6 ms·

This is tougher than it seems on the surface. A few years ago, I was involved in planning and running a maker "fest". We invited makers, and artists to the fe

by blhack 9y ago

This is tougher than it seems on the surface. A few years ago, I was involved in planning and running a maker "fest". We invited makers, and artists to the festival to show off their projects, and some of them wanted to sell things. A not-insignificant number of participants who wanted to sell things were just reselling things you could buy at Michaels, or buy online (in bulk) for cheap. Sometimes with just a little modification, or maybe a creative recombination, or repackaging. The problem is that you basically have to examine every single item, and then personally decide if it qualifies as art or not. That's a lot harder than it sounds, and can quickly devolve into a judgemental mess that nobody wants to participate in (we wanted to encourage makers, not subject them to some "must be at least this cool" test, which is scary for people). Imagine the PR fallout for etsy the first time they tell somebody that their handmade widgets look like mass produced junk. I think they're in a really tough spot. When they weighed the options, my guess is that they realized that it would be best to let the consumers just decide what they want to buy.

TulliusCicero 9y ago
> I think they're in a really tough spot. When they weighed the options, my guess is that they realized that it would be best to let the consumers just decide what they want to buy. ...but then the problem is, what makes them better or different from any other storefront? If there's a ton of mass-produced product on Etsy, why would I want to shop there rather than on Amazon?
- blhack 9y ago
  >what makes them better or different from any other storefront? Brand, or...genre? I'm having a difficult time finding the word for it, but there is definitely a type of thing I go to etsy to look for. For instance, this: https://www.etsy.com/listing/159631469/aztec-death-whistle-terrifying-roaring?ref=pr_shop https://www.etsy.com/listing/159631469/aztec-death-whistle-t... (which is such a cool piece with such a cool story!). I have no idea where else to go to even look for something like that. When I wanted one, etsy is the first thing that came to mind. So I think that the mass produced stuff hurts browsing, but if you know what you are looking for, it's still easy to cut throgh the noise.
  - beaconstudios 9y ago
    I tend to think of Etsy as being the place to go for cultural, rather than mass-produced consumerist, goods.
    - leadingthenet 9y ago
      The problem is that most products only pretend not be mass-produced, when in reality, they are.
      - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        Perhaps the pretending is what people are paying/looking for. I certainly see a lot of that kind of thing when surveying supermarket shelves.
        rhizome 9y ago
        Anthropologie makes a ton of cash from it.
        pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        Do you really think so, that people don't want, say, a unique piece of jewellery but just to pretend - through what appears to be a fraud on behalf of the seller - that some over-priced mass-produced jewellery is unique. I couldn't disagree more. In part if I buy something on Etsy I'm considering that most of the money I spend will get re-spent in that person's local community. In part I'm trying to encourage them in their craftmanship/art.
        moron4hire 9y ago
        I mean, there has to be some level of overlooking the obvious going on. There's no way a person could sustain themselves on the prices that these items are going for, if they were actually hand-made.
        9y ago
- Opalhart 9y ago
  Maybe if there was a system where consumers could identify the wares as manufactured themselves. Like a "legitimacy" rating system
  - Meai 9y ago
    They should really just add a rating system, I dont know anything about etsy but if customers say that they found it on alibaba with a given link then the seller would probably lose all future sales. Sounds like a very easy problem to solve...
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      But then Etsy lose all those sales, which presumably is why they don't do that. Are they more committed to their morals or their profit?
      - fireflash38 9y ago
        That would be a very short-term perspective of them to take. If it becomes common knowledge that it's mostly repackaged chinese goods, then the storefront as a whole would collapse. In this case, preserving their morals I believe is very important to their business as a whole.
        pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        They probably only need to maintain the perception to keep most of the profits though, so look like your trying but don't do all you can.
        penguat 9y ago
        They need to maintain their customers' perception, which is not so much about trying as actually having an effect...
    - ghostly_s 9y ago
- afarrell 9y ago
  They are cheaper for sone things: my wife and I bought our wedding rings from there for a fraction of the cost of going to a jewelry store. Plus, in the case of both the the style of rings we wanted and also bum bags (I'm forgetful and women's clothes don't have pockets), some goods aren't available anywhere else.
  - maccard 9y ago
    > They are cheaper for sone things Cheaper than what, though? High street stores? sure. Without commenting on your specific example, the point is that much of the "hand made" stuff is just purchased from AliExpress and sold on with a markup, so it would have been cheaper for you to have bought it from AliExpress
  - nommm-nommm 9y ago
    But can you get those same rings for cheaper on AliExpress or eBay or Walmart or discountringsdirectfromchina.com or something? The point is you're going in with the expectation of a handcrafted item whereas half the stuff comes straight from a Chinese factory. The market for mass produced items is pretty saturated with many options, Esty originally differentiated itself with hand made items and buyers are willing to pay a premium for handcrafted items.
- saurik 9y ago
  It isn't really possible to sell a handful of random handmade things on Amazon, and that was clearly something you were interested in: it might be annoying as the stuff you want gets buried, but at least it is there?
- nkrisc 9y ago
  In theory you'd go there because there still is some genuinely cool stuff you can't get elsewhere. Of course, as has been stated, the problem is finding it.
- wmeredith 9y ago
  When your store is flooded with garbage, consumers may decide what they want to buy is nothing at all.
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
That's a really good point. Even taking mass produced art and modifying it is in a way it's own art and I've seen some really, really good ones. Seems a bit unsolvable.
- ramy_d 9y ago
  Maybe if they were required to mention categorical suppliers it would further inform consumers
  - blhack 9y ago
    That's an interesting idea, and it has a secondary benefit of informing buyers about sustainability.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    So much this. Folks should just be honest about it.
    - code_duck 9y ago
      'Folks should just be honest' is unfortunately not a solid policy for an international marketplace.
      - ramy_d 9y ago
        It should be a rule liable to punitive measures when broken.
        code_duck 9y ago
        Of course, and Etsy has tried many rules that have punishment attached. Like most communities or marketplaces the punishment is removal of your listings or suspension of some account privileges. Unfortunately my experience is they were very inconsistent with application of their rules, and often closed stores that didn't deserve it, sometimes repeatedly, while obvious rule breakers operated for months. Sometimes they remove items, sometimes esp. in the past you just come to log in and your password doesn't work and your store is gone. While they also had issue forming reasonable procedures and rules, much of the problems are with application of their rules, as in having enough employees and managing training them effectively.
paganel 9y ago
> The problem is that you basically have to examine every single item, and then personally decide if it qualifies as art or not. This reminded me of Walter Benjamin's essay "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction", which was written ~80 years ago. Not sure there's any "solution" to what you or the OP are describing.
- pessimizer 9y ago
  Turns out you can't mass produce individualism.
  - Balgair 9y ago
    I mean, you can mass produce the appearance of individualism with a large enough data set and a well constrained ecosystem. Look at all the IoT-toaster bots on FB and Twitter scamming real people out of money. To some, the appearance is as good as the real thing.
Joeri 9y ago
This is exactly the same problem as fraudulent goods in any storefront. You solve it via a combination of policy and user flagging. Etsy should put it in their terms that you're not allowed to resell goods there acquired from somewhere else. Then they can have a user form where people can file a tos violation with link to the original store.
- code_duck 9y ago
  It's a lot more complicated than that. For one, they've always allowed some goods made by others - vintage, defined as anything 20 years old or more, and craft supplies. Then, how much does of something has to be made by you? Taking an old suitcase and painting a bird on the side makes it just as 'handmade' as making the entire suitcase from scratch, as far as etsy could figure out. And then, having user reports is not easy either. People may be wrong, or report their competitors. Or the store may lie about their goods. Etsy has tried to do this already for years, anyway. They will investigate and ask store owners to send photos of their workspace.

by blhack 9y ago

TulliusCicero 9y ago

> I think they're in a really tough spot. When they weighed the options, my guess is that they realized that it would be best to let the consumers just decide what they want to buy. ...but then the problem is, what makes them better or different from any other storefront? If there's a ton of mass-produced product on Etsy, why would I want to shop there rather than on Amazon?

blhack 9y ago
>what makes them better or different from any other storefront? Brand, or...genre? I'm having a difficult time finding the word for it, but there is definitely a type of thing I go to etsy to look for. For instance, this: https://www.etsy.com/listing/159631469/aztec-death-whistle-terrifying-roaring?ref=pr_shop https://www.etsy.com/listing/159631469/aztec-death-whistle-t... (which is such a cool piece with such a cool story!). I have no idea where else to go to even look for something like that. When I wanted one, etsy is the first thing that came to mind. So I think that the mass produced stuff hurts browsing, but if you know what you are looking for, it's still easy to cut throgh the noise.
- beaconstudios 9y ago
  I tend to think of Etsy as being the place to go for cultural, rather than mass-produced consumerist, goods.
  - leadingthenet 9y ago
    The problem is that most products only pretend not be mass-produced, when in reality, they are.
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      Perhaps the pretending is what people are paying/looking for. I certainly see a lot of that kind of thing when surveying supermarket shelves.
      - rhizome 9y ago
        Anthropologie makes a ton of cash from it.
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        Do you really think so, that people don't want, say, a unique piece of jewellery but just to pretend - through what appears to be a fraud on behalf of the seller - that some over-priced mass-produced jewellery is unique. I couldn't disagree more. In part if I buy something on Etsy I'm considering that most of the money I spend will get re-spent in that person's local community. In part I'm trying to encourage them in their craftmanship/art.
        moron4hire 9y ago
        I mean, there has to be some level of overlooking the obvious going on. There's no way a person could sustain themselves on the prices that these items are going for, if they were actually hand-made.
        9y ago
Opalhart 9y ago
Maybe if there was a system where consumers could identify the wares as manufactured themselves. Like a "legitimacy" rating system
- Meai 9y ago
  They should really just add a rating system, I dont know anything about etsy but if customers say that they found it on alibaba with a given link then the seller would probably lose all future sales. Sounds like a very easy problem to solve...
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    But then Etsy lose all those sales, which presumably is why they don't do that. Are they more committed to their morals or their profit?
    - fireflash38 9y ago
      That would be a very short-term perspective of them to take. If it becomes common knowledge that it's mostly repackaged chinese goods, then the storefront as a whole would collapse. In this case, preserving their morals I believe is very important to their business as a whole.
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        They probably only need to maintain the perception to keep most of the profits though, so look like your trying but don't do all you can.
        penguat 9y ago
        They need to maintain their customers' perception, which is not so much about trying as actually having an effect...
  - ghostly_s 9y ago
afarrell 9y ago
They are cheaper for sone things: my wife and I bought our wedding rings from there for a fraction of the cost of going to a jewelry store. Plus, in the case of both the the style of rings we wanted and also bum bags (I'm forgetful and women's clothes don't have pockets), some goods aren't available anywhere else.
- maccard 9y ago
  > They are cheaper for sone things Cheaper than what, though? High street stores? sure. Without commenting on your specific example, the point is that much of the "hand made" stuff is just purchased from AliExpress and sold on with a markup, so it would have been cheaper for you to have bought it from AliExpress
- nommm-nommm 9y ago
  But can you get those same rings for cheaper on AliExpress or eBay or Walmart or discountringsdirectfromchina.com or something? The point is you're going in with the expectation of a handcrafted item whereas half the stuff comes straight from a Chinese factory. The market for mass produced items is pretty saturated with many options, Esty originally differentiated itself with hand made items and buyers are willing to pay a premium for handcrafted items.
saurik 9y ago
It isn't really possible to sell a handful of random handmade things on Amazon, and that was clearly something you were interested in: it might be annoying as the stuff you want gets buried, but at least it is there?
nkrisc 9y ago
In theory you'd go there because there still is some genuinely cool stuff you can't get elsewhere. Of course, as has been stated, the problem is finding it.
wmeredith 9y ago
When your store is flooded with garbage, consumers may decide what they want to buy is nothing at all.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago

That's a really good point. Even taking mass produced art and modifying it is in a way it's own art and I've seen some really, really good ones. Seems a bit unsolvable.

ramy_d 9y ago
Maybe if they were required to mention categorical suppliers it would further inform consumers
- blhack 9y ago
  That's an interesting idea, and it has a secondary benefit of informing buyers about sustainability.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  So much this. Folks should just be honest about it.
  - code_duck 9y ago
    'Folks should just be honest' is unfortunately not a solid policy for an international marketplace.
    - ramy_d 9y ago
      It should be a rule liable to punitive measures when broken.
      - code_duck 9y ago
        Of course, and Etsy has tried many rules that have punishment attached. Like most communities or marketplaces the punishment is removal of your listings or suspension of some account privileges. Unfortunately my experience is they were very inconsistent with application of their rules, and often closed stores that didn't deserve it, sometimes repeatedly, while obvious rule breakers operated for months. Sometimes they remove items, sometimes esp. in the past you just come to log in and your password doesn't work and your store is gone. While they also had issue forming reasonable procedures and rules, much of the problems are with application of their rules, as in having enough employees and managing training them effectively.

paganel 9y ago

> The problem is that you basically have to examine every single item, and then personally decide if it qualifies as art or not. This reminded me of Walter Benjamin's essay "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction", which was written ~80 years ago. Not sure there's any "solution" to what you or the OP are describing.

pessimizer 9y ago
Turns out you can't mass produce individualism.
- Balgair 9y ago
  I mean, you can mass produce the appearance of individualism with a large enough data set and a well constrained ecosystem. Look at all the IoT-toaster bots on FB and Twitter scamming real people out of money. To some, the appearance is as good as the real thing.

Joeri 9y ago

This is exactly the same problem as fraudulent goods in any storefront. You solve it via a combination of policy and user flagging. Etsy should put it in their terms that you're not allowed to resell goods there acquired from somewhere else. Then they can have a user form where people can file a tos violation with link to the original store.

code_duck 9y ago
It's a lot more complicated than that. For one, they've always allowed some goods made by others - vintage, defined as anything 20 years old or more, and craft supplies. Then, how much does of something has to be made by you? Taking an old suitcase and painting a bird on the side makes it just as 'handmade' as making the entire suitcase from scratch, as far as etsy could figure out. And then, having user reports is not easy either. People may be wrong, or report their competitors. Or the store may lie about their goods. Etsy has tried to do this already for years, anyway. They will investigate and ask store owners to send photos of their workspace.