9 ms·

Hey, I'm the author of the post. Happy to take questions, and keen to hear ideas about what else we might add.

by BenjaminTodd 9y ago

dibujante 9y ago
Will I ever be as ecstatic as that dog?
- Neliquat 9y ago
  Depends on the brand, and application, of vacuum cleaner.
janwillemb 9y ago
I like the article and bookmarked it for future reference, there's a lot of advice worth considering. One thing I'd like to point out, is that I don't like the way the "becoming a better person" is embedded in "how to be successful in any job". I do think strongly that it's the other way round: the job is only a part of me as a person, and doesn't define me. There are other values and people around me who are way more important than any job will ever be.
- BenjaminTodd 9y ago
  Thanks. We intended it as a reminder of that at the end. The rest of our guide covers some of these questions in earlier articles.
jbreckmckye 9y ago
Is it more satisfying to be good at a job one doesn't believe in, or mediocre in a job one cares about deeply?
- theparanoid 9y ago
  Considering how unhappy most PhD students are, mediocrity doesn't lead to happiness.
- BenjaminTodd 9y ago
  We think both personal fit and meaningfulness matter a lot for job satisfaction, so it would just come down to exactly how bad you are at the work, or how little you care about it :) https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction/ https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction/ If I had to choose though I'd go for being good at the job you don't believe in. At least that way you have a better chance to build career capital and go into something better later. https://80000hours.org/career-guide/personal-fit/ https://80000hours.org/career-guide/personal-fit/
hannob 9y ago
Given that the title contains "evidence-based" I was surprised how little evidence you offer. In many chapters only self-help books and alike are quoted and no scientific studies. Also... given the current state of psychology research even the points where you refer to research are probably quite weak. E.g. the whole field of positive psychology is... not exactly a prime example of robust evidence-based practice.
- BenjaminTodd 9y ago
  Hi hannob, we agree lots of the evidence is weak, and try to point that out during the post. We're trying to give an all-considered view of what makes sense to try, taking into account (i) strength of evidence (ii) upside (iii) cost of trying (iv) whether it makes sense to us, and so on. Note that most of the self-help books we recommend are written by academic experts in that area. We think it's usually more reasonable to go with their overall judgment calls rather than delving into individual studies ourselves, which are usually flawed (replication crisis etc.)
  - BenjaminTodd 9y ago
    I added a paragraph to the introduction to clarify.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
zerkten 9y ago
I haven't been able to get through all of the content, but do you touch on any of the following: * Changing field to apply skills in a different way. * Going back to school later in your career. * Moving from roles that have a stigma attached (a relatively pervasive one for tech is moving from "support" into a development or a product development role.) * Being successful and hitting a heck of a lot of the points on learning, saving money etc., but ultimately not being satisfied.
jonmb 9y ago
You're getting a lot of sarcastic replies here, but I found your article is full of good life advice that applies to more than just being successful in a job. I've already read a lot of the books your article linked to, and after applying the lessons to my own life, I know they are sound. The criticisms you are receiving about the article not being "evidence-based" is probably the most true in the sense that it may lead people to expect more scientific links and notes (which you do provide a decent amount in the Notes & References). So perhaps the title could have been better worded. However, I think you were going for something more practical that people can apply to their lives and you linked to additional resources (books and web sites) for people to dive deeper if they want. That's a good approach IMO.
literallycancer 9y ago
You only spend one sentence on telling people to exercise. That doesn't really help someone who has no idea how to start. There is a lot of evidence of the benefits of running and other activities too.
- BenjaminTodd 9y ago
  I'd like to find a better resource to link to. For now I've clarified that we cover advice on how to exercise more here: https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-try-out-this-list-of-ways-to-become-more-productive https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-...
jonathankoren 9y ago
How many people do you know, including yourself, vacuum themselves on a regular basis?
mattnewport 9y ago
The problem with much of this advice is that all the difficulty is in the implementation. Like telling somebody the way to be healthy is to eat well, get enough sleep and exercise: knowing that is not sufficient to implement it successfully in general. Knowing good habits to develop is much less than half the battle. I already have a pretty good idea what I should be doing, all the difficulty is in effective implementation. Progress is often two steps forward and one step back and dedicating time and other limited resources (money, willpower) to one area (e.g. health and fitness) can often conflict with progress in another area (e.g. time to work or socialize). Knowing good habits is a good place to start but I'm much more interested in actionable advice to effectively develop and sustain good habits.
- BenjaminTodd 9y ago
  We cover a ton of advice on that in this section: https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-try-out-this-list-of-ways-to-become-more-productive https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-...
  - mattnewport 9y ago
    That was actually the section I looked at most closely and suffers from the problem I'm describing. I've read getting things done, Zen to done, tried the pomodoro technique, read books on habit formation, tried apps like beeminder, habitRPG, etc. All of these have their merits but implementing them consistently is the whole problem, merely being aware of their existence is not sufficient.
    - BenjaminTodd 9y ago
      There is a chicken and egg problem - if you don't have the motivation to apply motivation techniques, then it's hard to get started. One of former staff members got out of this rut by using commitment techniques. https://80000hours.org/2013/04/increase-your-productivity-to-boost-your-impact/ https://80000hours.org/2013/04/increase-your-productivity-to... (And click through to the next post) You might also find The Motivation Hacker by Nick Winter a good, quick summary.
tim333 9y ago
Hi Benjamin. I'm curious about how you found the move from Oxford to SV. Was it good? I'm a Brit considering moving.
lucb1e 9y ago
Do you truly think a nuclear physicist with five patents on his name and a thousand citations is N times more productive than the farmer that provides this physicist with food? I too am someone who does work that helps us improve in the long run, I don't put the literal bread on anyone's table. (I hope that saying translates from Dutch.) So I don't identify as someone doing the hard work while scientists do "the important work", but I do think everyone's work is important. In terms of wages, I have trouble with the idea of farmers that earn less than me while working more hours and taking more risks in terms of job security and physical safety, but there's little I can do at the moment. To make sure you get what I'm referring to, this is what I'm talking about: > The world’s ten largest urban economic regions hold only 6.5% of the world’s population, but account for 57% of patented innovations, 53% of the most cited scientists and 43% of economic output. That means the people in these regions are about eight times more productive than the average person. More productive on some narrow measure. What a snobby statement.
- losvedir 9y ago
  He's referring to this concept from economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity.
  - lucb1e 9y ago
    First line of the article: > Productivity describes various measures of the efficiency of production. I don't see how that is specific to patents and citations per capita.
jonathanstrange 9y ago
It's true that in many areas of modern work life higher and higher productivity is demanded in order to save costs and that in many regions of the world people determine social status and even self-esteem to a large extent on the basis of how high the salary is, but one might question whether these trends are really commendable. So I have no trouble with your advice, except that it seems to reinforce some already wrong priorities. Many if not most people work too much anyway, not by their own choice, but because they are underpaid and the capital tends to move to places where it already has been accumulated (and wealth is mostly inherited). Giving those people tips to become more productive and increase their chances of 'professional success' is a bit pervert.

Hey, I'm the author of the post. Happy to take questions, and keen to hear ideas about what else we might add.

dibujante 9y ago

Will I ever be as ecstatic as that dog?

Neliquat 9y ago
Depends on the brand, and application, of vacuum cleaner.

janwillemb 9y ago

I like the article and bookmarked it for future reference, there's a lot of advice worth considering. One thing I'd like to point out, is that I don't like the way the "becoming a better person" is embedded in "how to be successful in any job". I do think strongly that it's the other way round: the job is only a part of me as a person, and doesn't define me. There are other values and people around me who are way more important than any job will ever be.

BenjaminTodd 9y ago
Thanks. We intended it as a reminder of that at the end. The rest of our guide covers some of these questions in earlier articles.

jbreckmckye 9y ago

Is it more satisfying to be good at a job one doesn't believe in, or mediocre in a job one cares about deeply?

theparanoid 9y ago
Considering how unhappy most PhD students are, mediocrity doesn't lead to happiness.
BenjaminTodd 9y ago
We think both personal fit and meaningfulness matter a lot for job satisfaction, so it would just come down to exactly how bad you are at the work, or how little you care about it :) https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction/ https://80000hours.org/career-guide/job-satisfaction/ If I had to choose though I'd go for being good at the job you don't believe in. At least that way you have a better chance to build career capital and go into something better later. https://80000hours.org/career-guide/personal-fit/ https://80000hours.org/career-guide/personal-fit/

hannob 9y ago

Given that the title contains "evidence-based" I was surprised how little evidence you offer. In many chapters only self-help books and alike are quoted and no scientific studies. Also... given the current state of psychology research even the points where you refer to research are probably quite weak. E.g. the whole field of positive psychology is... not exactly a prime example of robust evidence-based practice.

BenjaminTodd 9y ago
Hi hannob, we agree lots of the evidence is weak, and try to point that out during the post. We're trying to give an all-considered view of what makes sense to try, taking into account (i) strength of evidence (ii) upside (iii) cost of trying (iv) whether it makes sense to us, and so on. Note that most of the self-help books we recommend are written by academic experts in that area. We think it's usually more reasonable to go with their overall judgment calls rather than delving into individual studies ourselves, which are usually flawed (replication crisis etc.)
- BenjaminTodd 9y ago
  I added a paragraph to the introduction to clarify.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

zerkten 9y ago

I haven't been able to get through all of the content, but do you touch on any of the following: * Changing field to apply skills in a different way. * Going back to school later in your career. * Moving from roles that have a stigma attached (a relatively pervasive one for tech is moving from "support" into a development or a product development role.) * Being successful and hitting a heck of a lot of the points on learning, saving money etc., but ultimately not being satisfied.

jonmb 9y ago

You're getting a lot of sarcastic replies here, but I found your article is full of good life advice that applies to more than just being successful in a job. I've already read a lot of the books your article linked to, and after applying the lessons to my own life, I know they are sound. The criticisms you are receiving about the article not being "evidence-based" is probably the most true in the sense that it may lead people to expect more scientific links and notes (which you do provide a decent amount in the Notes & References). So perhaps the title could have been better worded. However, I think you were going for something more practical that people can apply to their lives and you linked to additional resources (books and web sites) for people to dive deeper if they want. That's a good approach IMO.

literallycancer 9y ago

You only spend one sentence on telling people to exercise. That doesn't really help someone who has no idea how to start. There is a lot of evidence of the benefits of running and other activities too.

BenjaminTodd 9y ago
I'd like to find a better resource to link to. For now I've clarified that we cover advice on how to exercise more here: https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-try-out-this-list-of-ways-to-become-more-productive https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-...

jonathankoren 9y ago

How many people do you know, including yourself, vacuum themselves on a regular basis?

mattnewport 9y ago

The problem with much of this advice is that all the difficulty is in the implementation. Like telling somebody the way to be healthy is to eat well, get enough sleep and exercise: knowing that is not sufficient to implement it successfully in general. Knowing good habits to develop is much less than half the battle. I already have a pretty good idea what I should be doing, all the difficulty is in effective implementation. Progress is often two steps forward and one step back and dedicating time and other limited resources (money, willpower) to one area (e.g. health and fitness) can often conflict with progress in another area (e.g. time to work or socialize). Knowing good habits is a good place to start but I'm much more interested in actionable advice to effectively develop and sustain good habits.

BenjaminTodd 9y ago
We cover a ton of advice on that in this section: https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-try-out-this-list-of-ways-to-become-more-productive https://80000hours.org/career-guide/how-to-be-successful/#9-...
- mattnewport 9y ago
  That was actually the section I looked at most closely and suffers from the problem I'm describing. I've read getting things done, Zen to done, tried the pomodoro technique, read books on habit formation, tried apps like beeminder, habitRPG, etc. All of these have their merits but implementing them consistently is the whole problem, merely being aware of their existence is not sufficient.
  - BenjaminTodd 9y ago
    There is a chicken and egg problem - if you don't have the motivation to apply motivation techniques, then it's hard to get started. One of former staff members got out of this rut by using commitment techniques. https://80000hours.org/2013/04/increase-your-productivity-to-boost-your-impact/ https://80000hours.org/2013/04/increase-your-productivity-to... (And click through to the next post) You might also find The Motivation Hacker by Nick Winter a good, quick summary.

tim333 9y ago

Hi Benjamin. I'm curious about how you found the move from Oxford to SV. Was it good? I'm a Brit considering moving.

lucb1e 9y ago

Do you truly think a nuclear physicist with five patents on his name and a thousand citations is N times more productive than the farmer that provides this physicist with food? I too am someone who does work that helps us improve in the long run, I don't put the literal bread on anyone's table. (I hope that saying translates from Dutch.) So I don't identify as someone doing the hard work while scientists do "the important work", but I do think everyone's work is important. In terms of wages, I have trouble with the idea of farmers that earn less than me while working more hours and taking more risks in terms of job security and physical safety, but there's little I can do at the moment. To make sure you get what I'm referring to, this is what I'm talking about: > The world’s ten largest urban economic regions hold only 6.5% of the world’s population, but account for 57% of patented innovations, 53% of the most cited scientists and 43% of economic output. That means the people in these regions are about eight times more productive than the average person. More productive on some narrow measure. What a snobby statement.

losvedir 9y ago
He's referring to this concept from economics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity.
- lucb1e 9y ago
  First line of the article: > Productivity describes various measures of the efficiency of production. I don't see how that is specific to patents and citations per capita.

jonathanstrange 9y ago

It's true that in many areas of modern work life higher and higher productivity is demanded in order to save costs and that in many regions of the world people determine social status and even self-esteem to a large extent on the basis of how high the salary is, but one might question whether these trends are really commendable. So I have no trouble with your advice, except that it seems to reinforce some already wrong priorities. Many if not most people work too much anyway, not by their own choice, but because they are underpaid and the capital tends to move to places where it already has been accumulated (and wealth is mostly inherited). Giving those people tips to become more productive and increase their chances of 'professional success' is a bit pervert.