19 ms·

Why Germany Educates International Students for Free

213 points by imartin2k 10y ago

yowkow 10y ago
Certainly laudable. How does one "stick around" after graduation - do you have to learn German?
- heisenbit 10y ago
  While you can "survive" in Germany w/o German and may be able to work in an international IT company when it comes to "living" I have yet to see people sticking around longer who did not learn German.
  - geden 10y ago
    Depends here you are. I have 20+ British / American friends in Berlin none of whom speak fluent German and get on just fine.
- imartin2k 10y ago
  As a native German, I'd say it is essential in most parts of the country, except in a few urban areas such as Berlin or maybe Munich. But generally, for integration purposes (and also for better dealing with the infamous German bureaucracy), staying in Germany without learning German would become pretty painful after a while.
- flohofwoe 10y ago
  Depends on the area of work I guess. It's not that uncommon to have English as company language in startups or IT companies in general, but even if not you'll get around with English just fine.
  - yowkow 10y ago
    Thanks flohofwoe, thats' kind of what I was really curious to know.
- Semaphor 10y ago
  Some large international companies, Dräger where I live, for example, have fully English departments (they employ a lot of grad students and post docs). But when those who never planned to stay forever start learning German soon after they arrive.
- HarryHirsch 10y ago
  do you have to learn German? Why wouldn't you want to? It's a lovely country, with a huge body of literature that you'd deprive yourself of if you refuse to learn the language. And why isolate yourself from the locals? Weird attitude, that.
  - chrisseaton 10y ago
    They didn't say they didn't want to did they? You imagined that. It'd be fantastic to be able to learn the languages of all the countries you visit, but not everyone finds that easy do they.
    - HarryHirsch 10y ago
      The OP didn't talk about visiting a country, he asked about settling in Germany. The words were "do you have to", not "I wish I could"; he made learning your adopted country's language sound like a chore instead of a challenge. Full immersion makes the learning process much easier. Besides, taking citizenship of any country requires a language exam.
  - yowkow 10y ago
    Ok. I apologize. I should have been clearer. By "stick around" I really meant stay/work for a few years (like 5 or 6 years) not settle down permanently in Germany. And yes, I agree if you going to live permanently in a country you should know the local language and also imbibe the local culture to a certain point. Thanks.
- anotheryou 10y ago
  You probably will need to learn german and to find an employer that likes you enough to jump the beurocracy hoops for you (signing that they couldn't find any germans to do the job with some proof of rejected german candidates).
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  Yes, you have to learn German. You should learn the language of any country you are staying long-term. It's not that hard.
FredrikMeyer 10y ago
It is the same situation in Norway. International students pay no tuition (and we have the same debate here whether to continue this situation...). On the other hand, living costs in Norway are quite high.
- chrismealy 10y ago
  Are courses in Norwegian?
  - nattmat 10y ago
    None of the comp. sci. courses I have been to at least. Norwegian lecturers will usually ask if anyone does not speak Norwegian. This is at masters level at UiO; I am not sure about bachelor courses.
    - Aqwis 10y ago
      Bachelor's level courses are in Norwegian.
  - FredrikMeyer 10y ago
    In my mathematics education, the standard has been that first year courses are "almost always" taught in Norwegian, whereas second year and higher are taught in English if there are non-Norwegians present.
erikb 10y ago
Funny. I took care of foreign students in my German university and they get exploited the hell out. At first they pay more than German students for the same semester, despite having worse chances to succeed (language barrier, culture barrier, fewer friends/family etc). Then they have to join preparation courses one way or another, because, you know, German isn't easy. Then they hardly get access to the public student dorms and are put 3-6 people in old, unclean apartments far away from university (partly without public transport access) and EACH of them pays as much as a German would pay for the whole apartment. Professors also have huge power over them and in some points can even enforce them indirectly to return to their home country. Old dudes (teachers, profs, organizers) dating barely legal girls in exchange for favors also is accepted practice. Sure, the official part of everything they have to do and pay to succeed may be the same as for Germans and none of the "fees" may be labeled as such, but studying in Germany is much more expensive for foreign students than for Germans.
- Semaphor 10y ago
  None of those things happen at my University. It sounds like yours was simply extremely rotten.
  - erikb 10y ago
    Yeah, even though this part of my university wasn't clear to me until I directly worked there, you would've certainly heard some strange stories of corruption if your university would be on the same level. Mine even has reports on youtube about the chancellor giving money to foreign professors without them doing something for it, people in high offices sleeping with each other and keeping each others positions save, etc.
- germanier 10y ago
  Which university was this? Because in mine (HU) foreigners weren't treated any different.
  - erikb 10y ago
    Edit: After responding to some other comments I have to rewrite this. True, if you never heard anything about corruption in your university it may percentagewise be much better than mine. My reaction towards HU (assuming Berlin, no idea if there are other HUs out there) however is stiff, since I also know about some corruption there. It's not the same level though and a totally different department. ---- old comment "I haven't seen foreigners getting treated any different." HU is not the smallest university. Mine was much smaller, but still I didn't know until I worked directly in that area. I don't want to mention the name of the university.
TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
> in Germany, students -- on the whole -- famously pay no tuition fees, regardless of where they come from. Seen from the U.S. or Britain, this policy may appear either supremely principled or incredibly naïve “Britain”? Do they perhaps mean England? The other three nations of the United Kingdom have either free (Scotland) or vastly cheaper (Wales, Northern Ireland) university tuition fees.
- stable-point 10y ago
  I think the key part is "regardless of where they come from". For instance, Scotland has free tuition for the Scottish and other EU citizens, but not for citizens of England/Wales/NI or international students. (The fees for an English person are typically cheaper than other English universities, but still not to be sniffed at). I am not sure about NI or Wales, but I imagine there's a similar situation.
  - ekr 10y ago
    Scotland and free tuition? I was thinking about a MSc in computer science at the University of Edinburgh, and it's definitely not free, even for EU citizens: http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_code=PTMSCCMPSI1F http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_cod....
    - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
      That's a postgraduate course. I guess free tuition applies only to undergraduates.
- deleted 10y ago
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louithethrid 10y ago
You grow them, we poach them, they build it, you buy it. What a nice little buisness model. Could be very historic soon. I wonder if with youtube lectures and automated courseware- open source universitys could be errected in nearly any country. Finance the food, finance the healthcare and roof, and those students could study anywhere.
lispm 10y ago
> Why Germany Educates International Students for Free One thing to remember: That university education may not be that expensive does not mean everybody is allowed to study. Universities often set high barriers. In Germany 27% of young adults get an university degree. OECD average is 40%. It's not because Germans are more stupid, but because there are less students allowed to enter University education. Also there are other means of advanced education outside of traditional Universities. Many jobs base their education on the dual education system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system
- asdlllkasdasd 10y ago
  No, this is because in Germany "university degree" is used in a more narrow sense (it is a higher standard than, say, US college degrees).
  - lispm 10y ago
    https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...
- markdown 10y ago
  That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?
  - JanSt 10y ago
    Yes, nearly everyone in Germany either has a university degree or a so called "Berufsausbildung". The Berufsausbildung is a specific training to do a certain kind of occupation (craftsman, computer programmer, carpenter) and is based on approximately 50% of schooling and 50% of hands-on work in a company. It typically takes three years and usually you stay at that company as a worker afterwards
anotheryou 10y ago
You still need rich parents, because you're not allowed to work much to support yourself.
- dom0 10y ago
  Hint: This is the same for every student. If you want to work full-time you need to make your studies half-time.
  - anotheryou 10y ago
    Germans can get state-support ("Bafög") if the parents can't support, they can work self-employed and they can take non-"student-jobs" which opens the possibility to earn significantly more than minimum-wage. They can also work more than 20h/week, loose their student-status and still study.
  - vram22 10y ago
    You mean a total of 1.5x full-time?
    - anotheryou 10y ago
      Or 30h and taking a bit longer with the studying. Actually I'm not sure if things changed a bit with the bachlor/master system though.
- MarkMc 10y ago
  A German student visa allows you to work 120 days per year [0]. At minimum wage [1] that is about EUR 9,000 per year. I think there would be many international students who could support themselves with that. Standard of living would be low compared to Germans, but it's possible. You do however need to show you have EUR 8,640 before you get the student visa [2]. Very poor families would not be able to borrow this amount, so it acts as a barrier for them. [0] https://www.daad.de/deutschland/in-deutschland/arbeit/en/9148-earning-money/ https://www.daad.de/deutschland/in-deutschland/arbeit/en/914... [1] https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=ml9s8a132hlg_&met_y=minimum_wage&idim=country:de:fr:uk&fdim_y=currency:eur&hl=en&dl=en https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=ml9s8a132hlg... [2] https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/bewerbung/en/9199-visa-application/ https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/bewerbung/e...
aphextron 10y ago
Should I study engineering in Germany? I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular "well rounded" stuff they do here. Do they provide many undergrad programs in English? Are the degrees accredited in the US?
- berndsf 10y ago
  There definitely also are programs exclusively in English. Many however are rather partly in English with more option for a Masters degree. I'd check the programs at TU Munich in particular. Karlsruhe, Aachen, Darmstadt are also worth considering albeit less attractive places to live in. All degrees are accredited. My major/minor B.Sc. degree was recognized as a dual major in the US.
  - detaro 10y ago
    At least Aachen (haven't been to the others recently) I wouldn't count as "less attractive to live in", unless your idea of attractive requires "is a large city" (and some are not that far away, and students get "free" train tickets there)
    - qznc 10y ago
      I prefer Karlsruhe to Munich. Karlsruhe is one of the warmest cities in Germany.
      - patates 10y ago
        I would have preferred Hamburg. I guess this makes "enough" evidence that German cities have character and one should visit before deciding where to study.
  - mmarx 10y ago
Boothroid 10y ago
Another possible reason - they may well have little choice! Lists of top ranked universities are generally dominated by the US/UK. In this list the highest ranked German institution is at number 30: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... It's always going to be hard to charge the same as a competitor when your product is inferior.
- revelation 10y ago
  Test your hypothesis then, look up tuition for the top 100 on that list and check if there is a clear gradient. Hint: there isn't.
  - Boothroid 10y ago
    Here's a test - ask a Chinese person thats in the market for a foreign degree to name a UK or US university they would like to attend, then ask them to name a German university that's on their list. I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. I went to a UK university that's in the global top 10. Asians I met after uni would often ask where I studied and had always heard of it.
    - pg314 10y ago
      > I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. You are wrong. In 2015, 30.000 Chinese students were studying at German higher education institutions [1]. That would obviously not be the case if they would never consider studying at a German university. It is true that the US (about 300.000 students [2]) and the UK (about 90.000 students [3]) are more popular. [1] https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chinese-students-top-30000/ https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chine... [2] http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-education-chinese-students-university/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-educat... [3] https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-colleges--schools/Policy-research--statistics/Research--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/ https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-col...
MarkMc 10y ago
> starting in fall 2017, the southwestern state of Baden-Württemberg will start charging non-E.U. students 1,500 euros ($1,634) per semester That's still incredibly cheap for a quality university degree.
- behrendtio 10y ago
  It's cheap but not quality.
  - ar0 10y ago
    > It's cheap but not quality. Do you care to elaborate on that? If I look at the Times Higher Education ranking for Teaching, I see e.g. Heidelberg University on world rank 43: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/universitat-heidelberg#ranking-dataset/589595 https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... (Just picked because it's the first university in Baden-Württemberg I found; obviously, for specific subjects the rankings might vary a bit.) That's not MIT or Harvard, but if that's your standard of "quality" than very few people in the world will have "quality" education.
    - orless 10y ago
      In Baden-Württemberg, KIT (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology) is the "place to go" in computer science.
MarkMc 10y ago
Is there a fixed quota for the number of international students studying at German universities? That is, if the number of international student applications doubled would it make it harder for German students to be accepted into university?
- tmalsburg2 10y ago
  To my knowledge there is no quota either for foreign students or students in general. If we'd get twice as many applications in one year, we have to fit twice as many people in the lecture halls. In Germany, education is actually a right and a lot of people sue their way into universities when they are rejected based on their grades.
MarkMc 10y ago
If you are a young person living in a poor country, the two best investments you can make to improve your standard of living are (a) get a university education; and (b) immigrate to a rich country. Germany offers both: 1. A free undergraduate university degree 2. For every graduate: 18 month work visa after graduation 3. For every STEM graduate who earns more than EUR 40,000 per year: approval to work in Germany forever (ie. a 'blue card') Yes, you must first learn German, have good high school grades and be able to borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa. But for millions of people living in third-world countries that is achievable and a great investment given the enormous returns on offer. So why isn't Germany flooded with foreign university students?
- paganel 10y ago
  > Yes, you must first learn German, Maybe because of this? > be able to borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa Also, this. 9,000 euros does not seem like too much for people from first-world countries, but for people coming from relatively speaking much poorer countries that sum is quite high.
  - MarkMc 10y ago
    Even if the requirements make it impossible for 95% of people, that still leaves millions for whom it is possible.
  - nshelly 10y ago
    Yes, exactly. Learning a foreign language not widely spoken outside of Europe, while also taking college-level math and science courses is a high barrier to entry. This is the primary reason Germany is able to pull this off. If a high-quality college education were free in an English-speaking country, say Australia, there would be a lot more international students willing and able to enroll there. After graduating, you could take the degree and move anywhere in the English-speaking world (work visa permitting). In Germany at least, they assume because you achieved a high proficiency in German there's high likelihood you'll stay and work there for at least a few years after graduation. In a way, this is also true of the job market -- if you're able to get a job in Germany, or Italy, Sweden etc, anywhere where the language is not used widely outside of that country, then you have proved your qualifications and dedication to the country enough to warrant a work visa. Also many Ivy Plus schools offer free tuition to international students who qualify for need-based aid. US taxpayers subsidize these schools indirectly through the tax-exempt endowments, corporate income and federal grant money.
gumby 10y ago
One thing to consider is the very trade-focused nature of the degree. My son is a German citizen, educated until high school in the German language, but he enrolled in a US university. Why? The US system offers a broader education at the undergraduate level. In fact there aren't undergraduate medical or law degrees the way there are in Germany (where you graduate and start practicing / start residency). Honestly I think this distinction is part of a cluster of characteristics that make the US more entrepreneurial than Germany(and why I'd rather drive a German car than an American). (This isn't an argument that one country is better than the other, just that they've picked different local maxima on various issues. FWIW I'm not a citizen of either).
- aphextron 10y ago
  >Honestly I think this distinction is part of a cluster of characteristics that make the US more entrepreneurial than Germany(and why I'd rather drive a German car than an American). There's a bit of trade off involved with this though. Not everyone is suited for entrepreneurship, nor would a healthy economy encourage most people to become entrepreneurs. The stable middle class of highly trained, well paid technical workers in Germany is precisely what the US needs right now. It seems that both systems could benefit from each other's strengths. A liberal education founded in general studies is valuable for many, but most people will spend their lives working technical jobs.
  - gumby 10y ago
    But that's my point: people seem generally happy with the respective systems. Americans by and large seem to like their system, but while I love working in Silicon Valley it's pretty hard not to notice every day that it has a pretty low quality of life versus other OECD countries. If people like it who am I to complain?
ilamont 10y ago
For a point of comparison, the annual tuition prices for colleges in Massachusetts: http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordable-in-state-tuition/?view=all http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordab... Tufts, BC, BU, Olin, MIT, Northeastern, Brandeis all between 45k and 50k. Harvard 41k. When room, board, and books are factored in it's a quarter million dollars over four years. Public colleges (Umass) are a lot cheaper but I've heard "fees" can run up to 10K a semester. Lucrative for U.S. schools, ludicrous for students and families.
- kough 10y ago
  Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together when arguing for your position on tuition prices and their effects on students and families.
  - alpha_squared 10y ago
    > It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic history. If you're justifying that level of debt purely on those two criteria, then I understand that's the value those things mean to you -- and that's okay. Personally, that's not worth it to me. I'm not sure there's "absolute sense" here.
    - whack 10y ago
      There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative. For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay extremely generously if you get your foot in the door. In these contexts, the $250k investment on your college will easily pay for itself within 10 years. Conversely, suppose you're trying to break into a field that's extremely hard to crack (writing?). In such situations, you'll need every edge you can get, and having a great network or an eye-catching degree in your resume can make the difference between you getting a toe-hold and you calling it quits. To be sure, it certainly is very context dependent. Getting a cheap Bachelor's degree from a public university, and a Master's degree from a brand name university, might be a good way to get the best of both worlds. In general though, anyone who's smart enough to get admission into Harvard/Stanford is likely going to make multiple millions of dollars over the course of their lifetime. Given this baseline, investing 250k for a top-notch education/network/resume certainly seems well worth it.
wslh 10y ago
My country, Argentina, does the same just in case you want to study here. The courses are obviously in Spanish. Postgraduate studies are paid.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Would you have more information? Definitely interested!
  - wslh 10y ago
    Information from the government here: http://elbno.cancilleria.gov.ar/en/node/5176 http://elbno.cancilleria.gov.ar/en/node/5176
anon_7523 10y ago
My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them: - They are not required to learn German, so they speak very little to sometimes none at all. - They can only pick companies where speaking only English is tolerated. - Since they speak English, they tend to stick to themselves and cannot integrate. Some of them have a hard time even ordering food. - Indian Bachelor degrees are not comparable to German degrees. I have the feeling that there are some good universities, but others are nowhere near the German standard. Their skill levels are usually lower than these of their German counterparts. It makes sense: I have talked to people, who came from a small village and used a computer in their undergraduate course for the first time. - When you talk about their plans, it becomes clear, that they aimed for the US or the UK and took Germany only for the price and are often not planning to stay, but to take the next opportunity to board a plane to the US. At the moment I do not think it makes any economical sense for Germany. I would do the following: - mandatory German language courses - mandatory German language knowledge, even for English speaking courses - much stricter admission standards, individual tests instead of trusting non-EU standards - better integration with the labor market - maximum to the number of months you can stay in a dorm (already the case for German students) - initiatives to form German + foreign flat shares (primary way of living for students in Germany) At the moment we are just sending the bad students back home and the good students to the US, after they got a free education here. The local university close by reacted and increased the required GRE test scores to Ivy League level. The admissions dropped by an order of magnitude. Germany is very social-democratic when it comes to education, so politicians avoid the word "elite", but when it comes to picking talent, you really should not. I think Germany should capitalize on the political climate in other countries and pick quality over quantity. A tax paid university should not be a third-world aid program.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- discordianfish 10y ago
  This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?
mrkgnao 10y ago
I'm a graduating senior in India, interested in studying math as an undergraduate. Considering that I know some German (~B1), could this work out for me?
- brabus 10y ago
  I would advice you to learn till C1 level. B1 is not enough and Bachelor in Math is mostly in German and you must take TestDAF, so I think you should spend one year or so clearing upto C1 and TestDAF, which is highly advisable. But you can also do the same in Germany, but you have to spend more money in Germany. Since your German level is good, maybe you can find a part time job, but that's no guaranteed thing.
- dom0 10y ago
  Math is normally exclusively taught in German and it's not the simple kind of German, either.
- orless 10y ago
  I came to Germany in 2001 to work as a scientist knowing no German at all. It worked out pretty very well for me.
MichailP 10y ago
While I think it is good for both Germany and students, it probably has a bit of geopolitics mixed in. All those young people, if they return to their home countries, will be naturally more oriented toward German products thus indirectly making German economy stronger. I saw a similar theme in Russia, where there is even a specialized university for this [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_University_of_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_Universi...
- rodri_vera 10y ago
  I agree, we were told the same thing, when I was a full-degree foreign student in Bavaria: They do this as part of their foreign policy and they expect us to go back home to help develop our country and ideally do business with German businesses.
- woodpanel 10y ago
  Very odd statement to include economical geopolitics here. Do you really believe that German companies lobbied each of the 16 German state-governments to lure in foreign students just so they buy German stuff back at home? Wouldn't it make more sense to influence foreigners directly with this thing called "marketing"? If you're Adidas, why the hell go through this hassle and conspire with << all the other german companies >> to use the german education system as a proxy for getting a little bit of good PR - not even for your product, just German products in general. If there's a geopolitical factor involved at all it's inter-cultural relations, which for a country that ruined most of Europe once is a rather good thing.
  - MichailP 10y ago
    Speaking of Adidas and geopolitics, they produce all their shoes for Europe in Sanino d.o.o in Derventa, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cheap labor in war destroyed country... go figure.
  - MichailP 10y ago
    Not just common consumer goods, but say, electrical engineer educated in Germany would be inclined to use Siemens software and hardware, and he/she would need to put extra effort to learn about alternatives.
faragon 10y ago
In my opinion, unless German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English, or they're going to have problems attracting world-class talent. I.e. accepting as "acceptable behavior" people not willing to learn German as a requirement.
- kayoone 10y ago
  I live and work in the Berlin startup world: "English is a must, German is a plus" is the status quo.
- orless 10y ago
  Many big companies (like SAP) are totally fine with English only. I know a lot of people working in Germany for many years already, almost without speaking a word in German.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English Let's look at the neighbor countries of Germany and my impressions of their German language skills: Austria: German is spoken there Belgium: ? Czechia: Czechs who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by German history (keyword: Sudetenland)) Denmark: ? France: French people IMHO are typically neither good at English nor German Luxembourg: German is one of the languages spoken there the Netherlands: They typically know German quite well (though they often don't like using this language) Poland: Poles who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by the German history with the historical expanse of the German Reich) Switzerland: German is one of the languages spoken there (not that the Swiss would prefer to work in Germany over their own country for obvious reasons) TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on a decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I second language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted, this should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English.
  - 10y ago
jernfrost 10y ago
Several places in Europe are like this. E.g. in my home country Norway you also don't have to pay tuition: https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-norway/Tuition https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-norway/Tuition, and a lot of courses are taught in english. In the Netherlands all master level degrees at all universities are taught in english if there are any non-dutch speakers in class. Both Norway and the Netherlands are perhaps easier if you don't speak the native language than Germany as pretty much everybody speaks quite good english in both places. I have friends in Norway I've known over decades who still don't speak a word of Norwegian. For an english speaker dutch is probably easier to learn than German, as dutch is closer to english. E.g. "I sit in the train and drink water", in dutch becomes something like "Ik sit in de trein en drink water". Not sure about Norwegian, but it is probably an easier language than German. Not quite as complicated grammar. Having studied at very different universities with respect to ranking, I got to say I don't think ranking means very much for the average student. It is overhyped, I can't see a huge difference. Ultimately results are going to depend on you and your efforts. In fact there has been studies of this. Ivy League universities don't actually improve your grades or earning prospects. It just looks like that due to creaming. But when they compare SAT scores of students who could get into an Ivy League but chose not to with those who did, one doesn't see a difference in salary afterwards: https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/... I read in another study that if you are at the lower tier in an ivy league you will actually end up worse, because it will kill your confidence to be around so many people smarter than you. Go to a normal college where you are among the better and it will boost your confidence and ability to excel. And many might already have read that Google does in fact not favor ivy league students as they are typically to dependent on external drive, grades etc, rather than internal drive to make good products which is what matters at google. Anyway I think people should focus more on going a place they would enjoy. I think many European universities are very nice to attend because in Europe there are lots of cities which are easy to walk and with great public transport. That makes life a lot nicer for students. You can easily get around town and do all sorts of stuff, either, with bike, walking, tram, bus etc. Also at least in northern Europe societies tend to offer more freedom for youngsters. I've studied in the US for a year and found it too restrictive. There is too much control on young people. You can't drink until 21. Dormitories have a lot of rules and are gender segregated. In e.g. Norway or the Netherlands, student housing means sharing a real apartment with people. You got mixed gender and you cook food together, can invite people over, come and go when you like.
captainmuon 10y ago
The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where do you draw the line? I was studying when they introduced the tutition fees around 2006, and protested against them. We strongly had the impression that it was never about covering costs, but rather an "educating" measure: to teach students that education has a monetary value, and so that they view themselves as customers. In the US, people view their education usually as an investment on which they expect return (from this thread, "It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest."). Some people view it that way in Germany, too, but I think many others, like me, find that very strange. We study mainly whatever we are talented at, and what we enjoy. Financial considerations are made, but not the main driver. I believe certain people find that mindset threatening or wrong, and work(ed) actively against it. In Germany most notably neoliberal and center/conservative think tanks, like Bertelsmann foundation. These organisations lobbied for tutition fees, but also for the introduction of the Bachelor+Master system, which is much more schoolish and streamlined than the old Diplom/Magister system (which let you more freedom to study at your own pace and according to our interests). When I look at how the money from tutition fees was used, it didn't improve teaching at all (which was the stated goal), but we got fancy new desks and cashback for books (ridiculously). This reinforces my feeling that it was driven by ideology and not by necessity.
- sparkling 10y ago
  > when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners German citizens subsidize this "free" university with their taxes. This includes low-level workers who have never visited a university. So essentially you are asking poor people in Germany to pay for the education of middle-class or rich people from other countries.
  - louithethrid 10y ago
sparkling 10y ago
The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the best grades or skills. Furthermore, many seem to assume that Germany somehow needs to offer this tax payer subsidized "free" university program to attract foreign students to fill shortages in the workforce. This is not the case. First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in very few niches. Second, any EU-citizen (thats 600+ million people outside of Germany) can work in Germany without any permission required. Third, for non-EU citizens there already is a visa program (the "blue card") that allows them to work in the EU if they are qualified, e.g. have a Masters degree from their home country. In summary: German tax payers are asked to fund the education of foreigners at little to no return. Given the "free" nature of the program, it attracts rather unqualified students (or, lets say at least not the top notch). All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third-world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  Wonder if they should have entrance exams to fix the issue? That might weed out the unqualified candidates.
  - fbender 10y ago
    In many many cases, there are processes to assess a student's qualification. In general, if you don't have a German degree or did not reach a certain level, you will have to go through a vetting process – except for those studies were there are too little candidates to warrant a selection process.
- yodsanklai 10y ago
  > All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries. I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact.
rodri_vera 10y ago
The article has many points that are not correct. I was a foreign student who did studienkolleg (preparatory university course), bachelor and master degrees in German in Bavaria. In total, I spent 6 years in their educational system. One thing to highlight is that German universities are very different to the American system of small groups, interaction with students, labs, hand-holding, etc. Traditional German education is one where you are not obliged to go to classes and you only have one final exam at the end of the semester. Some classes had up to 800 students. In other classes, we never got to see the professor and we were taught by a PhD student. Nobody knew your name and you were just another face, if you ever showed up to class. Thus, the marginal cost of having an additional local or foreign student is minimum. This system is not for everyone and given that my classes were all in German, it was very challenging. University-level German (vocabulary, idioms, etc) is very different from the one you learn at the Sprachkurs. Most foreign students dropped out and went back home. This is also accentuated by the fact that if you fail an exam 3 times, you are expelled from the university and you are banned from studying that study field for life across all German universities. Moreover, German universities do not have their own sport facilities and luxurious campuses as their American counterparts. Normally, for sports, there is a shared facility for all local universities and you pay an extra semester ticket to have access. The average German university has old facilities and no luxuries. Thus, the cost base is completely different to universities in the US. Back then, we were told that Germany offers education to foreigners to foster relations with foreign countries. If we foreigners study in Germany and are shaped the German way, once we go home, not only we will be well qualified, but also we will be keen to establish business relations with German companies. During my study times, around 2006, they introduced at my university fees for everyone. The idea was not popular and it was not covering the cost of education. The idea did not last long. Some years later it went back to be free for everyone. German universities are very left-leaning and in the German society there is a wide consensus that university education should be free for all. The CDU and FDP, two political parties on the right spectrum, constantly push the idea of charging foreign students to help finance public education, but the idea has never gotten any type of support in the society.
bisRepetita 10y ago
One argument, not made, is that it may help German students too. Having various nationalities at home expose them to other ways of thinking. And it increases their abilities to deal with them culturally later in life/business. I do find a parallel, at a completely different scale, with the strategy of Loh, the coach of the US high-school team for the Math Olympiads. An important part of his strategy is to invite his international opponents to train with his team. It is counter intuitive, but he says it makes his team better, and they're less scared of competition. They won twice in a row since. NYT article: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-2016/ https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-201...
MarkMc 10y ago
I'm interested in setting up a small non-profit school for poor, young adults in Indonesia to teach them German and other skills necessary for admission to Studienkolleg (the one-year preparatory course for foreign students wishing to apply to a German university). The main goal is to get the student a good IT job in Germany within 5 or 6 years. In return, the student must commit to giving a percentage of his or her income back to the school, so the school can grow without requiring external donations. What does HN think of this plan? Is it achievable? If not, what is the most likely cause of failure? PS: If anyone knows a good lawyer in Indonesia for setting up a yayasan or obtaining KITAS please contact me - see profile.

213 points by imartin2k 10y ago

yowkow 10y ago

Certainly laudable. How does one "stick around" after graduation - do you have to learn German?

heisenbit 10y ago
While you can "survive" in Germany w/o German and may be able to work in an international IT company when it comes to "living" I have yet to see people sticking around longer who did not learn German.
- geden 10y ago
  Depends here you are. I have 20+ British / American friends in Berlin none of whom speak fluent German and get on just fine.
imartin2k 10y ago
As a native German, I'd say it is essential in most parts of the country, except in a few urban areas such as Berlin or maybe Munich. But generally, for integration purposes (and also for better dealing with the infamous German bureaucracy), staying in Germany without learning German would become pretty painful after a while.
flohofwoe 10y ago
Depends on the area of work I guess. It's not that uncommon to have English as company language in startups or IT companies in general, but even if not you'll get around with English just fine.
- yowkow 10y ago
  Thanks flohofwoe, thats' kind of what I was really curious to know.
Semaphor 10y ago
Some large international companies, Dräger where I live, for example, have fully English departments (they employ a lot of grad students and post docs). But when those who never planned to stay forever start learning German soon after they arrive.
HarryHirsch 10y ago
do you have to learn German? Why wouldn't you want to? It's a lovely country, with a huge body of literature that you'd deprive yourself of if you refuse to learn the language. And why isolate yourself from the locals? Weird attitude, that.
- chrisseaton 10y ago
  They didn't say they didn't want to did they? You imagined that. It'd be fantastic to be able to learn the languages of all the countries you visit, but not everyone finds that easy do they.
  - HarryHirsch 10y ago
    The OP didn't talk about visiting a country, he asked about settling in Germany. The words were "do you have to", not "I wish I could"; he made learning your adopted country's language sound like a chore instead of a challenge. Full immersion makes the learning process much easier. Besides, taking citizenship of any country requires a language exam.
- yowkow 10y ago
  Ok. I apologize. I should have been clearer. By "stick around" I really meant stay/work for a few years (like 5 or 6 years) not settle down permanently in Germany. And yes, I agree if you going to live permanently in a country you should know the local language and also imbibe the local culture to a certain point. Thanks.
anotheryou 10y ago
You probably will need to learn german and to find an employer that likes you enough to jump the beurocracy hoops for you (signing that they couldn't find any germans to do the job with some proof of rejected german candidates).
maxxxxx 10y ago
Yes, you have to learn German. You should learn the language of any country you are staying long-term. It's not that hard.

FredrikMeyer 10y ago

It is the same situation in Norway. International students pay no tuition (and we have the same debate here whether to continue this situation...). On the other hand, living costs in Norway are quite high.

chrismealy 10y ago
Are courses in Norwegian?
- nattmat 10y ago
  None of the comp. sci. courses I have been to at least. Norwegian lecturers will usually ask if anyone does not speak Norwegian. This is at masters level at UiO; I am not sure about bachelor courses.
  - Aqwis 10y ago
    Bachelor's level courses are in Norwegian.
- FredrikMeyer 10y ago
  In my mathematics education, the standard has been that first year courses are "almost always" taught in Norwegian, whereas second year and higher are taught in English if there are non-Norwegians present.

erikb 10y ago

Funny. I took care of foreign students in my German university and they get exploited the hell out. At first they pay more than German students for the same semester, despite having worse chances to succeed (language barrier, culture barrier, fewer friends/family etc). Then they have to join preparation courses one way or another, because, you know, German isn't easy. Then they hardly get access to the public student dorms and are put 3-6 people in old, unclean apartments far away from university (partly without public transport access) and EACH of them pays as much as a German would pay for the whole apartment. Professors also have huge power over them and in some points can even enforce them indirectly to return to their home country. Old dudes (teachers, profs, organizers) dating barely legal girls in exchange for favors also is accepted practice. Sure, the official part of everything they have to do and pay to succeed may be the same as for Germans and none of the "fees" may be labeled as such, but studying in Germany is much more expensive for foreign students than for Germans.

Semaphor 10y ago
None of those things happen at my University. It sounds like yours was simply extremely rotten.
- erikb 10y ago
  Yeah, even though this part of my university wasn't clear to me until I directly worked there, you would've certainly heard some strange stories of corruption if your university would be on the same level. Mine even has reports on youtube about the chancellor giving money to foreign professors without them doing something for it, people in high offices sleeping with each other and keeping each others positions save, etc.
germanier 10y ago
Which university was this? Because in mine (HU) foreigners weren't treated any different.
- erikb 10y ago
  Edit: After responding to some other comments I have to rewrite this. True, if you never heard anything about corruption in your university it may percentagewise be much better than mine. My reaction towards HU (assuming Berlin, no idea if there are other HUs out there) however is stiff, since I also know about some corruption there. It's not the same level though and a totally different department. ---- old comment "I haven't seen foreigners getting treated any different." HU is not the smallest university. Mine was much smaller, but still I didn't know until I worked directly in that area. I don't want to mention the name of the university.

TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago

> in Germany, students -- on the whole -- famously pay no tuition fees, regardless of where they come from. Seen from the U.S. or Britain, this policy may appear either supremely principled or incredibly naïve “Britain”? Do they perhaps mean England? The other three nations of the United Kingdom have either free (Scotland) or vastly cheaper (Wales, Northern Ireland) university tuition fees.

stable-point 10y ago
I think the key part is "regardless of where they come from". For instance, Scotland has free tuition for the Scottish and other EU citizens, but not for citizens of England/Wales/NI or international students. (The fees for an English person are typically cheaper than other English universities, but still not to be sniffed at). I am not sure about NI or Wales, but I imagine there's a similar situation.
- ekr 10y ago
  Scotland and free tuition? I was thinking about a MSc in computer science at the University of Edinburgh, and it's definitely not free, even for EU citizens: http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_code=PTMSCCMPSI1F http://www.ed.ac.uk/studying/postgraduate/fees?programme_cod....
  - TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
    That's a postgraduate course. I guess free tuition applies only to undergraduates.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

louithethrid 10y ago

You grow them, we poach them, they build it, you buy it. What a nice little buisness model. Could be very historic soon. I wonder if with youtube lectures and automated courseware- open source universitys could be errected in nearly any country. Finance the food, finance the healthcare and roof, and those students could study anywhere.

lispm 10y ago

> Why Germany Educates International Students for Free One thing to remember: That university education may not be that expensive does not mean everybody is allowed to study. Universities often set high barriers. In Germany 27% of young adults get an university degree. OECD average is 40%. It's not because Germans are more stupid, but because there are less students allowed to enter University education. Also there are other means of advanced education outside of traditional Universities. Many jobs base their education on the dual education system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

asdlllkasdasd 10y ago
No, this is because in Germany "university degree" is used in a more narrow sense (it is a higher standard than, say, US college degrees).
- lispm 10y ago
  https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...
markdown 10y ago
That's interesting. Are there options for the 73% that don't go to Uni? Trade schools? What about at lower levels (ages 5-12)... do kids get to progress to the next level regardless of performance in an annual exam (like the US "no child left behind" policy), or do they have to have to repeat a year/level if they fail?
- JanSt 10y ago
  Yes, nearly everyone in Germany either has a university degree or a so called "Berufsausbildung". The Berufsausbildung is a specific training to do a certain kind of occupation (craftsman, computer programmer, carpenter) and is based on approximately 50% of schooling and 50% of hands-on work in a company. It typically takes three years and usually you stay at that company as a worker afterwards

anotheryou 10y ago

You still need rich parents, because you're not allowed to work much to support yourself.

dom0 10y ago
Hint: This is the same for every student. If you want to work full-time you need to make your studies half-time.
- anotheryou 10y ago
  Germans can get state-support ("Bafög") if the parents can't support, they can work self-employed and they can take non-"student-jobs" which opens the possibility to earn significantly more than minimum-wage. They can also work more than 20h/week, loose their student-status and still study.
- vram22 10y ago
  You mean a total of 1.5x full-time?
  - anotheryou 10y ago
    Or 30h and taking a bit longer with the studying. Actually I'm not sure if things changed a bit with the bachlor/master system though.
MarkMc 10y ago
A German student visa allows you to work 120 days per year [0]. At minimum wage [1] that is about EUR 9,000 per year. I think there would be many international students who could support themselves with that. Standard of living would be low compared to Germans, but it's possible. You do however need to show you have EUR 8,640 before you get the student visa [2]. Very poor families would not be able to borrow this amount, so it acts as a barrier for them. [0] https://www.daad.de/deutschland/in-deutschland/arbeit/en/9148-earning-money/ https://www.daad.de/deutschland/in-deutschland/arbeit/en/914... [1] https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=ml9s8a132hlg_&met_y=minimum_wage&idim=country:de:fr:uk&fdim_y=currency:eur&hl=en&dl=en https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=ml9s8a132hlg... [2] https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/bewerbung/en/9199-visa-application/ https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/bewerbung/e...

aphextron 10y ago

Should I study engineering in Germany? I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular "well rounded" stuff they do here. Do they provide many undergrad programs in English? Are the degrees accredited in the US?

berndsf 10y ago
There definitely also are programs exclusively in English. Many however are rather partly in English with more option for a Masters degree. I'd check the programs at TU Munich in particular. Karlsruhe, Aachen, Darmstadt are also worth considering albeit less attractive places to live in. All degrees are accredited. My major/minor B.Sc. degree was recognized as a dual major in the US.
- detaro 10y ago
  At least Aachen (haven't been to the others recently) I wouldn't count as "less attractive to live in", unless your idea of attractive requires "is a large city" (and some are not that far away, and students get "free" train tickets there)
  - qznc 10y ago
    I prefer Karlsruhe to Munich. Karlsruhe is one of the warmest cities in Germany.
    - patates 10y ago
      I would have preferred Hamburg. I guess this makes "enough" evidence that German cities have character and one should visit before deciding where to study.
- mmarx 10y ago

Boothroid 10y ago

Another possible reason - they may well have little choice! Lists of top ranked universities are generally dominated by the US/UK. In this list the highest ranked German institution is at number 30: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2017/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... It's always going to be hard to charge the same as a competitor when your product is inferior.

revelation 10y ago
Test your hypothesis then, look up tuition for the top 100 on that list and check if there is a clear gradient. Hint: there isn't.
- Boothroid 10y ago
  Here's a test - ask a Chinese person thats in the market for a foreign degree to name a UK or US university they would like to attend, then ask them to name a German university that's on their list. I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. I went to a UK university that's in the global top 10. Asians I met after uni would often ask where I studied and had always heard of it.
  - pg314 10y ago
    > I suspect they won't even be able to name a single German university, let alone consider studying at one. You are wrong. In 2015, 30.000 Chinese students were studying at German higher education institutions [1]. That would obviously not be the case if they would never consider studying at a German university. It is true that the US (about 300.000 students [2]) and the UK (about 90.000 students [3]) are more popular. [1] https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chinese-students-top-30000/ https://thepienews.com/news/germany-intl-students-up-7-chine... [2] http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-education-chinese-students-university/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/china-us-colleges-educat... [3] https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-colleges--schools/Policy-research--statistics/Research--statistics/International-students-in-UK-HE/ https://institutions.ukcisa.org.uk/Info-for-universities-col...

MarkMc 10y ago

> starting in fall 2017, the southwestern state of Baden-Württemberg will start charging non-E.U. students 1,500 euros ($1,634) per semester That's still incredibly cheap for a quality university degree.

behrendtio 10y ago
It's cheap but not quality.
- ar0 10y ago
  > It's cheap but not quality. Do you care to elaborate on that? If I look at the Times Higher Education ranking for Teaching, I see e.g. Heidelberg University on world rank 43: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/universitat-heidelberg#ranking-dataset/589595 https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin... (Just picked because it's the first university in Baden-Württemberg I found; obviously, for specific subjects the rankings might vary a bit.) That's not MIT or Harvard, but if that's your standard of "quality" than very few people in the world will have "quality" education.
  - orless 10y ago
    In Baden-Württemberg, KIT (Karlsruhe Institute of Technology) is the "place to go" in computer science.

MarkMc 10y ago

Is there a fixed quota for the number of international students studying at German universities? That is, if the number of international student applications doubled would it make it harder for German students to be accepted into university?

tmalsburg2 10y ago
To my knowledge there is no quota either for foreign students or students in general. If we'd get twice as many applications in one year, we have to fit twice as many people in the lecture halls. In Germany, education is actually a right and a lot of people sue their way into universities when they are rejected based on their grades.

MarkMc 10y ago

If you are a young person living in a poor country, the two best investments you can make to improve your standard of living are (a) get a university education; and (b) immigrate to a rich country. Germany offers both: 1. A free undergraduate university degree 2. For every graduate: 18 month work visa after graduation 3. For every STEM graduate who earns more than EUR 40,000 per year: approval to work in Germany forever (ie. a 'blue card') Yes, you must first learn German, have good high school grades and be able to borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa. But for millions of people living in third-world countries that is achievable and a great investment given the enormous returns on offer. So why isn't Germany flooded with foreign university students?

paganel 10y ago
> Yes, you must first learn German, Maybe because of this? > be able to borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa Also, this. 9,000 euros does not seem like too much for people from first-world countries, but for people coming from relatively speaking much poorer countries that sum is quite high.
- MarkMc 10y ago
  Even if the requirements make it impossible for 95% of people, that still leaves millions for whom it is possible.
- nshelly 10y ago
  Yes, exactly. Learning a foreign language not widely spoken outside of Europe, while also taking college-level math and science courses is a high barrier to entry. This is the primary reason Germany is able to pull this off. If a high-quality college education were free in an English-speaking country, say Australia, there would be a lot more international students willing and able to enroll there. After graduating, you could take the degree and move anywhere in the English-speaking world (work visa permitting). In Germany at least, they assume because you achieved a high proficiency in German there's high likelihood you'll stay and work there for at least a few years after graduation. In a way, this is also true of the job market -- if you're able to get a job in Germany, or Italy, Sweden etc, anywhere where the language is not used widely outside of that country, then you have proved your qualifications and dedication to the country enough to warrant a work visa. Also many Ivy Plus schools offer free tuition to international students who qualify for need-based aid. US taxpayers subsidize these schools indirectly through the tax-exempt endowments, corporate income and federal grant money.

gumby 10y ago

One thing to consider is the very trade-focused nature of the degree. My son is a German citizen, educated until high school in the German language, but he enrolled in a US university. Why? The US system offers a broader education at the undergraduate level. In fact there aren't undergraduate medical or law degrees the way there are in Germany (where you graduate and start practicing / start residency). Honestly I think this distinction is part of a cluster of characteristics that make the US more entrepreneurial than Germany(and why I'd rather drive a German car than an American). (This isn't an argument that one country is better than the other, just that they've picked different local maxima on various issues. FWIW I'm not a citizen of either).

aphextron 10y ago
>Honestly I think this distinction is part of a cluster of characteristics that make the US more entrepreneurial than Germany(and why I'd rather drive a German car than an American). There's a bit of trade off involved with this though. Not everyone is suited for entrepreneurship, nor would a healthy economy encourage most people to become entrepreneurs. The stable middle class of highly trained, well paid technical workers in Germany is precisely what the US needs right now. It seems that both systems could benefit from each other's strengths. A liberal education founded in general studies is valuable for many, but most people will spend their lives working technical jobs.
- gumby 10y ago
  But that's my point: people seem generally happy with the respective systems. Americans by and large seem to like their system, but while I love working in Silicon Valley it's pretty hard not to notice every day that it has a pretty low quality of life versus other OECD countries. If people like it who am I to complain?

ilamont 10y ago

For a point of comparison, the annual tuition prices for colleges in Massachusetts: http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordable-in-state-tuition/?view=all http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordab... Tufts, BC, BU, Olin, MIT, Northeastern, Brandeis all between 45k and 50k. Harvard 41k. When room, board, and books are factored in it's a quarter million dollars over four years. Public colleges (Umass) are a lot cheaper but I've heard "fees" can run up to 10K a semester. Lucrative for U.S. schools, ludicrous for students and families.

kough 10y ago
Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together when arguing for your position on tuition prices and their effects on students and families.
- alpha_squared 10y ago
  > It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic history. If you're justifying that level of debt purely on those two criteria, then I understand that's the value those things mean to you -- and that's okay. Personally, that's not worth it to me. I'm not sure there's "absolute sense" here.
  - whack 10y ago
    There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative. For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay extremely generously if you get your foot in the door. In these contexts, the $250k investment on your college will easily pay for itself within 10 years. Conversely, suppose you're trying to break into a field that's extremely hard to crack (writing?). In such situations, you'll need every edge you can get, and having a great network or an eye-catching degree in your resume can make the difference between you getting a toe-hold and you calling it quits. To be sure, it certainly is very context dependent. Getting a cheap Bachelor's degree from a public university, and a Master's degree from a brand name university, might be a good way to get the best of both worlds. In general though, anyone who's smart enough to get admission into Harvard/Stanford is likely going to make multiple millions of dollars over the course of their lifetime. Given this baseline, investing 250k for a top-notch education/network/resume certainly seems well worth it.

wslh 10y ago

My country, Argentina, does the same just in case you want to study here. The courses are obviously in Spanish. Postgraduate studies are paid.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
Would you have more information? Definitely interested!
- wslh 10y ago
  Information from the government here: http://elbno.cancilleria.gov.ar/en/node/5176 http://elbno.cancilleria.gov.ar/en/node/5176

anon_7523 10y ago

My personal experience says, that it is not working out. I cannot tell for the whole country, but I do have some insights, since I am hiring and interviewing students and studied in one of the universities mentioned elsewhere in the thread. There is an English speaking Master program, consisting almost entirely of Pakistani and Indian students. Some facts about them: - They are not required to learn German, so they speak very little to sometimes none at all. - They can only pick companies where speaking only English is tolerated. - Since they speak English, they tend to stick to themselves and cannot integrate. Some of them have a hard time even ordering food. - Indian Bachelor degrees are not comparable to German degrees. I have the feeling that there are some good universities, but others are nowhere near the German standard. Their skill levels are usually lower than these of their German counterparts. It makes sense: I have talked to people, who came from a small village and used a computer in their undergraduate course for the first time. - When you talk about their plans, it becomes clear, that they aimed for the US or the UK and took Germany only for the price and are often not planning to stay, but to take the next opportunity to board a plane to the US. At the moment I do not think it makes any economical sense for Germany. I would do the following: - mandatory German language courses - mandatory German language knowledge, even for English speaking courses - much stricter admission standards, individual tests instead of trusting non-EU standards - better integration with the labor market - maximum to the number of months you can stay in a dorm (already the case for German students) - initiatives to form German + foreign flat shares (primary way of living for students in Germany) At the moment we are just sending the bad students back home and the good students to the US, after they got a free education here. The local university close by reacted and increased the required GRE test scores to Ivy League level. The admissions dropped by an order of magnitude. Germany is very social-democratic when it comes to education, so politicians avoid the word "elite", but when it comes to picking talent, you really should not. I think Germany should capitalize on the political climate in other countries and pick quality over quantity. A tax paid university should not be a third-world aid program.

deleted 10y ago
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discordianfish 10y ago
This comment is so German on so many levels. The reason those people aim for jobs in the UK or US is because there aren't good tech jobs in Germany. Arguing for mandatory German classes to 'lock in' talent somehow is simiarly uninspired as tech companies here. What about creating jobs that good people are willing to work at?

mrkgnao 10y ago

I'm a graduating senior in India, interested in studying math as an undergraduate. Considering that I know some German (~B1), could this work out for me?

brabus 10y ago
I would advice you to learn till C1 level. B1 is not enough and Bachelor in Math is mostly in German and you must take TestDAF, so I think you should spend one year or so clearing upto C1 and TestDAF, which is highly advisable. But you can also do the same in Germany, but you have to spend more money in Germany. Since your German level is good, maybe you can find a part time job, but that's no guaranteed thing.
dom0 10y ago
Math is normally exclusively taught in German and it's not the simple kind of German, either.
orless 10y ago
I came to Germany in 2001 to work as a scientist knowing no German at all. It worked out pretty very well for me.

MichailP 10y ago

While I think it is good for both Germany and students, it probably has a bit of geopolitics mixed in. All those young people, if they return to their home countries, will be naturally more oriented toward German products thus indirectly making German economy stronger. I saw a similar theme in Russia, where there is even a specialized university for this [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_University_of_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples%27_Friendship_Universi...

rodri_vera 10y ago
I agree, we were told the same thing, when I was a full-degree foreign student in Bavaria: They do this as part of their foreign policy and they expect us to go back home to help develop our country and ideally do business with German businesses.
woodpanel 10y ago
Very odd statement to include economical geopolitics here. Do you really believe that German companies lobbied each of the 16 German state-governments to lure in foreign students just so they buy German stuff back at home? Wouldn't it make more sense to influence foreigners directly with this thing called "marketing"? If you're Adidas, why the hell go through this hassle and conspire with << all the other german companies >> to use the german education system as a proxy for getting a little bit of good PR - not even for your product, just German products in general. If there's a geopolitical factor involved at all it's inter-cultural relations, which for a country that ruined most of Europe once is a rather good thing.
- MichailP 10y ago
  Speaking of Adidas and geopolitics, they produce all their shoes for Europe in Sanino d.o.o in Derventa, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Cheap labor in war destroyed country... go figure.
- MichailP 10y ago
  Not just common consumer goods, but say, electrical engineer educated in Germany would be inclined to use Siemens software and hardware, and he/she would need to put extra effort to learn about alternatives.

faragon 10y ago

In my opinion, unless German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English, or they're going to have problems attracting world-class talent. I.e. accepting as "acceptable behavior" people not willing to learn German as a requirement.

kayoone 10y ago
I live and work in the Berlin startup world: "English is a must, German is a plus" is the status quo.
orless 10y ago
Many big companies (like SAP) are totally fine with English only. I know a lot of people working in Germany for many years already, almost without speaking a word in German.
wolfgke 10y ago
> German IT companies accept to work in English because available workforce in neighbor countries already know English Let's look at the neighbor countries of Germany and my impressions of their German language skills: Austria: German is spoken there Belgium: ? Czechia: Czechs who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by German history (keyword: Sudetenland)) Denmark: ? France: French people IMHO are typically neither good at English nor German Luxembourg: German is one of the languages spoken there the Netherlands: They typically know German quite well (though they often don't like using this language) Poland: Poles who want to work in Germany often know German (to me) surprisingly well (this can perhaps be explained by the German history with the historical expanse of the German Reich) Switzerland: German is one of the languages spoken there (not that the Swiss would prefer to work in Germany over their own country for obvious reasons) TLDR: In many Germany's neighboring countries it is common to know German on a decent level - at least if you plan to work in Germany. If there was I second language from a neighboring country in which work should be accepted, this should rather be French (for France and Belgium) instead of English.
- 10y ago

jernfrost 10y ago

Several places in Europe are like this. E.g. in my home country Norway you also don't have to pay tuition: https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-norway/Tuition https://www.studyinnorway.no/study-in-norway/Tuition, and a lot of courses are taught in english. In the Netherlands all master level degrees at all universities are taught in english if there are any non-dutch speakers in class. Both Norway and the Netherlands are perhaps easier if you don't speak the native language than Germany as pretty much everybody speaks quite good english in both places. I have friends in Norway I've known over decades who still don't speak a word of Norwegian. For an english speaker dutch is probably easier to learn than German, as dutch is closer to english. E.g. "I sit in the train and drink water", in dutch becomes something like "Ik sit in de trein en drink water". Not sure about Norwegian, but it is probably an easier language than German. Not quite as complicated grammar. Having studied at very different universities with respect to ranking, I got to say I don't think ranking means very much for the average student. It is overhyped, I can't see a huge difference. Ultimately results are going to depend on you and your efforts. In fact there has been studies of this. Ivy League universities don't actually improve your grades or earning prospects. It just looks like that due to creaming. But when they compare SAT scores of students who could get into an Ivy League but chose not to with those who did, one doesn't see a difference in salary afterwards: https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/2011/03/01/the-ivy-league-earnings-myth https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/the-college-solution/... I read in another study that if you are at the lower tier in an ivy league you will actually end up worse, because it will kill your confidence to be around so many people smarter than you. Go to a normal college where you are among the better and it will boost your confidence and ability to excel. And many might already have read that Google does in fact not favor ivy league students as they are typically to dependent on external drive, grades etc, rather than internal drive to make good products which is what matters at google. Anyway I think people should focus more on going a place they would enjoy. I think many European universities are very nice to attend because in Europe there are lots of cities which are easy to walk and with great public transport. That makes life a lot nicer for students. You can easily get around town and do all sorts of stuff, either, with bike, walking, tram, bus etc. Also at least in northern Europe societies tend to offer more freedom for youngsters. I've studied in the US for a year and found it too restrictive. There is too much control on young people. You can't drink until 21. Dormitories have a lot of rules and are gender segregated. In e.g. Norway or the Netherlands, student housing means sharing a real apartment with people. You got mixed gender and you cook food together, can invite people over, come and go when you like.

captainmuon 10y ago

The thing is, the fees discussed in Germany ( ~1000€ / semester) are no where near covering the costs of a seat for one student. It's just a drop in the ocean, so they might as well keep it free. And when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners. I grew up in Germany, but don't have a German passport. Should I pay more? Where do you draw the line? I was studying when they introduced the tutition fees around 2006, and protested against them. We strongly had the impression that it was never about covering costs, but rather an "educating" measure: to teach students that education has a monetary value, and so that they view themselves as customers. In the US, people view their education usually as an investment on which they expect return (from this thread, "It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest."). Some people view it that way in Germany, too, but I think many others, like me, find that very strange. We study mainly whatever we are talented at, and what we enjoy. Financial considerations are made, but not the main driver. I believe certain people find that mindset threatening or wrong, and work(ed) actively against it. In Germany most notably neoliberal and center/conservative think tanks, like Bertelsmann foundation. These organisations lobbied for tutition fees, but also for the introduction of the Bachelor+Master system, which is much more schoolish and streamlined than the old Diplom/Magister system (which let you more freedom to study at your own pace and according to our interests). When I look at how the money from tutition fees was used, it didn't improve teaching at all (which was the stated goal), but we got fancy new desks and cashback for books (ridiculously). This reinforces my feeling that it was driven by ideology and not by necessity.

sparkling 10y ago
> when tutition is free for Germans, it seems wierd and discriminatory to take fees from foreigners German citizens subsidize this "free" university with their taxes. This includes low-level workers who have never visited a university. So essentially you are asking poor people in Germany to pay for the education of middle-class or rich people from other countries.
- louithethrid 10y ago

sparkling 10y ago

The article is wrong on so many ways. The author states that foreign students _plan_ on staying in Germany, however that is not what is actually happening. 41% of students abandon their studies before they have a degree. Out of the students that finish their degree, only 36% remain in Germany. Out of those remaining, more than half of them need more than 1 year(!) to land a job, indicating that they may not have the best grades or skills. Furthermore, many seem to assume that Germany somehow needs to offer this tax payer subsidized "free" university program to attract foreign students to fill shortages in the workforce. This is not the case. First, despite constant media reports saying otherwise, there is no major talent shortage expect in very few niches. Second, any EU-citizen (thats 600+ million people outside of Germany) can work in Germany without any permission required. Third, for non-EU citizens there already is a visa program (the "blue card") that allows them to work in the EU if they are qualified, e.g. have a Masters degree from their home country. In summary: German tax payers are asked to fund the education of foreigners at little to no return. Given the "free" nature of the program, it attracts rather unqualified students (or, lets say at least not the top notch). All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third-world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries.

rdtsc 10y ago
Wonder if they should have entrance exams to fix the issue? That might weed out the unqualified candidates.
- fbender 10y ago
  In many many cases, there are processes to assess a student's qualification. In general, if you don't have a German degree or did not reach a certain level, you will have to go through a vetting process – except for those studies were there are too little candidates to warrant a selection process.
yodsanklai 10y ago
> All this may sound harsh but it is simply not the job of German tax payers to provide some sort of indirect third world aid to middle/upper-class students from foreign countries. I'm not sure the marginal cost of an extra student is very high. They take a seat in a classroom and a few hours of teacher time to grade their work. Besides, they contribute to the German economy by living there. And even if they leave, they'll keep a fond memory for Germany and I'm sure that will somehow have a positive impact.

rodri_vera 10y ago

The article has many points that are not correct. I was a foreign student who did studienkolleg (preparatory university course), bachelor and master degrees in German in Bavaria. In total, I spent 6 years in their educational system. One thing to highlight is that German universities are very different to the American system of small groups, interaction with students, labs, hand-holding, etc. Traditional German education is one where you are not obliged to go to classes and you only have one final exam at the end of the semester. Some classes had up to 800 students. In other classes, we never got to see the professor and we were taught by a PhD student. Nobody knew your name and you were just another face, if you ever showed up to class. Thus, the marginal cost of having an additional local or foreign student is minimum. This system is not for everyone and given that my classes were all in German, it was very challenging. University-level German (vocabulary, idioms, etc) is very different from the one you learn at the Sprachkurs. Most foreign students dropped out and went back home. This is also accentuated by the fact that if you fail an exam 3 times, you are expelled from the university and you are banned from studying that study field for life across all German universities. Moreover, German universities do not have their own sport facilities and luxurious campuses as their American counterparts. Normally, for sports, there is a shared facility for all local universities and you pay an extra semester ticket to have access. The average German university has old facilities and no luxuries. Thus, the cost base is completely different to universities in the US. Back then, we were told that Germany offers education to foreigners to foster relations with foreign countries. If we foreigners study in Germany and are shaped the German way, once we go home, not only we will be well qualified, but also we will be keen to establish business relations with German companies. During my study times, around 2006, they introduced at my university fees for everyone. The idea was not popular and it was not covering the cost of education. The idea did not last long. Some years later it went back to be free for everyone. German universities are very left-leaning and in the German society there is a wide consensus that university education should be free for all. The CDU and FDP, two political parties on the right spectrum, constantly push the idea of charging foreign students to help finance public education, but the idea has never gotten any type of support in the society.

bisRepetita 10y ago

One argument, not made, is that it may help German students too. Having various nationalities at home expose them to other ways of thinking. And it increases their abilities to deal with them culturally later in life/business. I do find a parallel, at a completely different scale, with the strategy of Loh, the coach of the US high-school team for the Math Olympiads. An important part of his strategy is to invite his international opponents to train with his team. It is counter intuitive, but he says it makes his team better, and they're less scared of competition. They won twice in a row since. NYT article: https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-2016/ https://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/wordplay/2016/07/18/imo-201...

MarkMc 10y ago

I'm interested in setting up a small non-profit school for poor, young adults in Indonesia to teach them German and other skills necessary for admission to Studienkolleg (the one-year preparatory course for foreign students wishing to apply to a German university). The main goal is to get the student a good IT job in Germany within 5 or 6 years. In return, the student must commit to giving a percentage of his or her income back to the school, so the school can grow without requiring external donations. What does HN think of this plan? Is it achievable? If not, what is the most likely cause of failure? PS: If anyone knows a good lawyer in Indonesia for setting up a yayasan or obtaining KITAS please contact me - see profile.