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Just in my own experience, after having started a very small company several years ago that is moderately successful for me, nothing Hacker News would care abou

Just in my own experience, after having started a very small company several years ago that is moderately successful for me, nothing Hacker News would care about in the million and billion scheme, but it pays my mortgage and gives me a comfortable life, I found that you will naturally fall into wasting time during work to relax if you ignore it at the expense of said work. Granted, this time doesn't offer much benefit in the course of the working day, personally I'd find if I started work early, that sometimes the meat of my day really wouldn't be productive until later, even though I had been at work for several hours before productivity really took off. When I had my second son and my wife stayed home for three months, I found myself spending most mornings going to the park with my children and wife and just enjoying the first part of my day with them. Each day I did this I came into work in the afternoon with a lot more energy and focus and finished the same amount of work, or more, plus I was able to enjoy my family and felt more fulfilled overall. If I had started my day rolling groggily into the shop with coffee in hand and heroically pounding away, it would have taken me those same hours just to wind up into productivity, and my day would feel more tiring and unfulfilling in the end. Honestly, 7 years in now, I've found I have a natural rhythm to my day, hours I'm focused, hours I'm tired, hours I just don't care and want to do something else, and if I try to work outside of this rhythm, it doesn't make me any more productive, just busy on my own time and needlessly braggadocios towards others when I can say I "worked" 16 hours yesterday when really only 5 hours had anything get done. This is my own experience though, and to each their own. I tried all the productivity hacking and life hacking and it seemed for me, at the end of the day, that finding time to not work did more to help my work than working for the sake of work.

1_player 9y ago
Yes, I agree with you 100%. In my case I am a freelancer, so I have strict deadlines and clients might expect me to work the full 8 hours or more. Hell, I've even been asked to work over the weekends and get my hourly rate adjusted accordingly. I always decline, my flow state does not last more than 5 hours per day with plenty of lazying around on weekends, and working more than that would mean spreading it to a mediocre productivity. Deadlines are met, and clients are happy (as far as I know). Unless we are underachievers, I suspect many are in the same boat and would be as productive with 20% fewer hours.
- superfad 9y ago
  Do you charge your clients by the hour or another way? I feel like I could be just as productive with fewer hours but there is somewhat of a financial conflict when being paid by the hour.
  - 1_player 9y ago
    By the hour. I know I should bill by the day or week, but I think then clients will expect me to work a full working day, i.e. 8 hours. This way, I don't feel like I'm ripping my clients off if I'm working only 2 hours today, or diluting my rate too much if I manage to work 12 hours tomorrow. I really enjoy this freedom.
    - h1d 9y ago
      Maybe it's like that for you but if you can charge per project with a deadline , it would give you a good flexibility even while running multiple clients in parallel which is what I do. Which doesn't feel like ripping off by either side even if you take a whole day off if you keep the deadline accordingly.
      - 1_player 9y ago
        How do you deal with changing specs? That's what scares me about fixed prices. Both of my longest freelance jobs (1+ years) were supposed to be a couple months worth of work. I think the right way is to write the specs down clearly in the initial contract, but since most projects seem to go way past their expiration date, it would entail spending a non-trivial amount of time of continuously updating and agreeing on the new contracts. Anyway, I often have a couple active project at a time, but no more than that because it would make scheduling my time a nightmare. And context switching halfway through the day takes a considerable amount of mental energy.
        h1d 9y ago
        I only work against smaller companies who tend to be frank and flexible with similar ages of 30 or so. Initially, both sides agree in what to deliver (no concrete spec but we talk until we know what needs built) at what price and that is usually enough to ask for more if other side tells me something new or if I'm getting a decent deal for monthly charges after going production, then I tend not to bother much about little extra additions. I always ask questions as I encounter them to be sure that I'm not developing against their intention and let them see the progress continously too. I even question whether what they want is valid or not and provide the reasoning in plain language without much technical terms why I'm complaining about it. The only problem would be I can be slightly behind schedule often on everyone by managing 4+ clients in parallel. Task switching seems crazy but I guess I'm trying to free up brain memory as much as I can to speed it up by not caring anything unnecessary in life (Have no TV, don't care about personally uninteresting stuff even if popular around, work from home where it's quiet etc)
snarf21 9y ago
This is why even at my normal 9-6 type job, I always go out to eat for lunch. I always feel more refreshed and energized after I spend an hour away from my tasks.
snarf21 9y ago
This is why even at my normal 9-6 type job, I always go out to eat for lunch. I always feel more refreshed and energized after I spend an hour away from my tasks.
djtriptych 9y ago
I think the real test is if you're willing to let your employees adopt the same sort of schedule. I've yet to find an employer who is comfortable with this sort of schedule (I only expect 4-5 productive hours in the day) even if some enlightened managers will recognize that reality privately. Would you allow high-value employees to put in high-quality 4 hour workdays? Why or why not?
- spaginal 9y ago
  It's person dependent in my experience. Some people NEED structure in their day and need the 8 hours or 10 hours or however many you require for the work. Most don't have a business owners mindset and just want to stay busy all day and clock out. I know I can work whenever, but most people have been conditioned to put in hours through a lifetime of previous employment and it's extremely difficult to break the habit once it's ingrained. I know I've tried giving many employees lots of runway, but in my experience, hourly and even piece work (commission) employees can find a way to make a 1 hour task fill the 8 hours instead of efficiently working out of it and moving on if the incentives aren't there to break them of it. Others will abuse it and not get the work done. It can be frustrating.
- drvdevd 9y ago
  This is an important point. I would personally allow it, because I believe the fundamental premise to be true. In my experience, too much time in the "standard work day" is wasted on looking like you're working, at all levels of the hierarchy of most businesses. OTOH, I would demand some sort of measurable feedback and/or self evaluation from employees to determine which schedule works best for them. Maybe that's just too much overhead for a larger team, though. Perhaps at a certain point in size, the productivity gains VS overhead of "managing" more flexible schedules, become minimal.
  - RealityVoid 9y ago
    I don't think this works, because, frankly, in a team, the usually is a guy who picks up other people's slack and, because he's that good, he really works 8h of the day. The bigger the company, the more true this is because it grings up inefficiencies that need to be filled with personell time.
dominotw 9y ago
>nothing Hacker News would care about in the million and billion scheme, but it pays my mortgage and gives me a comfortable life Man! this is precisely what I care about not one more story about billion dollar unicorn. Would Love to hear your story sometime.
- spaginal 9y ago
  Trust me, I don't mean the million and billion line as a dig at Hacker News, I think as a business owner, the insight and advice in this community is incredible, even for small business owners that it may not necessarily relate too all the time. I've lurked in this community for years reading articles and absorbing advice and only recently started commenting. I work for myself with short term help hired in as needed when orders require, typically seasonal. I build customized conceal carry gun holsters for the CCW market nationally and sell internationally as well. It's a very small business, but I worked to become a niche expert in my part of the field with my product, and I largely do everything on my own, website and marketing work, product development, research, customer support, follow up and feedback, customized manufacturing software using barcoding and kitting parts, customized shipping software, CAD, etc. My hobby is software and machine tools, it's how I relax and have fun, and it's helped my business keep overhead low and productivity up while being able to tweak things as I notice areas needing improvement. Admittedly it's not the most efficient way of doing things compared to how I could do it with a huge team of people and lots of outside investment and expert help, but it keeps my operating overhead very minimal(!), my stress level low(!!), time available for family high(!!!), and I learned a long time ago as a small business owner that a dollar not spent is a dollar you get to keep for yourself to do things you enjoy, or choose to invest. Your hourly rate as a business owner isn't just the total revenue coming in, you have to constantly think of expenses going out at all times. Earning $6,000 to keep $200 can be very stressful for a small business owner with an inconsistent market and the normal fluctuations that happen. Some very large businesses work on this model and scale it into the billions to really make it work, but I can't do that. I want to earn several hundred per day and keep several hundred per day (after fixed costs, taxes, etc.) I need to feed my family, keep the lights on, and save for the rainy day fund, so it's my priority. It boiled down for me that I had a few specific requirements for myself and my business, which helped to shape my business that others in the market have not done, and as a result I know other companies eat my lunch when it comes to segments of the market, but I'm aware of these things and it was a conscious choice. I could have been as successful as some of these companies, but I personally know and talk to many of my colleagues in this position in the market and they've sacrificed more than I was comfortable with, both with health and family, most are divorced it seems. Ultimately, the business has to work for your personal goals. If you want the billion exit, you will obviously engineer your life and the business in that direction in regards to investing and procedures, but I didn't want that game, I'm trying to make a living and not let work consume me. It's a really hard balance.

1_player 9y ago

Yes, I agree with you 100%. In my case I am a freelancer, so I have strict deadlines and clients might expect me to work the full 8 hours or more. Hell, I've even been asked to work over the weekends and get my hourly rate adjusted accordingly. I always decline, my flow state does not last more than 5 hours per day with plenty of lazying around on weekends, and working more than that would mean spreading it to a mediocre productivity. Deadlines are met, and clients are happy (as far as I know). Unless we are underachievers, I suspect many are in the same boat and would be as productive with 20% fewer hours.

superfad 9y ago
Do you charge your clients by the hour or another way? I feel like I could be just as productive with fewer hours but there is somewhat of a financial conflict when being paid by the hour.
- 1_player 9y ago
  By the hour. I know I should bill by the day or week, but I think then clients will expect me to work a full working day, i.e. 8 hours. This way, I don't feel like I'm ripping my clients off if I'm working only 2 hours today, or diluting my rate too much if I manage to work 12 hours tomorrow. I really enjoy this freedom.
  - h1d 9y ago
    Maybe it's like that for you but if you can charge per project with a deadline , it would give you a good flexibility even while running multiple clients in parallel which is what I do. Which doesn't feel like ripping off by either side even if you take a whole day off if you keep the deadline accordingly.
    - 1_player 9y ago
      How do you deal with changing specs? That's what scares me about fixed prices. Both of my longest freelance jobs (1+ years) were supposed to be a couple months worth of work. I think the right way is to write the specs down clearly in the initial contract, but since most projects seem to go way past their expiration date, it would entail spending a non-trivial amount of time of continuously updating and agreeing on the new contracts. Anyway, I often have a couple active project at a time, but no more than that because it would make scheduling my time a nightmare. And context switching halfway through the day takes a considerable amount of mental energy.
      - h1d 9y ago
        I only work against smaller companies who tend to be frank and flexible with similar ages of 30 or so. Initially, both sides agree in what to deliver (no concrete spec but we talk until we know what needs built) at what price and that is usually enough to ask for more if other side tells me something new or if I'm getting a decent deal for monthly charges after going production, then I tend not to bother much about little extra additions. I always ask questions as I encounter them to be sure that I'm not developing against their intention and let them see the progress continously too. I even question whether what they want is valid or not and provide the reasoning in plain language without much technical terms why I'm complaining about it. The only problem would be I can be slightly behind schedule often on everyone by managing 4+ clients in parallel. Task switching seems crazy but I guess I'm trying to free up brain memory as much as I can to speed it up by not caring anything unnecessary in life (Have no TV, don't care about personally uninteresting stuff even if popular around, work from home where it's quiet etc)

snarf21 9y ago

This is why even at my normal 9-6 type job, I always go out to eat for lunch. I always feel more refreshed and energized after I spend an hour away from my tasks.

snarf21 9y ago

This is why even at my normal 9-6 type job, I always go out to eat for lunch. I always feel more refreshed and energized after I spend an hour away from my tasks.

djtriptych 9y ago

I think the real test is if you're willing to let your employees adopt the same sort of schedule. I've yet to find an employer who is comfortable with this sort of schedule (I only expect 4-5 productive hours in the day) even if some enlightened managers will recognize that reality privately. Would you allow high-value employees to put in high-quality 4 hour workdays? Why or why not?

spaginal 9y ago
It's person dependent in my experience. Some people NEED structure in their day and need the 8 hours or 10 hours or however many you require for the work. Most don't have a business owners mindset and just want to stay busy all day and clock out. I know I can work whenever, but most people have been conditioned to put in hours through a lifetime of previous employment and it's extremely difficult to break the habit once it's ingrained. I know I've tried giving many employees lots of runway, but in my experience, hourly and even piece work (commission) employees can find a way to make a 1 hour task fill the 8 hours instead of efficiently working out of it and moving on if the incentives aren't there to break them of it. Others will abuse it and not get the work done. It can be frustrating.
drvdevd 9y ago
This is an important point. I would personally allow it, because I believe the fundamental premise to be true. In my experience, too much time in the "standard work day" is wasted on looking like you're working, at all levels of the hierarchy of most businesses. OTOH, I would demand some sort of measurable feedback and/or self evaluation from employees to determine which schedule works best for them. Maybe that's just too much overhead for a larger team, though. Perhaps at a certain point in size, the productivity gains VS overhead of "managing" more flexible schedules, become minimal.
- RealityVoid 9y ago
  I don't think this works, because, frankly, in a team, the usually is a guy who picks up other people's slack and, because he's that good, he really works 8h of the day. The bigger the company, the more true this is because it grings up inefficiencies that need to be filled with personell time.

dominotw 9y ago

>nothing Hacker News would care about in the million and billion scheme, but it pays my mortgage and gives me a comfortable life Man! this is precisely what I care about not one more story about billion dollar unicorn. Would Love to hear your story sometime.

spaginal 9y ago
Trust me, I don't mean the million and billion line as a dig at Hacker News, I think as a business owner, the insight and advice in this community is incredible, even for small business owners that it may not necessarily relate too all the time. I've lurked in this community for years reading articles and absorbing advice and only recently started commenting. I work for myself with short term help hired in as needed when orders require, typically seasonal. I build customized conceal carry gun holsters for the CCW market nationally and sell internationally as well. It's a very small business, but I worked to become a niche expert in my part of the field with my product, and I largely do everything on my own, website and marketing work, product development, research, customer support, follow up and feedback, customized manufacturing software using barcoding and kitting parts, customized shipping software, CAD, etc. My hobby is software and machine tools, it's how I relax and have fun, and it's helped my business keep overhead low and productivity up while being able to tweak things as I notice areas needing improvement. Admittedly it's not the most efficient way of doing things compared to how I could do it with a huge team of people and lots of outside investment and expert help, but it keeps my operating overhead very minimal(!), my stress level low(!!), time available for family high(!!!), and I learned a long time ago as a small business owner that a dollar not spent is a dollar you get to keep for yourself to do things you enjoy, or choose to invest. Your hourly rate as a business owner isn't just the total revenue coming in, you have to constantly think of expenses going out at all times. Earning $6,000 to keep $200 can be very stressful for a small business owner with an inconsistent market and the normal fluctuations that happen. Some very large businesses work on this model and scale it into the billions to really make it work, but I can't do that. I want to earn several hundred per day and keep several hundred per day (after fixed costs, taxes, etc.) I need to feed my family, keep the lights on, and save for the rainy day fund, so it's my priority. It boiled down for me that I had a few specific requirements for myself and my business, which helped to shape my business that others in the market have not done, and as a result I know other companies eat my lunch when it comes to segments of the market, but I'm aware of these things and it was a conscious choice. I could have been as successful as some of these companies, but I personally know and talk to many of my colleagues in this position in the market and they've sacrificed more than I was comfortable with, both with health and family, most are divorced it seems. Ultimately, the business has to work for your personal goals. If you want the billion exit, you will obviously engineer your life and the business in that direction in regards to investing and procedures, but I didn't want that game, I'm trying to make a living and not let work consume me. It's a really hard balance.