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Was hard to get through the rhetoric and falsehoods like "When the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, the marginal cost of that electricity is essentially

Was hard to get through the rhetoric and falsehoods like "When the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, the marginal cost of that electricity is essentially free" I read on until "The natural gas that comes out of these wells is practically free" Then I had to give up because its obvious propaganda with no real interest in the truth. I am all for clean energy, but unfactual propaganda isnt good for anyone.

loeg 9y ago
> When the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, the marginal cost of that electricity is essentially free The marginal cost for additional GW is essentially free. The marginal cost totally ignores capital cost and just involves operational costs, which are (?)nothing for solar and (?)low for wind.
epistasis 9y ago
Could you explain why you think that's a misrepresentation? Why do you think "essentially free" marginal renewable cost is a falsehood? The difference between lettings the electrons flow and not letting the electrons flow on an installed plant is what, exactly? That's what's being referenced. Though there's lots of data to support the article, they do leave out the cost of extracting natural gas from the "practically free" wells. What is that cost? >unfactual propaganda isnt good for anyone. As I see it, the article's thrust is true. I'd love to be proven wrong though, with some facts, if you can provide them.
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- michaelt 9y ago
  Why do you think "essentially free" marginal renewable cost is a falsehood? Unless you can control the sun, the cost for one extra kilowatt of solar power is the cost of a 1kw solar panel?
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    That's the capital cost. You pay it up front and never again for the lifetime of the device. The marginal cost is the price of producing one extra kilowatt-hour on your already-purchased panel.
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sfifs 9y ago
Perhaps you misunderstood what marginal cost means. It is the cost of generating one additional unit of power on an already existing infrastructure. It takes expense to mine an additional ton of coal, transport it to a power plant, burn it and convert it into electricity even after the underlying infrastructure is setup. It doesn't for solar and wind.
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- Mendenhall 9y ago
  That falls under "rhetoric" the author takes a small unit of time "when sun is shining and wind is blowing" to then use the word "free". Thats cherry picking to the extreme and rhetoric 101. It is used to paint a picture that does not really exist. What happens to solar and wind when its night and the wind is still? By cherry picking and creating a scene which doesnt truly exist it paints a false picture of the efficiency of solar at this moment. Hence why I used "rhetoric". I could also say that is a falsehood in the practicle sense because of what it left out but that wasnt my original intention. My falsehood statement was to include the part about shale which since shale fields are limited its simply not true. We could further get into UV rays breakin down solar panels etc but that really wasnt my point. I dont expect people to see the rhetoric and falsehoods used in this article but it stood out to me like a sore thumb so I commented. Nor was I somehow saying save coal or coal is more efficient etc. It was only a comment on the rhetoric and falshoods I saw in a very short span of words.
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    I don't understand. If someone is giving out free balloons but only during certain hours, you shouldn't call it free?
    - Mendenhall 9y ago
      As rhetoric I would compare it more with "I will be giving everyone free balloons all day while supplies last!" and the supply is one balloon. Sounds great but reality is vastly different. Again though I dont expect everyone to see the rhetoric I see.

loeg 9y ago

> When the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, the marginal cost of that electricity is essentially free The marginal cost for additional GW is essentially free. The marginal cost totally ignores capital cost and just involves operational costs, which are (?)nothing for solar and (?)low for wind.

epistasis 9y ago

Could you explain why you think that's a misrepresentation? Why do you think "essentially free" marginal renewable cost is a falsehood? The difference between lettings the electrons flow and not letting the electrons flow on an installed plant is what, exactly? That's what's being referenced. Though there's lots of data to support the article, they do leave out the cost of extracting natural gas from the "practically free" wells. What is that cost? >unfactual propaganda isnt good for anyone. As I see it, the article's thrust is true. I'd love to be proven wrong though, with some facts, if you can provide them.

deleted 9y ago
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michaelt 9y ago
Why do you think "essentially free" marginal renewable cost is a falsehood? Unless you can control the sun, the cost for one extra kilowatt of solar power is the cost of a 1kw solar panel?
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  That's the capital cost. You pay it up front and never again for the lifetime of the device. The marginal cost is the price of producing one extra kilowatt-hour on your already-purchased panel.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

sfifs 9y ago

Perhaps you misunderstood what marginal cost means. It is the cost of generating one additional unit of power on an already existing infrastructure. It takes expense to mine an additional ton of coal, transport it to a power plant, burn it and convert it into electricity even after the underlying infrastructure is setup. It doesn't for solar and wind.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Mendenhall 9y ago
That falls under "rhetoric" the author takes a small unit of time "when sun is shining and wind is blowing" to then use the word "free". Thats cherry picking to the extreme and rhetoric 101. It is used to paint a picture that does not really exist. What happens to solar and wind when its night and the wind is still? By cherry picking and creating a scene which doesnt truly exist it paints a false picture of the efficiency of solar at this moment. Hence why I used "rhetoric". I could also say that is a falsehood in the practicle sense because of what it left out but that wasnt my original intention. My falsehood statement was to include the part about shale which since shale fields are limited its simply not true. We could further get into UV rays breakin down solar panels etc but that really wasnt my point. I dont expect people to see the rhetoric and falsehoods used in this article but it stood out to me like a sore thumb so I commented. Nor was I somehow saying save coal or coal is more efficient etc. It was only a comment on the rhetoric and falshoods I saw in a very short span of words.
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  I don't understand. If someone is giving out free balloons but only during certain hours, you shouldn't call it free?
  - Mendenhall 9y ago
    As rhetoric I would compare it more with "I will be giving everyone free balloons all day while supplies last!" and the supply is one balloon. Sounds great but reality is vastly different. Again though I dont expect everyone to see the rhetoric I see.