4 ms·

All software can be reduced to mathematical formulae, which cannot be patented, so no. There should be no such thing as a software patent.

a3n 9y ago
I'm very sympathetic to the idea of disallowing software patents; to my layman's sensibilities, so many of them are ridiculous, or after the fact grants of something that has been done in practice for years, or predatory, or all that and more. However, any physical machine or process can be reduced to the laws of physics, and you can't patent the laws of physics as far as I know. I don't think "reduced to mathematical formulae" is in itself a great argument. Should the jacquard loom have been granted a patent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom https://www.google.com/patents/US578068 https://www.google.com/patents/US578068
- louithethrid 9y ago
  Not using a patent in a product or doing further research into the area, should reduce the time of patent on a logarithmic scale.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  The loom? Sure. The exact pattern on the cards themselves? Maybe not. I'd say no, but I recognize that US law currently says differently. It seems like the old pattern of "Patent a certain method of weaving brocade", then later "Patent a certain method of weaving brocade...on (mechanical) computers!"
  - a3n 9y ago
    The exact pattern on the cards would seem to be a copyright issue more than a patent issue. To the original objection that you can't patent math, I think some countries do disallow software patents, don't know if it's that reason or something else. But if they can disallow because math, shouldn't they disallow all patents because physics?
    - dahauns 9y ago
      You're on to something here - physics vs math as a demarcation line is actually a thing: German patent law for example has had the term "Technizität" as a neccessary property for a patent to be valid. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technizit%C3%A4t https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technizit%C3%A4t Money quote from the BGH (German Supreme Court): "Als patentierbar anzusehen ist eine Lehre zum planmäßigen Handeln unter Einsatz beherrschbarer Naturkräfte zur Erreichung eines kausal übersehbaren Erfolges." (GTrans:"To be considered patentable is a doctrine of planned action using controllable natural forces to achieve a causally overlookable success." :) ) i.e. You gotta use physics in your patent. I have been coming back to this time and again, and today I still see it as the least shitty definition in regard to what should be patentable and what shouldn't. Other national patent offices in Europe have used similar demarcation properties and it had served them quite well...until the degradation of patent standards started here as well around the turn of the millenium, with the first act being the EPO starting to issue software patents in rather blatant violation of its mandate.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      No. Math is not physics, as physics is not chemistry. Patents exist to promote novel applications of physics and chemistry, but do not forbid use of the fundamental laws, and should not forbid use of fundamental mathematical or algorithmic processes. If you can violate a patent in your mind, it shouldn't be granted.
- hdhdhdhdjjj777 9y ago
  How about this: today everyone has a computer capable of building things on their own indistinguishable from commercial software. But one can't without running into problems with some ass hole lawyer renting a mailbox in the burbs of Texas. Assholes hold developers and would be inventors hostage are why software patents should die. Im beyond caring about the business arguments for them. It results in a rigged game and barrier to entry. If Oracle and MS can't compete without special, expensive protection they should die off. But it's yet again the elite paying for things to protect their walled garden
- int_19h 9y ago
  One could even claim that any mechanical device is ultimately reducible to a wavefunction, which is really just math.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    When you can reproduce any mechanical device from its wave function, we'll talk.
    - throwawaykf09 9y ago
      When you can flip the bits required to operate a computer with pure abstract mathematics, we'll talk.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
I mean, I'm very much opposed to over-broad software patents, but that's a fairly silly argument. Anything a human being produces can be reduced to mathematical formulae.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  I think what they may've been referring to is something like the Curry-Howard correspondence, which describes the mapping between computer programs and mathematical proofs. Mathematical proofs can't be patented, and it could be taken to imply that (at least some) programs/algorithms shouldn't be eligible for patent protection.
  - a3n 9y ago
    > Mathematical proofs can't be patented, Only because we've decided so. In the United States, for example, you can copyright the law.
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
If there's a Theory of Everything then surely all physical existence can be expressed with mathematics. In Europe at least maths can't be patented but applications of maths often can, just like software can't be patented as such but if it has real-world technical effect it can. A new rocket launch trajectory may be "just maths" but if it reduces fuel consumption then it arguably isn't "just maths" and so will probably gain a patent. This approach seems compatible with the quid pro quo intention of patents.

a3n 9y ago

I'm very sympathetic to the idea of disallowing software patents; to my layman's sensibilities, so many of them are ridiculous, or after the fact grants of something that has been done in practice for years, or predatory, or all that and more. However, any physical machine or process can be reduced to the laws of physics, and you can't patent the laws of physics as far as I know. I don't think "reduced to mathematical formulae" is in itself a great argument. Should the jacquard loom have been granted a patent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom https://www.google.com/patents/US578068 https://www.google.com/patents/US578068

louithethrid 9y ago
Not using a patent in a product or doing further research into the area, should reduce the time of patent on a logarithmic scale.
khedoros1 9y ago
The loom? Sure. The exact pattern on the cards themselves? Maybe not. I'd say no, but I recognize that US law currently says differently. It seems like the old pattern of "Patent a certain method of weaving brocade", then later "Patent a certain method of weaving brocade...on (mechanical) computers!"
- a3n 9y ago
  The exact pattern on the cards would seem to be a copyright issue more than a patent issue. To the original objection that you can't patent math, I think some countries do disallow software patents, don't know if it's that reason or something else. But if they can disallow because math, shouldn't they disallow all patents because physics?
  - dahauns 9y ago
    You're on to something here - physics vs math as a demarcation line is actually a thing: German patent law for example has had the term "Technizität" as a neccessary property for a patent to be valid. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technizit%C3%A4t https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technizit%C3%A4t Money quote from the BGH (German Supreme Court): "Als patentierbar anzusehen ist eine Lehre zum planmäßigen Handeln unter Einsatz beherrschbarer Naturkräfte zur Erreichung eines kausal übersehbaren Erfolges." (GTrans:"To be considered patentable is a doctrine of planned action using controllable natural forces to achieve a causally overlookable success." :) ) i.e. You gotta use physics in your patent. I have been coming back to this time and again, and today I still see it as the least shitty definition in regard to what should be patentable and what shouldn't. Other national patent offices in Europe have used similar demarcation properties and it had served them quite well...until the degradation of patent standards started here as well around the turn of the millenium, with the first act being the EPO starting to issue software patents in rather blatant violation of its mandate.
  - kbutler 9y ago
    No. Math is not physics, as physics is not chemistry. Patents exist to promote novel applications of physics and chemistry, but do not forbid use of the fundamental laws, and should not forbid use of fundamental mathematical or algorithmic processes. If you can violate a patent in your mind, it shouldn't be granted.
hdhdhdhdjjj777 9y ago
How about this: today everyone has a computer capable of building things on their own indistinguishable from commercial software. But one can't without running into problems with some ass hole lawyer renting a mailbox in the burbs of Texas. Assholes hold developers and would be inventors hostage are why software patents should die. Im beyond caring about the business arguments for them. It results in a rigged game and barrier to entry. If Oracle and MS can't compete without special, expensive protection they should die off. But it's yet again the elite paying for things to protect their walled garden
int_19h 9y ago
One could even claim that any mechanical device is ultimately reducible to a wavefunction, which is really just math.
- kbutler 9y ago
  When you can reproduce any mechanical device from its wave function, we'll talk.
  - throwawaykf09 9y ago
    When you can flip the bits required to operate a computer with pure abstract mathematics, we'll talk.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

I mean, I'm very much opposed to over-broad software patents, but that's a fairly silly argument. Anything a human being produces can be reduced to mathematical formulae.

khedoros1 9y ago
I think what they may've been referring to is something like the Curry-Howard correspondence, which describes the mapping between computer programs and mathematical proofs. Mathematical proofs can't be patented, and it could be taken to imply that (at least some) programs/algorithms shouldn't be eligible for patent protection.
- a3n 9y ago
  > Mathematical proofs can't be patented, Only because we've decided so. In the United States, for example, you can copyright the law.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

If there's a Theory of Everything then surely all physical existence can be expressed with mathematics. In Europe at least maths can't be patented but applications of maths often can, just like software can't be patented as such but if it has real-world technical effect it can. A new rocket launch trajectory may be "just maths" but if it reduces fuel consumption then it arguably isn't "just maths" and so will probably gain a patent. This approach seems compatible with the quid pro quo intention of patents.