The actually official Zimbabwe currency can't really be taken seriously because of insane inflation rates. US Dollars vary greatly in price. Small transaction fees are nothing to operate cashlessly for some of these people compare to the risk of trying to store cash. Even India recently banned high denomination notes because they were so associated with drugs and illegal behaviour.
- tkmunzwa 9y ago
  Actual Zimbabwean here: you are so wrong I'll have to ask: have you ever been to Zimbabwe? > Absolutely -- the police can be very corrupt in Zimbabwe so you don't want hard cash hanging around or it will be taken. Yes, the police are corrupt but they won't rob you[1], they might try and coerce a bribe. > The actually official Zimbabwe currency can't really be taken seriously because of insane inflation rates. This is wrong. It has been wrong for close to a decade because Zimbabwe "demonetized" its currency (Zimbabwean dollar) in 2008 after an infamous bout of hyperinflation - you might have seen/heard of the 100 Trillion dollar note. 1. Unless you have been incapacitated by a traffic accident. A worrying trend has emerged in recent years where passers-by or attending police go through the car and belongings of dead/dying accident victims. See http://www.chronicle.co.zw/chiriseri-corpse-robber-cop-dies-near-crash-site/ http://www.chronicle.co.zw/chiriseri-corpse-robber-cop-dies-...
  - zimzam 9y ago
    Is there really much practical difference between a police officer demanding a bribe and being robbed? (I've never been to Zimbabwe: if there is a difference between cops "coercing" a bribe and what I'm assuming you mean I'd appreciate the clarification!)

nroets 9y ago

Let me counter with these facts about banking in South Africa: 1. Fees at most banks are high. (A basic account with no transactions typically have fees of several dollar per month). 2. If people are moving away from physical cash, its because of security concerns (theft and robbery), not liquidity. 3. Most transactions are done by credit card, debit order or Electronic Fund Transfer (EFT). EFTs are done between numbered banks account. Mobile to mobile phone transfers are still very rare. 4. People are stubornly loyal to their banks. If root fails, it will be cause of this.

Vivtek 9y ago
Just to clarify #2 - I read that as meaning that liquidity is a reason for banks to like the move away from physical cash. Why customers like it is clearly security, though, you're right.
jay-saint 9y ago
Regarding # 4. This product is by one the current largest banks in South Africa. Standard Bank of South Africa is big in S.A and operates in many other African countries.
nashequilibrium 9y ago
Have you opened a bank account ins South Africa? If so, what economic bracket do you belong to?

nxcho 9y ago

I would say that a lot of countries in EU are ahead of US in eliminating cash as well (wether this is good or bad can be discussed). The new EU Payment Service Directive 2 (PSD2) will essentially force EU banks to open apis for account information and payments to third parties.

fiatjaf 9y ago

Do you think it is good (or an "advancement") to eliminate cash?

run4yourlives2 9y ago

"ahead of the West" Ahem, ahead of the US, really. Canada and the EU can be cashless already, with chip cards and direct bank withdrawal at the POS a reality for 99.99% of merchants.

EGreg 9y ago
China is cashless. Stores don't accept your cash much. And you have to show a government id to buy anything. And they track you. But it gets worse than that. If the government wants to punish you, they can just cut you off. Can't buy food, can't pay rent. Oh you think your friends can help you? China has that covered too, with its shiny new credit system. Being associated with - let alone helping - people cut off from buying food may result in a drastic lowering of score and ability to do business yourself. On the bright side, used wisely such coersion may he better than outright violence at stopping criminals and terrorists.
- run4yourlives2 9y ago
  Thankfully, there is a good amount of space between money under mattresses and a government controlled economy. Your comment is a giant straw man. Canadian and EU systems are private ones and the government has little or no power to directly intervene, short of law enforcement. The idea that eliminating paper is some sort of boogeyman from Revelations is about as silly as the idea that holding on to your Glock allows you defend your rights against a corrupt government. Neither actually offer any type of protection against these particular issues. Unless you are wandering around with $20K in cash everyday, your bank account is still subject to the very things you seem to be afraid of. The only thing that changes in a mostly cashless society is your access to your bank account. If the government is going to freeze your account, it matters little if you have a chip card or need to go to the teller. Thankfully, we in the west have moved most of the management of this to the private sector, and require things like warrants before any real action is done. That can and is an issue at times, but has little effect on the day to day implementation of one method over another.
  - tomcam 9y ago

elorm 9y ago

I believe you're referring to Kenya and Ghana instead. It's called mobile money and the Telcos are actually taking a huge bite out of the banking market share

dokem 9y ago

Yes, this programmable credit card for developers is exactly what the low-tech, third-world is looking for.

kyberias 9y ago

Analog? No. Even though they might not be smart phones, they must still be digital.