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Indeed, EVs don't solve congestion. But they solve a lot of problems associated with congestion, as in toxic exhausts and noise. Self-driving electrical vehicle

by _ph_ 10y ago

Indeed, EVs don't solve congestion. But they solve a lot of problems associated with congestion, as in toxic exhausts and noise. Self-driving electrical vehicles could greatly reduce congestion, as the throughput of roads could be improved (less distance between cars, optimal driving without human errors). For sure we should strongly look into alternative approaches which would reduce or eliminate congestion, but until they are deployed, people are going to be dependent on cars - we should make those cars as environmental friendly as possible.

acqq 10y ago
Are the cars made to be the same size as the gasoline cars more environmental friendly at all, once we consider all the environmental effects of producing them, providing the energy, and finally handling the waste at the end? Has anybody performed a whole honest evaluation?
- lloeki 10y ago
  > producing them, providing the energy, and finally handling the waste at the end All of those produce environmental effects that for EVs are now: - local instead of spread out - largely decoupled from the vehicle This is a huge architectural change because we're factoring environmental effects out of the vehicle, which allows for accelerated improvements without changing the car itself as well as economies of scale resulting in better environmental efficiency. Switch from coal to nuke and all currently running EVs stop emitting a lot of CO2 at once. Switch to wind+solar and they're suddenly all nuke-waste-free too. The same car could change to more recyclable battery tech (swappable batteries, battery rental...) over the course of its life and become progressively cleaner. So even if it provides an increase right now (which it doesn't, plus we're just living on a huge carbon credit card anyway) it certainly won't on the medium to long term.
  - icc97 10y ago
    Electric vehicles has to be the best example of why you should keep your objects loosely coupled :)
- icc97 10y ago
  Yes - Elon Musk has quoted quite a few times that even if all electricity is generated via Coal then a Tesla still produces less CO2 than a Prius. Plus things are improving all the time with electric. That's one of the wonderful things - decoupling of energy usage from generation. You can switch the coal to solar, you can't just switch the diesel for something else that doesn't pollute. Plus with the Gigafactory they can start doing very efficient battery recycling because they built the batteries (there was a quote somewhere in the speeches given at the Gigafactory opening) Obviously Tesla is biased, this Green Car Report article [0] (probably still biased, but seems pretty acurate) reckons on 292 g/mi of CO2 for a Tesla: > We've arrived at a number for the real-world effective CO2 emissions of a Model S of 292 g/mi. Admittedly, that's lot higher than Tesla claims on its website. > But worse than a Grand Cherokee? Hardly. > The V-6 Grand Cherokee's official EPA CO2 number is 479 g/mi when fitted with the smallest engine offered, a 3.6-liter V-6. The more powerful V-8 model logs in at a whopping 592 g/mi. You then have a separate wired article raising most of the questions you're asking [1] As far as I see it though, all of the aspects of electric cars can be improved from mining of the minerals to recycling - but you can't recycle oil and there's very few improvements that you can make. [0]: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084440_does-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car-pollute-more-than-an-suv http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084440_does-the-tesla-m... [1]: https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/ https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not...
  - acqq 10y ago
    How are the environmental effects ofthe production of the huge batteries, their disposal or recycling evaluated. I've seen only some very dishonest ones like "once the batteries are not usable in cars we'll sell them" where the worth of the used batteries was immensely overblown. That wasn't honest at all. I also can't take Musk's claims for even being close to honest. The environmental effects of producing such small devices as cellphones is known to be significant. With the cars it's completely new orders of magnitude, which can result in non-linear responses, even if we know the good estimates for the smaller batteries. Do we?
    - bullen 10y ago
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  If you don't believe this to be true, just state it honestly and people can correct your claims. Don't "just ask questions" and then when someone wastes their time responding as if you were genuine, claim that you already know that people have done research but you don't believe it.
- ebbv 10y ago
  Yes tremendously. Even if we just burn gasoline at power plants they are still much more efficient. When you start to add in renewables as a source of power for EVs the environmental impact is tremendous. Buy an EV for your next car if you can.
  - nojvek 10y ago
    Definitely thinking of an EV but they are for the rich folks atm. I'll wait for a sub 30k self driving Tesla.
    - hwillis 10y ago
      The average price for a new car is 34k nowadays. A used Model S is at least 40k[1]. Tesla has a pre-owned up for 50k. The cheapest new Model S, with all rebates + estimated gas savings, is 56k. If Tesla really pulls off the Model 3, it's a game changer. It'll start the clock ticking until everyone can afford a (used) electric car. [1]: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Tesla-Model-S-d2039#listing=172558750 https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Tesla-Model-S-d2039#lis... [2] 85kWh, no less: https://www.tesla.com/preowned/5YJSA1DN1DFP16592 https://www.tesla.com/preowned/5YJSA1DN1DFP16592
      - smaddox 10y ago
        Averages can be misleading in highly skewed distributions...
    - WorldMaker 10y ago
      The 2017 Bolt is competitively priced: $37k MSRP. Still qualifies for ~$7k tax refund. Could potentially negotiate the price down a tad at a local dealership.
nickez 10y ago
> Self-driving electrical vehicles could greatly reduce congestion They could. But they could also greatly increase congestion because travelling with car will be a lot more convenient. Especially if the car can drop you of at your location and find a parking spot itself. I think the only way self-driving cars will reduce congestion is if the cars are shared both per ride and over the day.
- ben_w 10y ago
  Given the phrase "rush hour" exists in the English language, I think they can only reduce congestion by sharing over the whole day if workplaces are successfully encouraged to shift their starting hours away from the usual 9-5 (or 9-5:30 as it seems to be). This will, of course, also work for human-driven cars.
  - oblio 10y ago
    Almost all the incentives are for the status quo. I don't see anything which will radically change this.
  - hwillis 10y ago
    >workplaces are successfully encouraged to shift their starting hours away from the usual 9-5 (or 9-5:30 as it seems to be). This could only possibly work for internationally-focused firms, firms that operate around-the-clock, or firms that do not need contact with other firms and contact customers outside business hours. That is a very small subset. Business hours are excellent for everyone involved in terms of work-life balance and coordinating business. They are not a good thing to sacrifice and it would only be a stopgap measure anyway. If you need to move a ton of people all at once, you need public transportation. BUILD MORE TRAINS /swiss
    - ben_w 10y ago
      Work life balance is an interesting point I had not considered. Mainly I was trying to make the point that self-driving cars won't make much difference to this specific problem, but I don't seem to have communicated that very well given the replies.
awjr 10y ago
Pollution in the UK is measured using NOx, PPM10, and PPM2.5 Pollution from brake and tyre particles is something that will not be tackled. I do think the key is lack of choice. People feel, given the design of our roads, that they have no choice but to get into a steel box and drive around.
- DamonHD 10y ago
  Better (automated) driving could actually reduce wear too, especially with some regenerative braking in the mix.
- marssaxman 10y ago
  Oh, but we very much do have a choice - you can also get into an aluminum box and drive around.
mkj 10y ago
Do they actually help noise of busy roads much? The impression I got was that the constant white noise living near a busy road was mainly tyre and air, not engines. Buses would get a lot quieter though.
- URSpider94 10y ago
  They probably wouldn't reduce the white noise from highways much, but they'd certainly have an impact on the break-through noise from rapid acceleration, loud exhaust, etc.
- r00fus 10y ago
  Yes. My house has a minimal setback. Noisiest vehicles are motorcycles, heavier trucks, and modded cars. Normal cars are fairly silent, and HEV/EVs are almost completely silent. The proposed? Legislation to have noise emitters on EVs might change this.
Neliquat 10y ago
Most toxic emissions form todays cars are not from the tailpipe. Most of it is brake pad dust. Electric cars dont help that.
- corey_moncure 10y ago
  You may be underestimating the effect of regenerative braking. My Leaf has about a 60 kw output, of which 30 kw maximum can be regenerated by the braking system. That's 30 kw that doesn't have to be dissipated on the friction brakes. On some EVs, you can slow and even stop entirely using the electric brake, circumventing the brake pads entirely.
- joshyeager 10y ago
  I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is then electric cars will definitely reduce the problem. They use regenerative braking for a large percentage of their braking power, which means that the brake pads are used much less.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- _ph_ 10y ago
  NOx completely comes from combustion, fine particles both from combustion and brake pad dust and tires. The fine particle load is greatly reduced by going electric, one has also to take into respect, that the fine particles from combustion are much smaller and consequently more dangerous than brake and tire dust.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

by _ph_ 10y ago

acqq 10y ago

Are the cars made to be the same size as the gasoline cars more environmental friendly at all, once we consider all the environmental effects of producing them, providing the energy, and finally handling the waste at the end? Has anybody performed a whole honest evaluation?

lloeki 10y ago
> producing them, providing the energy, and finally handling the waste at the end All of those produce environmental effects that for EVs are now: - local instead of spread out - largely decoupled from the vehicle This is a huge architectural change because we're factoring environmental effects out of the vehicle, which allows for accelerated improvements without changing the car itself as well as economies of scale resulting in better environmental efficiency. Switch from coal to nuke and all currently running EVs stop emitting a lot of CO2 at once. Switch to wind+solar and they're suddenly all nuke-waste-free too. The same car could change to more recyclable battery tech (swappable batteries, battery rental...) over the course of its life and become progressively cleaner. So even if it provides an increase right now (which it doesn't, plus we're just living on a huge carbon credit card anyway) it certainly won't on the medium to long term.
- icc97 10y ago
  Electric vehicles has to be the best example of why you should keep your objects loosely coupled :)
icc97 10y ago
Yes - Elon Musk has quoted quite a few times that even if all electricity is generated via Coal then a Tesla still produces less CO2 than a Prius. Plus things are improving all the time with electric. That's one of the wonderful things - decoupling of energy usage from generation. You can switch the coal to solar, you can't just switch the diesel for something else that doesn't pollute. Plus with the Gigafactory they can start doing very efficient battery recycling because they built the batteries (there was a quote somewhere in the speeches given at the Gigafactory opening) Obviously Tesla is biased, this Green Car Report article [0] (probably still biased, but seems pretty acurate) reckons on 292 g/mi of CO2 for a Tesla: > We've arrived at a number for the real-world effective CO2 emissions of a Model S of 292 g/mi. Admittedly, that's lot higher than Tesla claims on its website. > But worse than a Grand Cherokee? Hardly. > The V-6 Grand Cherokee's official EPA CO2 number is 479 g/mi when fitted with the smallest engine offered, a 3.6-liter V-6. The more powerful V-8 model logs in at a whopping 592 g/mi. You then have a separate wired article raising most of the questions you're asking [1] As far as I see it though, all of the aspects of electric cars can be improved from mining of the minerals to recycling - but you can't recycle oil and there's very few improvements that you can make. [0]: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084440_does-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car-pollute-more-than-an-suv http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1084440_does-the-tesla-m... [1]: https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/ https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not...
- acqq 10y ago
  How are the environmental effects ofthe production of the huge batteries, their disposal or recycling evaluated. I've seen only some very dishonest ones like "once the batteries are not usable in cars we'll sell them" where the worth of the used batteries was immensely overblown. That wasn't honest at all. I also can't take Musk's claims for even being close to honest. The environmental effects of producing such small devices as cellphones is known to be significant. With the cars it's completely new orders of magnitude, which can result in non-linear responses, even if we know the good estimates for the smaller batteries. Do we?
  - bullen 10y ago
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
If you don't believe this to be true, just state it honestly and people can correct your claims. Don't "just ask questions" and then when someone wastes their time responding as if you were genuine, claim that you already know that people have done research but you don't believe it.
ebbv 10y ago
Yes tremendously. Even if we just burn gasoline at power plants they are still much more efficient. When you start to add in renewables as a source of power for EVs the environmental impact is tremendous. Buy an EV for your next car if you can.
- nojvek 10y ago
  Definitely thinking of an EV but they are for the rich folks atm. I'll wait for a sub 30k self driving Tesla.
  - hwillis 10y ago
    The average price for a new car is 34k nowadays. A used Model S is at least 40k[1]. Tesla has a pre-owned up for 50k. The cheapest new Model S, with all rebates + estimated gas savings, is 56k. If Tesla really pulls off the Model 3, it's a game changer. It'll start the clock ticking until everyone can afford a (used) electric car. [1]: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Tesla-Model-S-d2039#listing=172558750 https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Tesla-Model-S-d2039#lis... [2] 85kWh, no less: https://www.tesla.com/preowned/5YJSA1DN1DFP16592 https://www.tesla.com/preowned/5YJSA1DN1DFP16592
    - smaddox 10y ago
      Averages can be misleading in highly skewed distributions...
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    The 2017 Bolt is competitively priced: $37k MSRP. Still qualifies for ~$7k tax refund. Could potentially negotiate the price down a tad at a local dealership.

nickez 10y ago

> Self-driving electrical vehicles could greatly reduce congestion They could. But they could also greatly increase congestion because travelling with car will be a lot more convenient. Especially if the car can drop you of at your location and find a parking spot itself. I think the only way self-driving cars will reduce congestion is if the cars are shared both per ride and over the day.

ben_w 10y ago
Given the phrase "rush hour" exists in the English language, I think they can only reduce congestion by sharing over the whole day if workplaces are successfully encouraged to shift their starting hours away from the usual 9-5 (or 9-5:30 as it seems to be). This will, of course, also work for human-driven cars.
- oblio 10y ago
  Almost all the incentives are for the status quo. I don't see anything which will radically change this.
- hwillis 10y ago
  >workplaces are successfully encouraged to shift their starting hours away from the usual 9-5 (or 9-5:30 as it seems to be). This could only possibly work for internationally-focused firms, firms that operate around-the-clock, or firms that do not need contact with other firms and contact customers outside business hours. That is a very small subset. Business hours are excellent for everyone involved in terms of work-life balance and coordinating business. They are not a good thing to sacrifice and it would only be a stopgap measure anyway. If you need to move a ton of people all at once, you need public transportation. BUILD MORE TRAINS /swiss
  - ben_w 10y ago
    Work life balance is an interesting point I had not considered. Mainly I was trying to make the point that self-driving cars won't make much difference to this specific problem, but I don't seem to have communicated that very well given the replies.

awjr 10y ago

Pollution in the UK is measured using NOx, PPM10, and PPM2.5 Pollution from brake and tyre particles is something that will not be tackled. I do think the key is lack of choice. People feel, given the design of our roads, that they have no choice but to get into a steel box and drive around.

DamonHD 10y ago
Better (automated) driving could actually reduce wear too, especially with some regenerative braking in the mix.
marssaxman 10y ago
Oh, but we very much do have a choice - you can also get into an aluminum box and drive around.

mkj 10y ago

Do they actually help noise of busy roads much? The impression I got was that the constant white noise living near a busy road was mainly tyre and air, not engines. Buses would get a lot quieter though.

URSpider94 10y ago
They probably wouldn't reduce the white noise from highways much, but they'd certainly have an impact on the break-through noise from rapid acceleration, loud exhaust, etc.
r00fus 10y ago
Yes. My house has a minimal setback. Noisiest vehicles are motorcycles, heavier trucks, and modded cars. Normal cars are fairly silent, and HEV/EVs are almost completely silent. The proposed? Legislation to have noise emitters on EVs might change this.

Neliquat 10y ago

Most toxic emissions form todays cars are not from the tailpipe. Most of it is brake pad dust. Electric cars dont help that.

corey_moncure 10y ago
You may be underestimating the effect of regenerative braking. My Leaf has about a 60 kw output, of which 30 kw maximum can be regenerated by the braking system. That's 30 kw that doesn't have to be dissipated on the friction brakes. On some EVs, you can slow and even stop entirely using the electric brake, circumventing the brake pads entirely.
joshyeager 10y ago
I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is then electric cars will definitely reduce the problem. They use regenerative braking for a large percentage of their braking power, which means that the brake pads are used much less.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
_ph_ 10y ago
NOx completely comes from combustion, fine particles both from combustion and brake pad dust and tires. The fine particle load is greatly reduced by going electric, one has also to take into respect, that the fine particles from combustion are much smaller and consequently more dangerous than brake and tire dust.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]