8 ms·

Regardless of why the stories are coming out, can we stop directing away from them? We've got a big bad wolf on the hook, why let them off? There is no reason a

by adjkant 10y ago

Regardless of why the stories are coming out, can we stop directing away from them? We've got a big bad wolf on the hook, why let them off? There is no reason anyone should be supporting them at this point unless you're acknowledging you don't care about all of the stories. Other companies potentially being as bad (which I think people are really overplaying) is not reason to make excuses for them, as stated in other threads here.

ancarda 10y ago
I'm starting to get very skeptical to be honest. I tried to read that article looking for some hard evidence, one link went to BuzzFeed, where that linked to Forbes. I'm finding it hard to get more information. In the wake of fake news, I'm asking for links, and not to other news sources. How do we know all this dirt isn't coming from Lyft? They're certainly going to benefit from this. I read through the documentcloud link, Uber collects a lot of data, is honestly all I can see. I feel like I've missed something important, but I'm reading on my phone so I couldn't really search or read properly. Could you help me understand? (For the record, I don't use Uber or any ride-sharing platform and I don't have any stocks/shares. I have no incentive to watch them succeed or fail.)
- lostboys67 10y ago
  It is lack of proper supervision of sensitive data that's the issue. I know the in the UK team leaders and those with access to data on the phone network have to be PV vetted - that the same as TS clearance in the USA. After all you don't want some one looking up the queens private number or details of GCHQ's private circuits.
- djrogers 10y ago
  At this point it's not 'hard evidence', but it is testimony from the guy who claims to have been responsible for cleaning up after evidence was destroyed or cut off during raids. That's pretty damning, and worth a look...
  - irixusr 10y ago
    The testimony of a guy under oath no less. And a testimony consistent with a pattern of illegal behavior that surely warrants a deep (criminal?) investigation with discovery.
    - fstuff 10y ago
      He's not just a guy. He was the director of infosec and was the direct report to the CSO
- wauzars 10y ago
  As sketchy as it may sound, BuzzFeed has a legitimate journalism arm: BuzzFeed News.
- amelius 10y ago
  > In the wake of fake news, I'm asking for links, and not to other news sources. What do you mean? In the end, news sources are by definition where we get information from. A blogger is also a news source. So is someone posting on facebook/twitter.
  - johnnyfaehell 10y ago
    I assume there referencing the fake news craze issue hitting the internet. This is where people create websites just to post one fake news story that is completely false. Annoying people now use it for anything published on a website or anything a newspaper prints they disagree with.
    - Ajedi32 10y ago
      The problem is that sometimes a fake news article gets picked by a more reputable outlet and disseminated to other news sites from there. Unless an article cites their sources, it's sometimes difficult to be sure whether they're reporting something based on their own investigation into the matter, or whether they're just regurgitating something they saw in another article.
    - euyyn 10y ago
      Well, what does OP want those links to point to? Uber's internal network?
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > In the wake of fake news Well, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, the third time it might be enemy action, but a constant stream of mischief and abuse stories coming for the past few years... that's just how Uber rolls. The company should have been put down long ago, but now it's a good time too.
  - mbel 10y ago
    > but a constant stream of mischief and abuse stories coming for the past few years... that's just how Uber rolls So if some piece of information is repeated enough times it is definitely true? I don't want to defend Uber here, I just think that your reasoning in this sentence is flawed.
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      I didn't mean repeating the same piece of information, I meant that each story was about some new mischief. Tax issues, employee vs contractor, operating illegally, price changes, uninsured drivers, spying on journalists, threatening journalists, sabotaging competition... that's just few old stories off the top of my head.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
      >In the U.S. alone, the company is involved in 173 lawsuits http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-dont-buy-into-uber-myths http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-dont-b... They've even got a wikipedia page dedicated just to their legal problems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_protests_and_legal_actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_protests_and_legal_action... At a certain point I think we should probably accept that it's not a great company.
      - bmelton 10y ago
        Not trying to defend Uber here, but no individual legal allegation is proof of guilt. Mathematically, if every allegation holds zero proof of guilt, then in aggregate, even 173 allegations sum to zero proof of guilt. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14123332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14123332
- snarf 10y ago
  So "Hell" was the name of their program for tracking Lyft drivers, and "Heaven" or "God View" was the name of their program for tracking Uber passengers. The allegations of Uber employees abusing the privacy of individual passengers using God View go back to at least 2014, so this actually isn't anything new, just more specifics about who they were spying on. See here for a screenshot of their God View emailed to a journalist without her permission: https://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-investigating-its-top-new-york-executive-for-privacy https://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-investigating... And see here for their cute Dr. Evil mascot that's part of their God View, which doesn't seem so funny any more: https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/19/uber-godview-tracking/ https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/19/uber-godview-tracking/
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - bpicolo 10y ago
    > See here for a screenshot of their God View emailed to a journalist without her permission That screenshot doesn't really have anything bad in it, to be fair. It's a view of their cars in the city.
    - bonzini 10y ago
      No, it shows the last two weeks of Uber activity for the journalist: https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-11/18/22/enhanced/webdr12/longform-original-5450-1416369283-9.png?output-format=auto&output-quality=auto https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-11/18/2...
      - bpicolo 10y ago
        Ah, sure. Is the complaint that they make that readily available to some set of people? It'd be silly to not expect them to have rider history in general
        celticninja 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- chetanahuja 10y ago
  "I'm starting to get very skeptical to be honest. I tried to read that article looking for some hard evidence, one link went to BuzzFeed, where that linked to Forbes. I'm finding it hard to get more information." (Edit: the fact that you did know about documentcloud link and relegate it's mention to the third paragraph of your comment is not very convincing about your quest for truth) WTF are you talking about? The first external link in the body of the article is to the sworn testimony of the whistle-blower in question https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3227535-Spangenberg-Declaration.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3227535-Spangenberg-...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
67726e 10y ago
I don't care about all of the stories, especially when half of them are hearsay.
arijun 10y ago
Just out of curiosity, did you have the same sentiment after the DNC leaks?
- RodericDay 10y ago
  I did.
stupidhn 10y ago
>why let them off? Too many people here directly or indirectly dependent on the ecosystem.
- ninv 10y ago
  Let's not find the cure of Cancer because "Too many people here directly or indirectly dependent on the ecosystem." Flawed argument.
  - Tenhundfeld 10y ago
    I don't think stupidhn is advancing that logic as an argument for why Uber should be let off. I think they're saying that many people on HN are part of the (disruptive, gig-economy, resource-sharing) startup ecosystem and would be adversely affected by Uber failing, directly or indirectly; so they are either choosing to let them off or subconsciously predisposed to support Uber. It's basically the same as the famous Upton Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” I'm not saying I agree with the point, but my interpretation is different from yours. To your point, it is somewhat similar to saying, "Why haven't we found a cure for cancer? Because too many oncologists are dependent on the cancer treatment ecosystem." It's not exactly the same, for many reasons, but there is a similar line of possibly-specious reasoning.
  - 67726e 10y ago
    Oh, yeah, I forgot that time Uber killed my grandmother and almost killed my aunt. This changes everything. Great comparison!
23443463453 10y ago
I think the unspoken fear is that bringing down Uber means pulling a big card out from the house of cards. The money that has been pumped into Uber simply on hopes and dreams of a utopian vision of autonomous cars all controlled and operated by Uber and the schizophrenic valuations would have to face their day of reckoning if Uber is even just slightly acknowledged as being rotten. The emperor does in fact have the most wonderful clothes on indeed, because we all agree he does.
stagbeetle 10y ago
Here's a point of view that is more in-line with what the everyday man thinks (which just so happens to be my view): >"Who cares? I'm using Uber because it's convenient and has more coverage than Lyft." > Yes, but what about all of the shady things that Uber has been doing? >"What things? If they've done things, I haven't heard of them nor does it seem like it affects me in anyway." > You don't care that a company is being shady, sexually harasses its employees, tracks it users... ad nausem? >"No, it's not something that's important to me."
Cub3 10y ago
They are the only ride sharing solution currently in Australia

by adjkant 10y ago

ancarda 10y ago

I'm starting to get very skeptical to be honest. I tried to read that article looking for some hard evidence, one link went to BuzzFeed, where that linked to Forbes. I'm finding it hard to get more information. In the wake of fake news, I'm asking for links, and not to other news sources. How do we know all this dirt isn't coming from Lyft? They're certainly going to benefit from this. I read through the documentcloud link, Uber collects a lot of data, is honestly all I can see. I feel like I've missed something important, but I'm reading on my phone so I couldn't really search or read properly. Could you help me understand? (For the record, I don't use Uber or any ride-sharing platform and I don't have any stocks/shares. I have no incentive to watch them succeed or fail.)

lostboys67 10y ago
It is lack of proper supervision of sensitive data that's the issue. I know the in the UK team leaders and those with access to data on the phone network have to be PV vetted - that the same as TS clearance in the USA. After all you don't want some one looking up the queens private number or details of GCHQ's private circuits.
djrogers 10y ago
At this point it's not 'hard evidence', but it is testimony from the guy who claims to have been responsible for cleaning up after evidence was destroyed or cut off during raids. That's pretty damning, and worth a look...
- irixusr 10y ago
  The testimony of a guy under oath no less. And a testimony consistent with a pattern of illegal behavior that surely warrants a deep (criminal?) investigation with discovery.
  - fstuff 10y ago
    He's not just a guy. He was the director of infosec and was the direct report to the CSO
wauzars 10y ago
As sketchy as it may sound, BuzzFeed has a legitimate journalism arm: BuzzFeed News.
amelius 10y ago
> In the wake of fake news, I'm asking for links, and not to other news sources. What do you mean? In the end, news sources are by definition where we get information from. A blogger is also a news source. So is someone posting on facebook/twitter.
- johnnyfaehell 10y ago
  I assume there referencing the fake news craze issue hitting the internet. This is where people create websites just to post one fake news story that is completely false. Annoying people now use it for anything published on a website or anything a newspaper prints they disagree with.
  - Ajedi32 10y ago
    The problem is that sometimes a fake news article gets picked by a more reputable outlet and disseminated to other news sites from there. Unless an article cites their sources, it's sometimes difficult to be sure whether they're reporting something based on their own investigation into the matter, or whether they're just regurgitating something they saw in another article.
  - euyyn 10y ago
    Well, what does OP want those links to point to? Uber's internal network?
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> In the wake of fake news Well, once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, the third time it might be enemy action, but a constant stream of mischief and abuse stories coming for the past few years... that's just how Uber rolls. The company should have been put down long ago, but now it's a good time too.
- mbel 10y ago
  > but a constant stream of mischief and abuse stories coming for the past few years... that's just how Uber rolls So if some piece of information is repeated enough times it is definitely true? I don't want to defend Uber here, I just think that your reasoning in this sentence is flawed.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    I didn't mean repeating the same piece of information, I meant that each story was about some new mischief. Tax issues, employee vs contractor, operating illegally, price changes, uninsured drivers, spying on journalists, threatening journalists, sabotaging competition... that's just few old stories off the top of my head.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 10y ago
    >In the U.S. alone, the company is involved in 173 lawsuits http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-dont-buy-into-uber-myths http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-dont-b... They've even got a wikipedia page dedicated just to their legal problems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_protests_and_legal_actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uber_protests_and_legal_action... At a certain point I think we should probably accept that it's not a great company.
    - bmelton 10y ago
      Not trying to defend Uber here, but no individual legal allegation is proof of guilt. Mathematically, if every allegation holds zero proof of guilt, then in aggregate, even 173 allegations sum to zero proof of guilt. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14123332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14123332
snarf 10y ago
So "Hell" was the name of their program for tracking Lyft drivers, and "Heaven" or "God View" was the name of their program for tracking Uber passengers. The allegations of Uber employees abusing the privacy of individual passengers using God View go back to at least 2014, so this actually isn't anything new, just more specifics about who they were spying on. See here for a screenshot of their God View emailed to a journalist without her permission: https://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-investigating-its-top-new-york-executive-for-privacy https://www.buzzfeed.com/johanabhuiyan/uber-is-investigating... And see here for their cute Dr. Evil mascot that's part of their God View, which doesn't seem so funny any more: https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/19/uber-godview-tracking/ https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/19/uber-godview-tracking/
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- bpicolo 10y ago
  > See here for a screenshot of their God View emailed to a journalist without her permission That screenshot doesn't really have anything bad in it, to be fair. It's a view of their cars in the city.
  - bonzini 10y ago
    No, it shows the last two weeks of Uber activity for the journalist: https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-11/18/22/enhanced/webdr12/longform-original-5450-1416369283-9.png?output-format=auto&output-quality=auto https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-11/18/2...
    - bpicolo 10y ago
      Ah, sure. Is the complaint that they make that readily available to some set of people? It'd be silly to not expect them to have rider history in general
      - celticninja 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
chetanahuja 10y ago
"I'm starting to get very skeptical to be honest. I tried to read that article looking for some hard evidence, one link went to BuzzFeed, where that linked to Forbes. I'm finding it hard to get more information." (Edit: the fact that you did know about documentcloud link and relegate it's mention to the third paragraph of your comment is not very convincing about your quest for truth) WTF are you talking about? The first external link in the body of the article is to the sworn testimony of the whistle-blower in question https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3227535-Spangenberg-Declaration.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3227535-Spangenberg-...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

67726e 10y ago

I don't care about all of the stories, especially when half of them are hearsay.

arijun 10y ago

Just out of curiosity, did you have the same sentiment after the DNC leaks?

RodericDay 10y ago
I did.

stupidhn 10y ago

>why let them off? Too many people here directly or indirectly dependent on the ecosystem.

ninv 10y ago
Let's not find the cure of Cancer because "Too many people here directly or indirectly dependent on the ecosystem." Flawed argument.
- Tenhundfeld 10y ago
  I don't think stupidhn is advancing that logic as an argument for why Uber should be let off. I think they're saying that many people on HN are part of the (disruptive, gig-economy, resource-sharing) startup ecosystem and would be adversely affected by Uber failing, directly or indirectly; so they are either choosing to let them off or subconsciously predisposed to support Uber. It's basically the same as the famous Upton Sinclair quote: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” I'm not saying I agree with the point, but my interpretation is different from yours. To your point, it is somewhat similar to saying, "Why haven't we found a cure for cancer? Because too many oncologists are dependent on the cancer treatment ecosystem." It's not exactly the same, for many reasons, but there is a similar line of possibly-specious reasoning.
- 67726e 10y ago
  Oh, yeah, I forgot that time Uber killed my grandmother and almost killed my aunt. This changes everything. Great comparison!

23443463453 10y ago

I think the unspoken fear is that bringing down Uber means pulling a big card out from the house of cards. The money that has been pumped into Uber simply on hopes and dreams of a utopian vision of autonomous cars all controlled and operated by Uber and the schizophrenic valuations would have to face their day of reckoning if Uber is even just slightly acknowledged as being rotten. The emperor does in fact have the most wonderful clothes on indeed, because we all agree he does.

stagbeetle 10y ago

Here's a point of view that is more in-line with what the everyday man thinks (which just so happens to be my view): >"Who cares? I'm using Uber because it's convenient and has more coverage than Lyft." > Yes, but what about all of the shady things that Uber has been doing? >"What things? If they've done things, I haven't heard of them nor does it seem like it affects me in anyway." > You don't care that a company is being shady, sexually harasses its employees, tracks it users... ad nausem? >"No, it's not something that's important to me."

Cub3 10y ago

They are the only ride sharing solution currently in Australia