6 ms·

I'm coming more to the conclusion that to be "successful" (i.e. achieving your goal), one must have a substantial layer of good marketing behind it. No longer c

I'm coming more to the conclusion that to be "successful" (i.e. achieving your goal), one must have a substantial layer of good marketing behind it. No longer can a scientist say "take this vaccine so you won't die," now they must also have a witty sign that infotains people. While I'd like to see a more facts-based approach to civic life, this is the world we live in. All the better that people who are historically bad communicators (scientist, engineers, doctors, etc) are realizing that they too need to apply a marketing "layer" to their speech, otherwise their message will be totally ignored.

visakanv 10y ago
> No longer can a scientist say "take this vaccine so you won't die," now they must also have a witty sign that infotains people. Implying that this wasn't the case before? From what I remember, the guy who said "wash your hands so your patients don't die" basically got ostracized [1], and even Leonardo Da Vinci had to sell himself in his resume's cover letter [2]. I think Dan Ariely has the right attitude towards all of this [3]. When we design things like buildings and bridges, we take physics into account. We know that we can't build a bridge a certain way because it'll collapse. Similarly, when we're designing for people, we have to take human nature (behavioral psychology, whatever you want to call it) into account. Facts are important, but so is a sensitivity to the person you're trying to convince of those facts. That's just the reality of communication, I'm afraid. _ [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/37566392... [2] http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/skills-of-da-vinci.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/skills-of-da-vinci.html [3] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions/transcript?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_...
- ccvannorman 10y ago
  If anything the case for science and facts is better than ever before in history. People were burned at the stake for talking about facts in the past that didn't agree with authority or mainstream. Of course, human nature (when given broad free choice) is to polarize into Pro- or Anti- (science in this case) which is bad for the overall conversations. Solution: Stop caring what others think and accept that the world will often make bad choices, and do what you can.
  - visakanv 10y ago
    > If anything the case for science and facts is better than ever before in history. Oh man, you just reminded me of this really depressing passage I read in a book about biology that I had put out of mind. A career scientist was complaining about how basically he got into science hoping to do science, but witnessed decades of academic politics hampering scientific progress. It's distressing to think about how our own nature holds us back.
    - dnautics 10y ago
      That's still a generally good description of science. Can I depress you more? The structure of funding still incentivises fictional work.
- gipp 10y ago
  > I think Dan Ariely has the right attitude towards all of this [3]. When we design things like buildings and bridges, we take physics into account. We know that we can't build a bridge a certain way because it'll collapse. Similarly, when we're designing for people, we have to take human nature (behavioral psychology, whatever you want to call it) into account. The difference, of course, is that the laws of physics are, so far as we know, immutable. "Human nature", informed by the culture of the moment, is not. When we accept the strategy of "tailor your behavior to human nature" en masse, we create a feedback loop, without a clear picture of where it leads.
  - pharrington 10y ago
    I think you're agreeing with visakanv's point while misunderstanding his words. What he's referring to as behavioral psychology can't be changed by changing society - it's only changed by changing the genome.
    - gipp 10y ago
      This is patently false. There are no fixed constants at the level of social behavior. Nothing about society is "purely genetic", and even if it were, the human genome changes all the time.
      - pharrington 10y ago
        There are probably trivially few fixed constants of social behavior. The animal's feedback loop of encoding stimulus and producing response in environment is, though, determined by genetics. For example, you how would respond to me stroking your shoulder is extremely contextual. The given nervous system's training which produces the response to said shoulder stroking is a complicated and chaotic system born from fixed genes.
- cylinder 10y ago
  Who wants to run a test and fedex direct letters like Davinci's to top CEOs? A long form letter with detailed touting of your technical accomplishments as well as your ideas and inventions, rather than the currently en vogue brief email, "would love to chat with you and see if we can work together to power your growth and mission!"
- noblethrasher 10y ago
  Just recently, I was talking to a group of International Relations graduate students about global problems like climate change. I pointed out that none of them (in this case) had a background in science, and couldn’t even prove to themselves that the e.g. the Earth is round. So, “how can you possibly hope to cause ordinary people to understand, believe, and appreciate anthropogenic climate change?” I asked. Predictably, most of the rejoinders were some variation of “we just need to show them the studies and the data”. My reply was that was that we all need to be more intellectually humble and realize that, even among us educated people, most of our beliefs come from having attended the right kinds of theatrical performances (e.g. a good lecture, book, documentary, etc.), which is the same for most of the skeptics and deniers. I told them that the best thing that they could do for their cause is to (1) make sure that they have a basic understanding of the principles of climate science and then (2) create a really good theatrical show that includes some powerful props.
Kenji 10y ago
This has always been the case. Every interaction with every other human is just some sort of 'game' where you have to make things witty and interesting etc. You can't just pour out the bland truth. People will be alienated and bored. Like a waiter in a restaurant, you have to serve the dish nicely so that it appeals the other person. That doesn't mean you have to be dishonest, it just means that presentation matters a whole lot more than engineers and scientists want it to. In fact, presentation is absolutely crucial to success.
- dgudkov 10y ago
  It heavily depends on importance. If you're dying from thirst in a desert you won't care if someone is offering you water in a 'witty and interesting' way or not. The less something is important (or unique) the more entertainment you need to sell it.
  - rdiddly 10y ago
    Now we're getting somewhere. Could it be extrapolated, then, that anything carrying that shiny veneer of salesmanship, is probably something you don't really need, a.k.a. bullshit? Certainly the mindset results in hanging onto more of your money, more often, and for longer.
    - dgudkov 10y ago
      Probably, to some extent. There is no way to sell Coca-Cola rather than by extreme level of salesmanship because nobody really needs it. At the same time you won't see any advertisement for tap water.
    - calvano915 10y ago
      Salesmanship does not always equal BS, and I'm not sure that the BS is inverse to importance. Rather, actualized importance and perception of importance are independent and the BS can be useful to magnify one and/or the other. Thus, selling an effective vaccine vs snake oil, both of which may/will not sell itself largely on facts alone.
  - 10y ago

visakanv 10y ago

> No longer can a scientist say "take this vaccine so you won't die," now they must also have a witty sign that infotains people. Implying that this wasn't the case before? From what I remember, the guy who said "wash your hands so your patients don't die" basically got ostracized [1], and even Leonardo Da Vinci had to sell himself in his resume's cover letter [2]. I think Dan Ariely has the right attitude towards all of this [3]. When we design things like buildings and bridges, we take physics into account. We know that we can't build a bridge a certain way because it'll collapse. Similarly, when we're designing for people, we have to take human nature (behavioral psychology, whatever you want to call it) into account. Facts are important, but so is a sensitivity to the person you're trying to convince of those facts. That's just the reality of communication, I'm afraid. _ [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/12/37566392... [2] http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/skills-of-da-vinci.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/skills-of-da-vinci.html [3] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions/transcript?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_...

ccvannorman 10y ago
If anything the case for science and facts is better than ever before in history. People were burned at the stake for talking about facts in the past that didn't agree with authority or mainstream. Of course, human nature (when given broad free choice) is to polarize into Pro- or Anti- (science in this case) which is bad for the overall conversations. Solution: Stop caring what others think and accept that the world will often make bad choices, and do what you can.
- visakanv 10y ago
  > If anything the case for science and facts is better than ever before in history. Oh man, you just reminded me of this really depressing passage I read in a book about biology that I had put out of mind. A career scientist was complaining about how basically he got into science hoping to do science, but witnessed decades of academic politics hampering scientific progress. It's distressing to think about how our own nature holds us back.
  - dnautics 10y ago
    That's still a generally good description of science. Can I depress you more? The structure of funding still incentivises fictional work.
gipp 10y ago
> I think Dan Ariely has the right attitude towards all of this [3]. When we design things like buildings and bridges, we take physics into account. We know that we can't build a bridge a certain way because it'll collapse. Similarly, when we're designing for people, we have to take human nature (behavioral psychology, whatever you want to call it) into account. The difference, of course, is that the laws of physics are, so far as we know, immutable. "Human nature", informed by the culture of the moment, is not. When we accept the strategy of "tailor your behavior to human nature" en masse, we create a feedback loop, without a clear picture of where it leads.
- pharrington 10y ago
  I think you're agreeing with visakanv's point while misunderstanding his words. What he's referring to as behavioral psychology can't be changed by changing society - it's only changed by changing the genome.
  - gipp 10y ago
    This is patently false. There are no fixed constants at the level of social behavior. Nothing about society is "purely genetic", and even if it were, the human genome changes all the time.
    - pharrington 10y ago
      There are probably trivially few fixed constants of social behavior. The animal's feedback loop of encoding stimulus and producing response in environment is, though, determined by genetics. For example, you how would respond to me stroking your shoulder is extremely contextual. The given nervous system's training which produces the response to said shoulder stroking is a complicated and chaotic system born from fixed genes.
cylinder 10y ago
Who wants to run a test and fedex direct letters like Davinci's to top CEOs? A long form letter with detailed touting of your technical accomplishments as well as your ideas and inventions, rather than the currently en vogue brief email, "would love to chat with you and see if we can work together to power your growth and mission!"
noblethrasher 10y ago
Just recently, I was talking to a group of International Relations graduate students about global problems like climate change. I pointed out that none of them (in this case) had a background in science, and couldn’t even prove to themselves that the e.g. the Earth is round. So, “how can you possibly hope to cause ordinary people to understand, believe, and appreciate anthropogenic climate change?” I asked. Predictably, most of the rejoinders were some variation of “we just need to show them the studies and the data”. My reply was that was that we all need to be more intellectually humble and realize that, even among us educated people, most of our beliefs come from having attended the right kinds of theatrical performances (e.g. a good lecture, book, documentary, etc.), which is the same for most of the skeptics and deniers. I told them that the best thing that they could do for their cause is to (1) make sure that they have a basic understanding of the principles of climate science and then (2) create a really good theatrical show that includes some powerful props.

Kenji 10y ago

This has always been the case. Every interaction with every other human is just some sort of 'game' where you have to make things witty and interesting etc. You can't just pour out the bland truth. People will be alienated and bored. Like a waiter in a restaurant, you have to serve the dish nicely so that it appeals the other person. That doesn't mean you have to be dishonest, it just means that presentation matters a whole lot more than engineers and scientists want it to. In fact, presentation is absolutely crucial to success.

dgudkov 10y ago
It heavily depends on importance. If you're dying from thirst in a desert you won't care if someone is offering you water in a 'witty and interesting' way or not. The less something is important (or unique) the more entertainment you need to sell it.
- rdiddly 10y ago
  Now we're getting somewhere. Could it be extrapolated, then, that anything carrying that shiny veneer of salesmanship, is probably something you don't really need, a.k.a. bullshit? Certainly the mindset results in hanging onto more of your money, more often, and for longer.
  - dgudkov 10y ago
    Probably, to some extent. There is no way to sell Coca-Cola rather than by extreme level of salesmanship because nobody really needs it. At the same time you won't see any advertisement for tap water.
  - calvano915 10y ago
    Salesmanship does not always equal BS, and I'm not sure that the BS is inverse to importance. Rather, actualized importance and perception of importance are independent and the BS can be useful to magnify one and/or the other. Thus, selling an effective vaccine vs snake oil, both of which may/will not sell itself largely on facts alone.
- 10y ago