16 ms·

Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

• ajhurliman 10y ago
  I truly feel awful for the family, but to play devil's advocate: What could you do if you were in Uber's position to prevent something like this? And no cop-out answers like "Don't make an environment that pressures people" (everyone has deadlines, pressure is ubiquitous). What, specifically, would you do tomorrow to prevent this in the future if you were the CEO of Uber?
  • drewbug01 10y ago
    > would you do tomorrow to prevent this in the future if you were the CEO of Uber? Resign, and recommend someone in my stead who is capable of managing a more compassionate organization into existence. Those exist - and conversely, the apparent shit-show that is Uber is driven from the top-down.
  • rhizome 10y ago
    Deadlines are guesses and predictions that are chosen by people.
  • thrillgore 10y ago
    >What could you do if you were in Uber's position to prevent something like this I would have resigned a loooong time before this.
• noway421 10y ago
  At this point one might ask, why have we not heard this stories before?
• siculars 10y ago
  My condolences to this persons family. May his memory be a blessing. Ever hear the saying "where there's smoke, there's fire"? At this point I'd really have to evaluate whether or not Uber is the right kind of fit for anyone to be working there. There are other options.
• joeblubaugh 10y ago
  Please know that if you are feeling hopeless, like you are a failure, and that there is no recovering, there are people who will help you. You are not your job or your accomplishments, you are worth it and there are people who love you and will help you. In the Bay Area, call (415) 781-0500 to talk with someone who can help. http://www.sfsuicide.org/ http://www.sfsuicide.org/
  • stephengillie 10y ago
    If you want to end things, walk away from your life and career. Stand up from your desk, put one foot in front of the other, and proceed in this way until you tire.
    • code_duck 10y ago
      It seems people are confused by this comment. My interpretation is that you mean what I've heard phrased as 'kill the person you are'. Meaning, if it's your life situations and identity that are causing you such distress, why not just walk away? This could mean switching careers, getting divorced, cutting ties with friends, moving far away, or a combination thereof. After all, suicide would end all of those things too, in a worse way. So if you were willing to do that most final and extreme action, why not just say screw it and start driving? After all you'd have nothing to lose compared to suicide. In some cases just the realization that one can make changes is significant.
      • stephengillie 10y ago
        The downvotes speak for themselves. This advice is too unclear to be helpful, and too general to be useful. Instead​ of giving general advice and feeling better, we should try to dig deeper, and resolve the actual problem. As far as the other person wants help, at least.
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      • cowpewter 10y ago
• hackits 10y ago
  Just remember there no point earning the mega $$$$ when you're going to put a bullet in a gun and shot yourself in the head because of the stress. Look after yourself first.
• fredsted 10y ago
  It's really mind-boggling this happened after less than 6 months at Uber. I wonder what it must be to work there. Sounds absolutely horrifying.
  • defined 10y ago
    It's not just Uber. There is no shortage of toxic workplaces, sadly.
    • brbrodude 10y ago
      Libertardians are always capable of worsening anything off a tidy bit, at least ;)
      • sctb 10y ago
        Please don't call names to start flamewars: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    • rhizome 10y ago
      Nobody's saying it's just Uber, but this post is about Uber.
  • jannettee 10y ago
    I know someone who left after 6 months for similar reasons, fortunately things didn't go as far for them as this poor man. I was warned off joining the company by that engineer and often think about how lucky I am to have dodged such a toxic place.
• codinghorror 10y ago
  This is so depressing. Shame on you, Uber.
• paradite 10y ago
  Meta but relevant: 57 points in 35 minutes with no heated debates in comments, but not top story, suggesting high number of flags by users if I remember correctly about HN ranking algorithm. Edit: Apparently this was a repost of the story, initially posted 15 hours ago (and 8 hours ago again): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372 Edit again: Now this submission has also been marked as dupe after 1 hour of front-page. Looks like mods don't really want this story to get too much attention.
  • noway421 10y ago
    As much as all the recent events seems to be targeted campaign, I wouldn't think it's unusual. This is probably the most heated topic in startups right now and I too myself upvoted the link after seeing it.
  • glogla 10y ago
    There seems to be a trend where anything negative against a major company (most often microsoft, apple and google) is flagged rather quickly. My guess is that they realise how important HN is for public perception by tech people and run PR teams here.
    • rhizome 10y ago
      Bots are run against everything else, no reason to think they aren't here.
      • dang 10y ago
        That theory doesn't fit the data. The overwhelming majority of flags are by users who vote and comment indistinguishably from everybody else. If they're bots, somebody should tell OpenAI.
        • paradite 10y ago
          I am very glad to know that HN has the necessary data to conduct such investigations and is doing so. Now I have much more confidence in HN. Also, it would be an interesting read if you could publish some of the findings as a post or something.
• handsomechad 10y ago
  This is kind of ridiculous. My condolences to the bereaved and all that, but come on. High-paying jobs can often times be extremely stressful, and whenever I have worked in a pressure cooker environment I have often found myself questioning whether or not it is worth it to continue working there. Sometimes, the answer has been no, at which point I figured out my exit strategy. What I have not found myself questioning is whether or not I should take my own life. Obviously, quitting is a much better solution than immediately jumping to suicide. Of course depression doesn't work logically like that, but unless he was being systematically bullied or hazed it seems completely unfair to blame the employer in a situation like this rather than his own psychological makeup. I'm not saying that an incident like this shouldn't be alarming and merit internal investigation and rethinking of cultural norms. Sure, and I'm sure they did that. But I don't think it's a good precedent for an employer to be held responsible every time an employee self-harms. They aren't your parents; it is after all "At Will" employment.
  • elvinyung 10y ago
    I know this doesn't completely address your comment, but the article mentions a Facebook message made by him: > “The sad thing is this place (Uber) has broken me to the point where I don’t have the strength to look for another job,” Thomas wrote.
    • boomzilla 10y ago
      Be frugal. Don't buy a house unless you have at least 6 months of payments in the bank. Don't buy a car if you need to take a loan. Save as much you can. Build and maintain a strong network outside work (family/friends/professional contacts). Every time I got into a difficult situation at work, I take a deep breath and tell myself: "Don't worry, give it your best shot to resolve this. And if that's not good enough, you know you can walk out that door and take a break for some time". It's been working well for me.
      • defined 10y ago
        It's well-meaning advice, but understand that, in situations like these, certain personality types don't think as rationally as you would expect. One size does not fit all when it comes to handling adversity.
• rustynails77 10y ago
  There's a lot of talk about fake news. Am I the only one who is noticing that Uber is being bullied a hell of a lot by the media? Don't get me wrong. Uber have some major faults. However, compared to other companies, are they really that bad? Under Marissa Mayer, Yahoo reportedly sacked most of their senior male staff and the media didn't even blink. That was one of those jaw-dropping things that the media collectively ignored and continues to ignore. We talk about media collusion. We talk about media integrity. I've got a strong feeling that there is some serious collusion going on against Uber. I have no vested interest in Uber. I do not defend anything Uber has done. I even posted a negative review of Uber based on my limited experience with them. I am simply asking if I am reading too much into potential industry-wide collusion by the media as I am seeing too many coincidences. I recently read about the media's secret jList - where the media supposedly don't collude, but, I keep on seeing themes across the media spring up out of nowhere. The negative focus on Uber might just be one more coincidence.
• elvinyung 10y ago
  X-posting my comment from the other post because I think it's worth discussing: > Uber denied the benefits claim through its insurance carrier. That seems like an extremely terrible move, even if Uber might be technically correct. Deciding to do that makes them look awful, and I think that's what matters most, given everything else contributing to their public image right now. It could have been a great opportunity to look magnanimous.
  • 65543543 10y ago
    They could've met halfway...but no, they had to do this. Despicable.
  • danso 10y ago
    I wonder if accepting such a claim also meant accepting that Thomas had faced an "extraordinary employment condition". That is, did the benefits claim come with an accusation that Uber was at fault? If so, then it's not just a consideration of "common decency", but legal liability. Note: IANAL and didn't even know what California law was in regards to insurance claims and suicide. Genuinely curious as to the technicalities of the law, and in this case specifically.
    • elvinyung 10y ago
      Good point! IANAL also, but I read a bit about this and got the following[1]: > Ultimately, the WCAB emphasized that it was the “work condition that must be uncommon, unusual, or totally unexpected” in order to qualify as an extraordinary employment condition So, I wonder if by rejecting the claim, Uber is claiming that whatever work conditions Thomas was facing is normal. I wonder if the converse is also true, that accepting the claim also means Uber claims that his work conditions were actually unusual. [1] http://pknwlaw.com/Newsletters/2015/Q1/2-LC3208.html http://pknwlaw.com/Newsletters/2015/Q1/2-LC3208.html
      • sjg007 10y ago
        I imagine this would. E evaluated by a judge and or a reasonable standard clause. We don't tolerate domestic abuse in the home so maybe those concepts extend to the workplace.
• 65543543 10y ago
  My heart goes out to the whole family. A while ago, a long long friend of mine suddenly messaged me out of the blue reminiscing on old times and stuff. I could sense something was amiss. I planned an impromptu trip to see him. I didn't bring anything up...we just chatted about the good old times, cracked a few inside jokes etc. He was visibly much better when I started back after a few days. We promised to be in touch but it kinda dwindled from there. He got back in touch again and this time told me that he was seriously contemplating the last ride and my trip made him change his mind.
  • abalone 10y ago
    Please encourage your friend to see a psychiatrist. It may save their life.
    • throwanem 10y ago
      Not that you're necessarily wrong, but you're not necessarily right, either. I've been in not too different a place, and I can say with some confidence that all the psychiatrists in the world don't add up to one good friend who cares. Look after those relationships, folks. Lose them and they're gone forever.
      • abalone 10y ago
        The parent comment noted they fell out of touch with their friend. As for your confident advice, that's only true for you. The Uber engineer who took his life had a loving family. Everyone having suicidal thoughts should be screened by a psychiatrist. Sometimes it takes medication and medication saves lives.
        • jankedeen 10y ago
          Medication is a problem unless you are sick. We all need confirmation and less pressure...are we sick because of that?
  • patrickdavey 10y ago
• throwaway75657 10y ago
  So what should you do if you find yourself in one of these situations and get let go? It gets really irritating having to explain what happened at the previous job in every interview.
  • searchfaster 10y ago
    Atleast AFAIK in Bayarea, nobody cares as long as you have the skills. I have had the pleasure of working with some amazing engineers & team players who were let go in earlier jobs.
    • Applejinx 10y ago
      Twice there you have re-sealed the trap. Oops. As an indie developer doing one sort of 'dream job' (distributing exceptional software for free and moving towards open source, supported entirely by voluntary small contributions like some DSP Bernie) it's pretty easy for me to see the catch. You can do anything you want IF you 'have the skills' and are 'amazing'. If you're not sufficiently amazing, then you're fooling yourself and might as well suicide (that's the feeling) because you're doomed anyhow. There is no one specific level of 'the skills' or 'amazing', it's a sort of sliding scale in which you can begin to lose simply because everyone around you took a level in 'amazing'. And everyone around you is incredibly driven and desperate… You can call this motivational and not be so far wrong, but there's a really dark side when society is set up to have harsh punishments for losing. Ain't no welfare T-Bone steaks for homeless people pooping in the streets of San Francisco. I can't help but feel that in the Bay Area, there's no clear floor you can drop to. You can be amazing… or you can be NOT amazing, and there might be a level of 'untouchable caste' to the NOT amazing. My own psychological method of fighting this (in my field there's definitely an element of 'abandon the losers before they saddle you with being associated with their fail') is to be defiant, claiming that I'm very poor but on an upward trajectory because I've seen the light of Open Source etc, that I am audaciously redefining what it means to be a dev/creator, and might decide to be always poor as dirt just to be defiant about it. It does keep me from suicide: finally committing to that POV made a noticeable difference. I think this attitude is echoed among other open-sourcers.
• jjjensen90 10y ago
  This was so difficult for me to read. I have struggled with extreme anxiety and chronic depression and brushed up against the thought of there being no way forward or out but suicide. During the closest calls, I was making the most I ever had, living in a nice house, etc. It didn't really matter though. I felt a tightness in my chest and a boiling kettle of acid in my stomach from the second I woke up until the second I fell into fitful sleep. I had a Pavlovian response to the sound of email arriving on my phone, to the point where it would be in my nightmares. But it was more than just work; irrational panic and anxiety filled everything facet of my life. I would nearly pass out from panic attacks when flying, or worry that the police I saw were going to arrest or harass me for an unknown crime, or think that any time my family was calling it would be tragic news. About three months after I most seriously considered suicide, I got a new job, saw a psychiatrist, saw a counselor, and a few years later I was pretty much stable. I did have to detox off benzos, but that wasn't too bad. It has to be understood that highly motivated, highly intelligent people can be driven to irrational levels of stress from their work. Unfortunately it isn't as easy as just reminding the person that they aren't their job or their career, just like you can't treat depression by telling a depressed person to turn their frown upside-down. This man may still have struggled with stress, anxiety, and depression even if he left Uber for somewhere healthier; what's important now is that people reading this story or these comments realise that there are always so many ways out, and that no matter what there are resources to keep you afloat.
  • throwaway8800 10y ago
    > I had a Pavlovian response to the sound of email arriving on my phone, to the point where it would be in my nightmares. I went through a rough period last summer where a project I was involved in was a complete disaster. I basically spent 24x7 terrified that a new "emergency" was going to roll in on my phone via email with a stakeholder telling me how this new issue was ruining their life and how disappointed they were; an issue which I was expected to deal with immediately. After that summer and to this day I keep my phone in "Do Not Disturb" mode 24x7 and treat it as a passive communications device that I only check when I want to, because I have literally run out of notification tones on my phone that don't send a burst of adrenaline through my body upon hearing them. This is even after that project is over. I feel like it permanently damaged my brain and my ability to deal with stress. I have used smartwatches that notify you when an email comes in by vibrating on your wrist. I view these as modern-day human "shock collars" where the shock collar beneficiary is actually not you, but your employer. I actually warn others against falling into that trap of wearing a "shock collar for work". Having your arm vibrate the moment an email comes in is not healthy.
• defined 10y ago
  This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic code monkey who is expected to do everything that is ordered, without question, and micromanaged to the point of insanity, while people in management positions make decisions - and then reverse them - that are so obviously wrong to any competent engineer that it makes Dilbert's PHB look like Einstein in comparison. This is not much of an exaggeration. This is bad enough for any regular human to endure, but take a skilled engineer who probably suffers from impostor syndrome and the upper end of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and it is a recipe for a breakdown and, quite possibly, suicide. Those who would glibly criticize such people for not going and getting another job, or just quitting, are out of touch with how badly one's confidence is damaged by that point; it would not be unreasonable to compare the psychology to that of abused spouses who don't leave their abusers. Also, I could not leave one of the jobs without losing my work visa and being deported (it was back in 2003 before visa portability). Maybe others are in situations that make it harder than expected to move on. My deepest empathy goes to this engineer, and to all others who suffer in this way, and to their families. We need to pay far more attention to the destruction that is done by quasi-sociopathic managers.
  • BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typically longer especially with a 3+ hour commute). I became severely burned out to the point where I didn't want to look for work or do much of anything. I was depressed and had severe anxiety. I went to the hospital with an anxiety attack so strong that I literally thought I was having a heart attack and was going to die in front of my two year old (I was trying to explain to her what to do if daddy passes out). My chest was in pain, my arm numb; I still don't understand how it wasn't a heart attack because of how intense it felt. I eventually took some time off and started interviewing at various places. Shortly after taking time off I was told that the founders felt I wasn't "working fast enough" and was fired. I had never been fired from a job before and I contest their reasoning but secretly felt incredible relief to the point where I barely even argued, I just packed up my stuff and left with a smile on my face. Now I'm working at a place with fantastic work life balance.
• Illniyar 10y ago
  I think we are missing some information here: "All suggested that he leave his job, but he was adamant that he could not. " The question is why? what conditions need to occur where a man who most likely can get another job easily enough and who has switched jobs before decides that ending his life his a better course of action then switching jobs. They wrote that he eventually saw a psychiatrist, was he prescribed SSRI medication (I.E. Prozac)? If so, the other articles on HN suggest that that may be the cause, and not Uber's work environment. All of that isn't to say to Uber's work environment is ok, but unless there was some form of coercion to keep the job (debt, noncompetitive wages, medical insurance issues), I don't think it's fare to blame Uber for the suicide. Mass worker exodus or a union is the way to change a company's work environment.
  • schneid3306 10y ago
    Getting a job "easily enough" is still a big risk to take when you own a home and have a wife and two kids. I was in a job that deteriorated to the point that it was making me so miserable I would get physically ill around 3-4pm on Sundays due to having to go to work on Monday. It took me about 5-7 months to get to the point where I quit. It is not an easy step to take. I was 24-25, enrolled in a Master's program (easy enough to explain why I left without a job) living in a house that I was not paying rent for and had the full support of both my parents and my fiancé. I didn't want to be a burden to my family. I was scared it would take me another 7 months to find a job like it did when I graduated from college in 2010. I had bills to pay. All of that was overwhelming despite me logically knowing I would be fine and that I wouldn't starve or go homeless or miss a bill payment because my fiancé or parents had stated so. I can only imagine the pressures he thought he faced at home if he felt like it was his responsibility to take care of his family. It was probably so overwhelming that he saw no other out. It is hard to describe to someone who never experienced a job that is overwhelmingly and exclusively awful how much of an impact it makes on you. And I am not talking about a job that you don't like or don't enjoy. I mean a job that has zero redeeming qualities and a culture that is incredibly toxic. You feel like a failure at work. You are miserable. And you see an out (quitting) but if you quit (without a job) there are a whole bunch of questions. And in some ways those unknowns are even worse than the misery. But then you go back in the next day and go "no way the prospect of losing my home can be worse than this." Then you go home and it is "no way my job can be worse than losing my home and failing my wife and kids." And it both cases you realize that, yes, somehow, both of those statements are true. The job is more miserable than losing the home which is more miserable than the job which is more miserable than letting down my wife and kids which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than... ... and suddenly you find yourself with a gun in the front seat of your car because there is nothing in life that is not miserable. Nothing.
• markbnj 10y ago
  I've never felt like he seems to have felt, so I can't put myself in his shoes. But my first thought on seeing the picture of his family at the top of that post was that trying to reverse-engineer whatever misery would cause a man to take that step, to leave his family that way, to do it in a way that was almost certain to force his wife or even, horribly, one of his kids to confront the results, is fruitless. Maybe someone with a deep professional understanding of the human mind would have some insight. "Uber did it" is a far too coarse answer imho.
• kfkhalili 10y ago
  Does anyone think that this culture of extreme competitiveness and "working hard" benefits employers before it reaches the employees?
  • sundvor 10y ago
    Surely, the question should be whether anyone thinks whether the reverse is the case: Do anyone actually think employees benefit from working themselves (to death..) before employers?
    • kfkhalili 10y ago
      My point exactly.
  • eeZah7Ux 10y ago
    It never reaches the employees.
  • brbrodude 10y ago
    That's the trick.
• siliconc0w 10y ago
  I wonder how much the equity handcuffs are to blame here.
• uladzislau 10y ago
  There're two critical ways out of the situation like this which looks like severe major depression to me - 1. remove yourself from the stressful situation 2. seek medical help. The worst in this situation is that the person is unable to clearly understand the severity of the situation and take an action so the role of friends and family becomes the critical one.
• vivekys 10y ago
  Its sad to see why smart people set themself for failure. Under bad situations at work all it takes is to go out the front door and not come back. Living a life where you're just trying to out-compete everybody or oneself is a trap. Best not to do that.
• abalone 10y ago
  I'll put this out there.. somone who has destigmatized and open sourced depression is Rob Delaney. Now has an award winning show featuring the late Carrie Fischer (Catastrophe) but nearly killed him self a few times in the past and has written extensively about it[1]. Alcoholism too. Psychiatric medication saved his life. REALLY funny guy, check him out on twitter (best reason to use twitter still). [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/comedy-545-v17n10 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/comedy-545-v17n10
• kirillzubovsky 10y ago
  It's amazing how a toxic work environment can dismantle an otherwise perfectly fine human in a matter of months. For anyone who is reading this thinking it can't, I've seen a number of friends get completely demotivated and numb due to the circumstances of their work. Luckily all ended up finding better jobs, but the PTSD was real and took everyone a long time to shake off. I can totally believe this guy was a great engineer too, as I've seen the work stress affect the best ones the most. The lazy and dumb can coast for months, speaking fancy words and pretending to be working, but really smart people actually want to deliver value and they grow tired and frustrated when they can't. Stress isn't talked about much in SV, as the focus is on growth and revenue, and it's a shame. You can't build a long-lasting company without good people.
  • defined 10y ago
    Totally concur.
• schneid3306 10y ago
  I stated something similar in a reply below, but I think it is worth repeating on its own... It is hard to describe to someone who never experienced a job that is overwhelmingly and exclusively awful how much of an impact it makes on you. And I am not talking about a job that you don't like or don't enjoy. I mean a job that has zero redeeming qualities and a culture that is incredibly toxic. You feel like a failure at work, but there is nothing you can do to improve or impress the higher ups. Nothing is good enough. Period. Managers are instructed not to give out performance reviews any higher than a 3/5 for their best performers because the company does not want to pay out bonuses. You can be outputting 44% of the work of a 13 person team and you are called out by your immediate supervisor because you had a word document open and "it was closed the next time I walked by. So you clearly are not working your full 8 hours a day." You have to handle the work of three, then four, then five people because everyone else seems to be getting hired elsewhere and quitting. And the company certainly isn't replacing them. (Cost savings, yay!) You aren't able to find a new job despite putting out dozens of feelers and going to a couple interviews a month, and getting to the final interview rounds for 3 or 4 jobs. Congratulations, you worthless POS. You cannot even get hired out of that company. Maybe you really are that awful of an employee. You are miserable. And you see an out (quitting) but if you quit (without a job) there are a whole bunch of questions. Will someone like you ever be able to find work again? If you can't find work over five months while you are employed, what makes you think you would stand out anymore if you were unemployed? And in some ways the unknowns caused by quitting are even worse than the misery. So, you go back in the next day and go "no way the prospect of losing my home can be worse than this." Then you go home and it is "no way my job can be worse than losing my home and failing my wife and kids." And in both cases you realize that, yes, somehow, both of those statements are true. The job is more miserable than losing the home which is more miserable than the job which is more miserable than letting down my wife and kids which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than losing my home which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than letting my family starve which is more miserable than my job... ...and suddenly you find yourself with a gun in the front seat of your car because there is nothing in life that is not miserable. Nothing. I was able to quit my toxic job. But if I was in a situation similar to that of Mr. Thomas, I can easily see why he thought he only had one option. And it is heartbreaking for his family.
• defined 10y ago
  I'd like to address the many comments that try to be helpful and offer advice, while expressing bemusement that the obvious step of just leaving and getting another job was apparently rejected in favor of suicide. Edward de Bono of Lateral Thinking fame wrote a book named "Po: Beyond Yes and No" [1]. While not the most catchy title, in the book he describes the process of forming patterns in the mind as analogous to pouring warm ink over jello. After a while, channels begin to form and the ink naturally starts to flow down the channels, deepening them. It's pretty obvious that (a) knowing you are stuck in a groove takes some insight and (b) breaking out of the thought patterns can be pretty challenging. De Bono also invented the L game. The interesting thing about this game is that it demonstrates very visually a flaw in human thinking: once you have started down a path in a decision tree and pruned off other possibilities, all your answers from that point onwards will be wrong if that path doesn't contain the right answer. Pretty obvious, but where the flaw comes in is that, unlike computers, humans don't tend to backtrack past a point of a belief that "this is axiomatic", and never reexamine it. I think that - and this is just IMHO - people who go on to commit suicide when there are other, obviously better solutions, are stuck deep down the wrong branch of a decision tree and incapable of reevaluating prior decisions. Offering rational advice to people in this position is futile; what's needed is to help them pour warm ink to form new channels. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Po-Beyond-Yes-Edward-Bono/dp/0140137823 https://www.amazon.com/Po-Beyond-Yes-Edward-Bono/dp/01401378...
  • Neliquat 10y ago
    Can you express any way to 'pour ink' in a literal sense? Or is this all just a fun game likening something breathtakingly complex, to 'ruts form'. It sounds distinctly like well meaning bullshit itself.
    • DanBC 10y ago
      > Can you express any way to 'pour ink' in a literal sense? Yes. You get a pot of liquid ink, and pour it. I'm not sure why this is confusing, or why you dislike the metaphor so much.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• NovaS1X 10y ago
  This article has resonated with me far more than I thought it would. I can't help but think that this is not just an Uber culture problem but a problem of culture in general. Hyper productivity is so in fashion and I don't think it's good for us. I spent a number of years in tech in Vancouver and during my time I went though a period of unconscious breakdown which ended up with me in the hospital with perimyocarditis (heart failure due to unknown reasons, ie: stress). After a number of years doing what I have aspired to do for what is really the majority of my conscious life, I ended up quitting my career and just leaving altogether. I met a girl, she was not from my country, and when she had to leave, I took the opportunity as an out from the life that I was living. At the same time, I began using photography as a way to explore my new city and as a creative outlet, as tech no longer was that outlet and became a source of stress. The interesting thing is, once I left tech and began to put my free time in to photography I got caught up in the same culture that I've been trying to leave. Managing Instagram, Facebook, 500px, Flickr, and YouTube profiles to garner my following. The constant idolization of " work work work" I see YouTubers and IGers tout. Constantly judging myself against other people. Always feeling like I'm not good enough yet or that I'm lacking in talent that other naturally have. Believing that I'm not living my life correctly in relation to the perceived 10xers around me. Chasing the illusion of the 1%. This article handed me an epiphany. I'm only taking the life I want to leave with me. Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a measurement of success?
  • bonesss 10y ago
    > Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a measurement of success? The ideals of Protestant Work Ethic have historically dominated north american culture, and provided a work-oriented definition of personal worth. Nose to the grind stone as the most salient measure of personal contribution... It's one of the reasons I believe that aggressive photography is so common from American, German, and Japanese tourists: it's a vacation-job to fill the days so that even vacation seems like needed production. Fevered work dreams do not a life make, and cameras quickly turn into filters to avoid experiencing things directly. And the bottom line is that we all need to learn to sit on the floor and play like a 2 year old, without filters and without external expectations.
• merricksb 10y ago
  Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372
  • abpavel 10y ago
    This thread had more points and comments than the previous two combined.
    • trustfundbaby 10y ago
      yeah very upsetting to see such a good discussion shut down just because its a dupe.
• tribby 10y ago
  tragic loss. I wonder what would happen if companies with high-stress environments employed on-site counselors. even if employees have outside help already, as mr. thomas did, it's very difficult -- for so many reasons -- to approach HR or consider a medical leave due to stress or mental illness. maybe creating a less daunting first step could help. in general, getting employers more proactively involved in asking how their employees are doing -- and if they need time off to heal -- could go a long way. at a certain point, an individual's motivation or willpower will not turn a situation like this one around, but outside intervention still might. how do we effectively intervene sooner?
  • DanBC 10y ago
    In the UK occupational health schemes have limited success, especially in companies that have stigmatising views of mental health.
    • tribby 10y ago
      that's unfortunate but I guess I'm not too surprised to hear it. I kind of wonder if it would be more effective in silicon valley where mental health problems are a bit less stigmatized through a kind of necessity; the most notable thing about the high school I attended in palo alto is its ongoing cluster suicide problem.
• diebir 10y ago
  Whatever's the cost, Uber should make it right for the guy's family.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• defined 10y ago
  Moderators: This thread has essentially disappeared, along with a great deal of very useful comments, because there are apparently duplicates of it. Never mind that this has more comments than the others. Instead of being near the top of HN, where I believe it deserves to be, it is gone. This is unwarranted, and merits serious consideration of merging the so-called dupe threads. Failure to do this will surely look rather suspicious, don't you think? Some people are already mentioning that it didn't rise in the ranks even after getting around 50 points in several minutes.
  • thesmallestcat 10y ago
    If you don't want HN's poorly designed algorithms or dang/sbct's whims to control your discussions/what you see on HN, I strongly encourage you to use http://hckrnews.com/ http://hckrnews.com/, where posts don't get disappeared.
    • defined 10y ago
      Thanks, didn't know about that one.
• trustfundbaby 10y ago
  Man, this really hit home. That guy's life could have been mine. I had this almost this same experience 2 years ago (we were at the job for the same length of time even, five months), and it led to a long period of depression for me. I didn't kill myself, but I have to tell you, I could see how someone could. In my circumstance I interviewed as a Senior Engineer, and got offered a Lead engineer position because apparently I had impressed everyone so much (this is important because later, they would claim I wasn't even good enough to be a senior engineer). I erroneously thought that I would get support and encouragement, I got none of those things. Worse still I was the only black engineer in the entire company at that location, which left me incredibly isolated during my work days, when things got really really rough. Essentially, 70 days into my tenure, despite 30 and 60 day reviews that seemed fine, my manager and architect of the codebase I worked on, decided I wasn't up to snuff, and essentially started a process of managing me out of the company. My manager was a very smart engineer but a world class jerk, so when I complained to HR about the unfairness, he was demoted so that both of us were now leads, but guess what? The Performance improvement process continued ... I got a new boss, but he just picked up where the other guy left off. The kicker? He worked in another city so he actually got feedback on my performance from guess who? my new peer, who clearly now had an axe to grind. Everything was downhill from there, everything I did was shit, everything. I remember going into work one day and my boss sending me an email that essentially said "you're not performing at lead engineer level, and you are not even at senior engineer level, if we're being honest", great morale boost. When I tried to ask for help (remember I'd never been a lead before) it was turned around as me trying to assign blame to other people. I had nobody to help me, and worse, I was the only black engineer at that location. I felt like and absolute failure everyday for 30 days (they had a 90 day introductory period, so they gave me an additional 30 days to "prove" myself, but in addition I had to agree to that Performance improvement plan, I mentioned earlier. At one point, I was barely sleeping, was super stressed out and anxious, even on weekends. I'd go into meetings with my new boss, and the old one (remember he's my peer now) with his superior knowledge of the code base (he built it) would throw me under the bus, claiming I wouldn't hit my dates, or that my estimates were wrong. Openly, in front of 7 or 8 people, and the new boss would tolerate it. To add to all this, I was on an h1b, and had left a job that was processing my green card to join this new company. So if I lost the job, I would be right back to square one with everything, and I'd have to find a job within 30 days. Throw that in the mix with being told everyday that I was crap, not having anyone at work to talk to about what was going on, being on a performance improvement plan and walking around totally humiliated wondering what everyone must think of the dumb black engineer who couldn't even hack it a couple of months. Anyway, the final straw came when I delivered my project pretty much on time, but my boss changed his tune from "poor performance" to "culture fit". I had known the game was rigged and I was just being managed out, but at that moment I knew it for a fact, and asked to be allowed to give 2 weeks notice, but spend the 2 weeks at home not working for the company, but looking for a job. They agreed to that, and I was gone. But that wasn't the end of that. turns out that at the end of that 2 weeks they had my h1b revoked (usually companies will let it sit a few weeks, especially if they know you're looking for work). This meant that when I landed a job 30 days later, my visa couldn't be transferred, and the company had to take back their offer, and move on. If not for an amazing lawyer who worked some black magic to get my green card 8 months later, (I had an approved i140 from an earlier job, but didn't realize the significance of that, turns out, its VERY significant). I really don't know what I would have done. Those 8 months were truly some dark times, I left the job in October, and let me tell you, being out of work over holidays is no joke, everyone is out making plans and traveling to see family, and there you are contemplating the epic shit your life has become, almost overnight. In addition to failing so badly at a job I desperately wanted to succeed in, I couldn't work for 8 months, and even worse, didn't know if I'd be allowed to stay in the country. I was pretty depressed, but I had a group of engineering friends that helped me keep my spirits up, and listened to my rants (no idea how they put up with it honestly), and I think the biggest thing was that a good friend of mine (pretty much my sister), got me into therapy. That was MASSIVE. If not for that ... who the fuck knows. So yeah ... I can totally see the cascade of events that lead to this mans death, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of horrible management, as was the case for me. I wouldn't be shocked to find that he was placed on a performance improvement plan, and just ... gave up. PS: I'm a bit of a fighter, I don't shirk from an argument, and I'll call bs when I see it. This has got me in trouble at a couple of places I've worked, but ironically, thats probably something that helped me power through the absolute disgrace of an experience that I went through. I could see how a more mild mannered person, especially a high achiever would just ... not. I mean, can you imagine having to explain to your wife and Children that you're on a performance improvement plan (which I'm almost 100% sure that this man was on). As a man that has to absolutely destroy you. I didn't even tell my parents and brothers what had happened for several months, I was just too ashamed.
• ensiferum 10y ago
  "For Zecole Thomas, mourning the loss of the husband she met in 11th grade, it was “baffling and confusing” to be denied workers’ compensation. “He had a great work ethic; he devoted his life to work,” she said. “I was sure they would reciprocate.”" How stupid are you if you're willing to sacrifice your life (literally) for work. Yeah... I'm sure your employer will recipocrate... (not)
• Zelmor 10y ago
  What I have found out over the years is that having roughly 4-6 months worth of living expenses in the bank (unblocked and accessible within 24 hours) alleviates stress. Figure out how many months worth of savings makes you feel comfortable, and have an 'oh shit' budget figured out for times of willing/unwilling unemployment. For example, I can cut my spendings by 40% in case of unemployment simply by cutting luxury items. That 2.5 kilograms of light roasted coffee each month, dining, massage and clothing expenses isn't all that necessary, and can be cut temporarily. So yeah, being able to quit and leave whenever I want and take 2-3 months of break does take off a lot of weight from one's shoulders. 40 hours a week with no overtime or on-call for me! I will not be the employee with the mad bonuses when the time comes for that, but I will also be the one not on medication/suicide watch/psychiatric aid. The company will have a stable workforce that is able to care an adequate amount for the company's well-being, and I will not spend my bonus on keeping my health intact. If you don't want to employ such a person, I don't want to work for you either. Easy as that. :^) So yeah, the essence of my comment, I would say, is that make sure you have financial get-away. You don't have to subscribe to the crazy USA way of overtime>money>health issues>expenses>overtime to compensate for expenses. Having a small vegetable garden also helps, or just caring for plants on your windowsill. Also, cats.
  • loftyal 10y ago
    Doesn't help when you have notice period of 2 months
    • thecatspaw 10y ago
      if you feel so shitty about work that you're getting suicidal im sure a doctor/psychologist will write you a doctors note for those 2 months
      • bamboozled 10y ago
        That note probably won't do much for your mental health if you _know_ what's on the other side of your break. I think the OPs advice is pretty sound, give yourself some options.
• dominotw 10y ago
  > turned down job at apple > was scared he'd lose his job at uber Seems like some sort of the cover up by the family to blame shift on work stress. What a sad waste of life. Rest in peace friend.
• throw2016 10y ago
  I think best to avoid some discussions. If only to avoid being confronted with the realization you know but try hard to avoid of a world where empathy is in short supply. Bad things happen but its how we respond that shines a ray of light through the darkness. It may gives others stuck in a similar situation a context. Sometimes we just have to stop and consider where we are as a collective. The sense of bleakness of an uncaring unfeeling world is devastating I think to even the most cynical amongst us. When money is put above everything what is left is this dehumanizing bleakness. And wealth for those who embrace it.
• olgeorge 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure Uber is responsible for global warming too. I mean yes, that's very sad, but let's be reasonable about it, uber is probably not the only intensive work place, and the guy was not the only one under pressure.
• divanvisagie 10y ago
  Anyone notice how quickly this got removed from the front page?
  • throwanem 10y ago
    It's still there as of this writing.
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• princetontiger 10y ago
  Get the hell out of SV. It's become a pressure cooker because of many, many reasons.
• amarant 10y ago
  I hate to be the asshole here but, this is (unusual as it may seem) not ubers fault. I get that the guy didn't like his job there, I probably wouldn't either, but there's this thing called "quiting", that he could've tried instead of suicide. As a software engineer I really doubt he didn't have any other options available. By that I mean I know for a fact he had a ton of other options available. sad story, but his suicide is his own damn mistake.
  • sctb 10y ago
    > I hate to be the asshole here but... This is a solid clue that you should reflect on whether you're about to violate the guidelines: > Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• ghughu 10y ago
  Free markets just means unregulated capitalism just means out-of-control companies ruining workers lives. This isn't unique to Uber.
  • cryptarch 10y ago
    That's not code and quite annoying because only the first ~24 chars are shown on mobile devices.
• brbrodude 10y ago
  Countries outside America have labor laws to prevent that kind of shit. You gave away yours. Edit: I`ve been through two burnouts while working remotely. Gave it up for good, happily working in my city and have freedom, dignity and respect now. It is a human need. Edit2: F*ck Uber.
• adolfaiken 10y ago
  an old story for uber :(
• throwawayosiu1 10y ago
  Throwaway as usual: Just last weekend (Friday), I thought I had reached my breaking point. I could not handle my job, my friends, my parents and my side idea to the point I convinced myself that the only solution to my problems was suicide. I went on to 4chan to ask for help on the quickest solution. The only reason I'm alive today is because Amazon does not have a quick shipping policy (what I ordered would have taken me over a week to receive). Now I'm taking one day at a time in the hope that I don't reach that situation again. I truly feel sad for both the Engineer and his family!
  • SmellTheGlove 10y ago
    Quit your job and work the rest out later. Ask your parents and friends for support. I'm a total stranger and I'd rather you not be dead, so imagine how the people that know you would feel. We have this problem in our American culture: If we're not careful, we begin to derive our self worth from our work. You can choose not to do that. Quit, and when you're ready to go back to work, work to live, not the other way around. Fuck it, take something menial for a bit that doesn't follow you home.
• botchagalupe 10y ago
  In Japan they have a name for this.. karōjisatsu.. It literally means suicide from work. I wrote about this about two years ago below. Our industry (IT) could be worse than others due to the different kind of stress it creates. Here's some work/research I have done on this. http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/ http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/ http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu-in-plain-english-burnout-is-killing-us-video/ http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu-in-plain-english-burnout... We have to band together and do something about this plague... @botchagalupe
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• sgt 10y ago
  This widow seems to be the same woman who was charged with leaving her kids in a hot car. The children were later released to the father. http://www.cbs46.com/story/19109920/police-mother-arrested-for-leaving-children-in-car http://www.cbs46.com/story/19109920/police-mother-arrested-f... Makes one wonder if Joseph's family life wasn't exactly conducive to stability.
  • magic_beans 10y ago
    No it doesn't make one wonder that.
  • metaphorm 10y ago
    makes me wonder why you're digging up the history of the dead man's family. you work for Uber?
• zappo2938 10y ago
  Mental health is often an issue that comes up on Hacker News. Perhaps, Y Combinator can contribute to the community yet further by providing research and services for mental health issues which plague the tech industry.
  • clint 10y ago
    It would be really great and important if HN would partner with Open Sourcing Mental Illness (OSMI): https://osmihelp.org/ https://osmihelp.org/
• jjm 10y ago
  All, Hear me out. The first thing you need to overcome is not your wallet, or your options, timing or any other thing. It is -- your mind. If you experience this level of pressure, quit. And then start looking. Do not be influenced that your boss is the boss of your life or your career for that matter. If you've got a family to take care of, quickly join a consulting firm. Worst case you'll have to travel some, but it buys you some mental time to start looking for another job. And it sure beats Hell. People WILL tell you to not quit but they won't know how much pressure your in. They don't need to know. Just quit and find a better place. Garden, paint, chill with your espresso, take up that book you never read, or that new lang you never used. Do something positive. You hold the power to fix this. Quit, and find a new Job. Do it for yourself, do it for your family, for your friends, do it for open source communities that you contribute to. There is always a way out, and don't let anyone make you think that the only way out is a tiny little door -- to hell. Because what they don't tell you is that the door is fake. Your already in hell. Bust down the walls of your mind and get out.
  • sandhundred 10y ago
    Can't afford to quit, thanks though. Work or die.
  • thesmallestcat 10y ago
    Tell that to somebody who has a family, or is paying child support/alimony. I'm sure their ex will sympathize that it's not about your wallet, but your mind.
    • ryandrake 10y ago
      Thank you, just quitting and crossing your fingers hoping you'll maybe get a new job at some point in the next 1-100 months is not an option for anyone with actual responsibilities.
      • jjm 10y ago
        So that is what you'd say... to this guy the day before he did what he did? uh... What responsibility is he addressing now? What money is he bringing in now? Exactly. Nothing.
• clint 10y ago
  Ed Finkler is doing great work with his non-profit Open Sourcing Mental Illness. They are currently looking for 2017 corporate sponsors, so please talk with your employers about it! It would also be a nice move of HN to help them out since this is a huge problem in the startup world!
  • thrillgore 10y ago
    Can we get a link for those who want to donate individually?
• jankedeen 10y ago
  Oh, yes. Strikes a chord. Work till you drop and not make any friends = disaster.
• pdimitar 10y ago
  To me this is a failure of Uber of course, but also of the guy's wife. She is supposed to be his best friend, life partner, and a lover. If she couldn't detect that her partner needed urgent help then I am afraid he didn't have the happiest marriage out there. Same goes for his family, how can they even claim they're his family if they never detected this? Therapists most of the time don't amount for anything. They put a suit and a tie, they are well-instructed how to fake confidence and never betray lack of understanding. Most of them are as cold as a brick wall and I am not at all surprised the therapist wasn't of any help. Toxic work places will always exist. Competitive "alpha" pricks who tell you that you must always work harder won't disappear from the gene pool anytime soon. We must learn to cope, or at best, avoid them. Failing that, we need a supportive partner and a family. If we don't even have that, then yes, people are committing suicides.
  • guiomie 10y ago
    I'm surprised this isn't getting downvoted to hell considering how insensitive this message is and how simple minded one has to be to blame such a tragedy on one person.
    • pdimitar 10y ago
      Maybe it's my very happy life with my wife; once I got together with her I finally started understanding how important a supportive partner is. One can't simply tell you "I love you" and not detect you're on the verge of a suicide. What arguments do you have against my points?
      • guiomie 10y ago
        I actually misread your first sentence, I thought you were blaming this fully on his wife. Who says his wife wasn't supportive as yours? There's really no argument to be made against someone who believes their spouse can feel and fix all their problems for them.
        • pdimitar 10y ago
• tempw 10y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112
• thrillgore 10y ago
  Every time I hear a story about Uber I seriously wonder if the employees and drivers should unionize. Presuming that even if there was some positive story to come out of Uber and that news editors know negative stories about Uber brings in clicks, when has anything positive regarding them come to light?
• szb 10y ago
  Unfortunately, I can't read this post yesterday. We are working a similar solution, which can detect and prevent similar situations at management level, plus gives more productivity based on healthy system (little bit coaching system). Every manager want a healthy system, don't want to circulate lot of people in the company day by day. So, I saw ton of different personalities and skills and every person need to know, where is the border really (is this the right place for me or what do I need to change? - like a coach). Manager's views are really subjective.. and therefore many times.. with wrong advisors.. going in the wrong way. I think, very important for the c-level, to identify similar problems and create actions. Nobody want to see similar things. The very stressful jobs.. mainly coming from other problems (I worked cxo position, c-level, board etc), eg. somebody stolen money, slacker in important position and lot of things. Identify the problems is very important. That is not so easy and very hard.. to find the right way, .. because every person needed different viewpoint, how to talk with that person. Plus I saw, the assertive communication solve many things (in large companies works well).
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]