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> producing fresh vegetables doesn't [scale] The reason starchy and hydrogenated foods dominate is agricultural subsidies, not so much natural economies. If y

> producing fresh vegetables doesn't [scale] The reason starchy and hydrogenated foods dominate is agricultural subsidies, not so much natural economies. If you killed corn and soy subsidies a whole lot of junk food would disappear. Fritos are only cheaper than sauerkraut because you paid part of the frito bill when you filed taxes. Healthy fresh vegetables are most definitely mass produced. Running with the metaphor any way, government has a major role in perpetuating huge corporations and preventing the emergence of smaller ones. SarbOx is an obvious example. OSHA makes it very hard for a small group of guys to set up a manufacturing shop, even if they know how to make it safe. Read this guy on how it's basically illegal for him to run a small, traditional farm: http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp...

pg 19y ago
It's true that farmers of commodities like corn and wheat have the government wrapped around their fingers. But the reason they're big enough to do that is that their market scales. No one has invented a fresh carrot that can sit on a shelf for six months the way a candy bar can.
- kingkongrevenge 19y ago
  The subsidies follow the disproportionate voting power and political influence of the relevant mid-west states, not the inherent marketability of corn. Veggies and nuts are mostly grown at massive industrial operations in California with desert sunshine and irrigation systems. It's definitely a scalable operation not much different from corn and soy. Not to nit-pick, but carrots keep really well even at room temperature. That was the whole point of root cellars. Veggies store fine. Lots of "fresh" stuff at the store routinely comes out of 9 months in cold storage, and that's without the complex chemical processing and packaging applied to the junk food. Then there's freezing and pickling. The prevalence of crap in the US diet comes from a deliberate government plan to pump out more cheap calories. It might have made some sense in a Marshall plan world, but we're still stuck with it. That's the story as I understand it.
  - rms 19y ago
    >The prevalence of crap in the US diet comes from a deliberate government plan to pump out more cheap calories. It was deliberately done by the government? I probably shouldn't be surprised... I always assumed it was the corn farmers pushing for subsidies that did it. Do you have any more information on this?
    - kingkongrevenge 19y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz#Career http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz#Career > Butz revolutionized federal agricultural policy and reengineered many New Deal era farm support programs. His mantra to farmers was "get big or get out," and he urged farmers to plant commodity crops like corn "from fencerow to fencerow."
      - strey 19y ago
        I read the implication to be more along the lines of Butz being in the pockets of the agriculture corporations, not as a government method of feeding occupied countries.
  - akkartik 19y ago
    movie recommendation (and accidental pun on parent poster): King Corn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1112115 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1112115). Enlightening.
  - optimal 19y ago
    Another related movie (was on Sundance this past weekend): http://www.we-feed-the-world.at/en/film.htm http://www.we-feed-the-world.at/en/film.htm
    - Tichy 19y ago
      I didn't like that one very much, it seemed rather one-sided. For example, I thought it was bullshit to claim that Brazilian farmers are starving because other countries are buying all the soy beans. Clearly it is a political problem, otherwise Brazil would use the money it gets for the soy beans to buy other food for the farmers.
- geebee 19y ago
  I heard a radio show (I think it was NPR) about this recently. "Speciality Crops" don't get much in the way of government subsidy. What's a "specialty crop"? The general rule appears to bet that if it is a recognizable vegetable that would appear in it's natural form on your dinner table, it's a specialty crop. Interestingly, many of the nation's (and world's) specialty crops are either locally grown, or are shipped in from California. If it gets processed into something no longer recognizable as food, it's not a specialty crop, and is most likely getting subsidized. Ironically, the government recommended food pyramid is the inverse of government subsidies.
  - markdc 19y ago
    Only 1/3 of US ag is subsidized, but its a disgrace. The programs damage the environment, cheat consumers, and pay the wealthy. Off the top of my head, the major program crops are corn, wheat, soy beans, cotton (!), milk, peanuts, and sugar. More here: http://www.freetrade.org/node/609 http://www.freetrade.org/node/609 "in 2005, farms with average household incomes of $200,000 per year accounted for 9 percent of all farms but received 54 percent of government payments."

pg 19y ago

It's true that farmers of commodities like corn and wheat have the government wrapped around their fingers. But the reason they're big enough to do that is that their market scales. No one has invented a fresh carrot that can sit on a shelf for six months the way a candy bar can.

kingkongrevenge 19y ago
The subsidies follow the disproportionate voting power and political influence of the relevant mid-west states, not the inherent marketability of corn. Veggies and nuts are mostly grown at massive industrial operations in California with desert sunshine and irrigation systems. It's definitely a scalable operation not much different from corn and soy. Not to nit-pick, but carrots keep really well even at room temperature. That was the whole point of root cellars. Veggies store fine. Lots of "fresh" stuff at the store routinely comes out of 9 months in cold storage, and that's without the complex chemical processing and packaging applied to the junk food. Then there's freezing and pickling. The prevalence of crap in the US diet comes from a deliberate government plan to pump out more cheap calories. It might have made some sense in a Marshall plan world, but we're still stuck with it. That's the story as I understand it.
- rms 19y ago
  >The prevalence of crap in the US diet comes from a deliberate government plan to pump out more cheap calories. It was deliberately done by the government? I probably shouldn't be surprised... I always assumed it was the corn farmers pushing for subsidies that did it. Do you have any more information on this?
  - kingkongrevenge 19y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz#Career http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Butz#Career > Butz revolutionized federal agricultural policy and reengineered many New Deal era farm support programs. His mantra to farmers was "get big or get out," and he urged farmers to plant commodity crops like corn "from fencerow to fencerow."
    - strey 19y ago
      I read the implication to be more along the lines of Butz being in the pockets of the agriculture corporations, not as a government method of feeding occupied countries.
- akkartik 19y ago
  movie recommendation (and accidental pun on parent poster): King Corn (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1112115 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1112115). Enlightening.
- optimal 19y ago
  Another related movie (was on Sundance this past weekend): http://www.we-feed-the-world.at/en/film.htm http://www.we-feed-the-world.at/en/film.htm
  - Tichy 19y ago
    I didn't like that one very much, it seemed rather one-sided. For example, I thought it was bullshit to claim that Brazilian farmers are starving because other countries are buying all the soy beans. Clearly it is a political problem, otherwise Brazil would use the money it gets for the soy beans to buy other food for the farmers.
geebee 19y ago
I heard a radio show (I think it was NPR) about this recently. "Speciality Crops" don't get much in the way of government subsidy. What's a "specialty crop"? The general rule appears to bet that if it is a recognizable vegetable that would appear in it's natural form on your dinner table, it's a specialty crop. Interestingly, many of the nation's (and world's) specialty crops are either locally grown, or are shipped in from California. If it gets processed into something no longer recognizable as food, it's not a specialty crop, and is most likely getting subsidized. Ironically, the government recommended food pyramid is the inverse of government subsidies.
- markdc 19y ago
  Only 1/3 of US ag is subsidized, but its a disgrace. The programs damage the environment, cheat consumers, and pay the wealthy. Off the top of my head, the major program crops are corn, wheat, soy beans, cotton (!), milk, peanuts, and sugar. More here: http://www.freetrade.org/node/609 http://www.freetrade.org/node/609 "in 2005, farms with average household incomes of $200,000 per year accounted for 9 percent of all farms but received 54 percent of government payments."