8 ms·

BART takeover robbery: 40 to 60 teens swarm train, rob weekend riders

69 points by edward 10y ago

locust101 10y ago
I thought Oakland was being gentrified?
- shawn-butler 10y ago
  (One of?) the underlying interpretation is that this is a response to that gentrification.
headcanon 10y ago
Looks like its time for SF to film a sequel to The Warriors. As if we needed any more reminders of the state of dystopia we find ourselves in.
- Neliquat 10y ago
  Lol, if you think modern sf is as bad as 80 nyc, you need a cold shower.
  - headcanon 10y ago
    Oh I'm sure it was way worse, just a joke :)
lancefisher 10y ago
>The images cannot be shared publicly, she said, because the suspects appear to be minors. Really? If you're old enough to rob a train, you should be old enough to have a wanted poster.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That's because that wanted poster then stays around forever because of the internet and their records can't be wiped when they reach the age of majority.
  - WillPostForFood 10y ago
    Police typically don't release booking photos of minors, because there is nothing to gain, and there is the potential cost you mention. But surveillance footage that might assist in the apprehension of the criminals, even kids, is often released, and rightfully so.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      In this case they write they have good hope that the department they are working with will be able to ID the suspects so there is as far as I can see no need to release the footage.
      - WillPostForFood 10y ago
        It just shows it is a low priority, and they don't want people to see the footage because it makes BART look bad.
  - zeveb 10y ago
    They're part of a violent gang which violently robbed a train — they don't deserve to have their records wiped when they reach adulthood.
    - jacquesm 10y ago
      You should go into politics. Meanwhile, the law is the law and that's how it stands. What you (or I) personally feel they deserve or not doesn't matter.
- draw_down 10y ago
  That's not really how that works.
- Animats 10y ago
  That doesn't seem to be the law in California.[1] California prohibits the copying of photographs taken by or for the Coroner at a death scene, but that doesn't apply here. There's no expectation of privacy. It's not a juvenile court record. The video will probably be available eventually. Some of the cameras on BART trains are dummies. After an embarrassment last year, BART has been replacing the dummies with real ones. Completion is scheduled for July 1, 2017. [1] https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0364.htm https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0364.htm
  - Animats 10y ago
    News reports are that six of the nine cars in the train had working cameras.
mrspeaker 10y ago
Something similar to this happened on a train to Paris a few years back and at the time I remember thinking that it seemed like the stupidest crime you could commit. 40+ people to split the takings with, and you only need 1 of the 40+ people to get busted to lead to the rest (the french criminals weren't minors). I know I shouldn't try to apply logic to it, but... it just doesn't seem like a sound profit-making venture.
- defen 10y ago
  > it just doesn't seem like a sound profit-making venture. It makes more sense if you look at it as a territorial dominance display. "They" are in "our" territory so we're going to assault and humiliate them.
randyrand 10y ago
> The images cannot be shared publicly, she said, because the suspects appear to be minors. Does anyone have info on the law here? Pictures that include minors in them are shared all the time over the internet and media - many times without having permission from all the people pictured - which I believe is still legal. Why is sharing a picture of a minor illegal in this instance?
- samtho 10y ago
  I am not a layer, but: Innocent until proven guilty, and once the images get out, they are automatically guilty in the eyes of the public. Should any minor get their record sealed when they turn 18, they would still be known to have committed those crimes. As they have not been apprehended the suspects, it is unknown if they would be tried as an adult. The new outlet is erring on the side of caution here because if the case where a suspect is tried as a minor, gets their record sealed at 18, and will be liable for slandering the adult's name with a crime he or she committed as a juvenile.
  - schoen 10y ago
    > The new outlet is erring on the side of caution here because if the case where a suspect is tried as a minor, gets their record sealed at 18, and will be liable for slandering the adult's name with a crime he or she committed as a juvenile. Wait, what? Are you saying that the Right to Be Forgotten already exists in the U.S. with respect to criminal convictions of minors?
    - SamReidHughes 10y ago
      Yeah the parent's wrong, you can talk about crimes all you want.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  I don't have the specific citations handy, but California law enforcement agencies are restricted in what information, and in what circumstances, they can share with regard to minors suspected of crimes. This has nothing to do with limits on people in general sharing video or images of minors.
bdrool 10y ago
An earlier version of this article said something like "BART did not immediately report the incident" (can't recall exact wording). This statement or any equivalent appears to be removed. It looks like newsdiff.org doesn't track sfgate.com, so I can't find the exact change. Regardless, the article originally indicated BART didn't report the incident to the public right away. That leads me to say: sweeping this kind of crime under the rug will not help. Instead, it will lead to a repeat of the Goetz vigilante incident in NYC in the early 1980s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo... http://nypost.com/2011/12/23/one-of-bernhard-goetzs-victims-kills-self-on-anniversary-of-subway-shoot-2/ http://nypost.com/2011/12/23/one-of-bernhard-goetzs-victims-... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-feldman/bernie-goetz-the-subway-g_b_6369128.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-feldman/bernie-goetz-t... That last link in particular contains a stunning statement: > The crime rate in the dangerous subways plunged dramatically — so much so the authorities even held back the numbers — the truth hurt too much. The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works. Please note I hate the idea of vigilantism and hope with every fiber of my being that things do not come to that, but it at first glance appears that things are headed in that direction, which I am immensely sad and scared to see.
- glangdale 10y ago
  > The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works. [ citation needed ]
  - Apocryphon 10y ago
    Superhero comics?
  - bdrool 10y ago
    I already gave one, just a few sentences above.
    - WillyOnWheels 10y ago
      You're justifying writing "The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works" by including a link to an article written by a NRA spokesman that basically says "The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works", without backing it up. I've actually spent the last hour looking for statistics to back or not back you up. I've wasted my life.
jraines 10y ago
I wonder if commuting by BART constitutes a "good cause" w/r/t California's concealed-carry law. I doubt it, but it'd be kind of funny to hear a court say out loud that in Alameda County, "exposure to risk of coordinated gang train robbery" doesn't constitute a "non-mainstream circumstance" placing one in harm's way.
- dmix 10y ago
  I highly doubt that in California and SF in particular, with their strict gun laws, but I could be wrong. These flash mob robberies are quite common on the east coast. I've heard about a number of them in Philadelphia on reddit where a group of 'youths' shows up and attacks people. It's a surprisingly little reported on phenomenon. Yet it sounds quite psychologically jarring.
  - millermp12 10y ago
    "It's a surprisingly little reported on phenomenon." Really not that surprising. The capacity to ignore anything that hurts the narrative is approaching delusional levels.
- brainfire 10y ago
  It doesn't get much more mainstream than "rides mass transit" in an urban area...
- hirundo 10y ago
  > I wonder if commuting by BART constitutes a "good cause" w/r/t California's concealed-carry law. Since the license is may-issue, it depends on the LEO you apply to. I was denied one on almost exactly these grounds. I told my local police chief that my business took me to high crime areas in San Francisco, and he said that wasn't good enough, and that I'd have to have evidence of a specific threat to my specific life to be considered for one.
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  Could a handgun really deter a crowd of 40 to 60 people? Especially if some might be packing heat themselves? Or could just overpower you regardless? There's situations where concealed carry could help but I'm not sure if this case is one of them.
eof 10y ago
40 to 60 teens working in concert? that's the real news here
some-guy 10y ago
Reminds me of the Warriors' slogan, "Strength in Numbers". In all seriousness though, as a daily BART commuter, I hope this doesn't become a trend. I don't think there's any reason to panic just yet -- I feel a lot safer inside of a BART car than on the freeway.
youdontknowtho 10y ago
This is bad, but these kinds of stories serve to convince people that crime is up when, in fact, it is down.
- Altay- 10y ago
  Crime went down becausr wr locked up all the Urban Youth scum. Now theres chatter of letting em out and going soft on crime. If that happens, crime will back up.
halfnibble 10y ago
What 3rd world country did this happen in? Ah, that's right. California. I'll stick to my peaceful train ride along the coast up here in Seattle.
halfnibble 10y ago
What 3rd world country did this happen in? Ah, that's right. California. I'll stick to my peaceful train ride along the coast up here in Seattle.
- sctb 10y ago
  Please post civilly and substantively on HN or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
russellbeattie 10y ago
What are you going to do, whip out your handgun and start taking down 16 year olds? Your iPhone 7 is totally worth a teen's life - or hell, 4 or 5 of them - especially if they're black, right? One would think you Trump voters would have gotten a clue by now.
- jraines 10y ago
  I didn't vote for Trump and have never owned a handgun. It's interesting that you go straight to tarring me as a racist for merely speculating on what I find to be an amusing hypothetical application of California's gun law and the 9th's circuit's language in the Peruta case that affects it.
  - russellbeattie 10y ago
    Sorry. I jumped to conclusions and kneejerked. That said, the crazy-ass people out there who might read your comment and think, Pizza-gate style, that they now have a reason to ride BART packing heat makes me think you could have phrased your "amusing" hypothetical better, no?
- Altay- 10y ago
  Do people not have a right to defend themselves? You just want to wait around as you're robbed? How about you save me some time and just paypal me $800? Cuck.
  - sctb 10y ago
    We've banned this account.
- jumpman_miya 10y ago
  Yes, that is correct. If you try to rob me and I'm scared for my life, it will cost you yours. Sorry.
  - russellbeattie 10y ago
justboxing 10y ago
No mention of Guns or Knives in any of the stories. Does anyone know how these 'teens' successfully committed their robbery? If I don't see a gun or a knife and some kid walks up to me and says "Hand me your wallet and iPhone", I'd simply tell the 'teen' "Yeah, let me see you take it."
- WillyOnWheels 10y ago
  A witness didn't mention any guns or knives. https://np.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/6711kb/bart_theftcrime_incident_on_dublin_train_at/dgnbwj5/ https://np.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/6711kb/bart_theftcr...
- MagnumOpus 10y ago
  And maybe that makes you a slightly less desirable target than the elderly lady in the next carriage over, but maybe it also means you get your ribs kicked in and your skull smashed by a dozen yobs. One stray kick in the nuts is all it takes.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

69 points by edward 10y ago

locust101 10y ago

I thought Oakland was being gentrified?

shawn-butler 10y ago
(One of?) the underlying interpretation is that this is a response to that gentrification.

headcanon 10y ago

Looks like its time for SF to film a sequel to The Warriors. As if we needed any more reminders of the state of dystopia we find ourselves in.

Neliquat 10y ago
Lol, if you think modern sf is as bad as 80 nyc, you need a cold shower.
- headcanon 10y ago
  Oh I'm sure it was way worse, just a joke :)

lancefisher 10y ago

>The images cannot be shared publicly, she said, because the suspects appear to be minors. Really? If you're old enough to rob a train, you should be old enough to have a wanted poster.

jacquesm 10y ago
That's because that wanted poster then stays around forever because of the internet and their records can't be wiped when they reach the age of majority.
- WillPostForFood 10y ago
  Police typically don't release booking photos of minors, because there is nothing to gain, and there is the potential cost you mention. But surveillance footage that might assist in the apprehension of the criminals, even kids, is often released, and rightfully so.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    In this case they write they have good hope that the department they are working with will be able to ID the suspects so there is as far as I can see no need to release the footage.
    - WillPostForFood 10y ago
      It just shows it is a low priority, and they don't want people to see the footage because it makes BART look bad.
- zeveb 10y ago
  They're part of a violent gang which violently robbed a train — they don't deserve to have their records wiped when they reach adulthood.
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    You should go into politics. Meanwhile, the law is the law and that's how it stands. What you (or I) personally feel they deserve or not doesn't matter.
draw_down 10y ago
That's not really how that works.
Animats 10y ago
That doesn't seem to be the law in California.[1] California prohibits the copying of photographs taken by or for the Coroner at a death scene, but that doesn't apply here. There's no expectation of privacy. It's not a juvenile court record. The video will probably be available eventually. Some of the cameras on BART trains are dummies. After an embarrassment last year, BART has been replacing the dummies with real ones. Completion is scheduled for July 1, 2017. [1] https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0364.htm https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0364.htm
- Animats 10y ago
  News reports are that six of the nine cars in the train had working cameras.

mrspeaker 10y ago

Something similar to this happened on a train to Paris a few years back and at the time I remember thinking that it seemed like the stupidest crime you could commit. 40+ people to split the takings with, and you only need 1 of the 40+ people to get busted to lead to the rest (the french criminals weren't minors). I know I shouldn't try to apply logic to it, but... it just doesn't seem like a sound profit-making venture.

defen 10y ago
> it just doesn't seem like a sound profit-making venture. It makes more sense if you look at it as a territorial dominance display. "They" are in "our" territory so we're going to assault and humiliate them.

randyrand 10y ago

> The images cannot be shared publicly, she said, because the suspects appear to be minors. Does anyone have info on the law here? Pictures that include minors in them are shared all the time over the internet and media - many times without having permission from all the people pictured - which I believe is still legal. Why is sharing a picture of a minor illegal in this instance?

samtho 10y ago
I am not a layer, but: Innocent until proven guilty, and once the images get out, they are automatically guilty in the eyes of the public. Should any minor get their record sealed when they turn 18, they would still be known to have committed those crimes. As they have not been apprehended the suspects, it is unknown if they would be tried as an adult. The new outlet is erring on the side of caution here because if the case where a suspect is tried as a minor, gets their record sealed at 18, and will be liable for slandering the adult's name with a crime he or she committed as a juvenile.
- schoen 10y ago
  > The new outlet is erring on the side of caution here because if the case where a suspect is tried as a minor, gets their record sealed at 18, and will be liable for slandering the adult's name with a crime he or she committed as a juvenile. Wait, what? Are you saying that the Right to Be Forgotten already exists in the U.S. with respect to criminal convictions of minors?
  - SamReidHughes 10y ago
    Yeah the parent's wrong, you can talk about crimes all you want.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 10y ago
I don't have the specific citations handy, but California law enforcement agencies are restricted in what information, and in what circumstances, they can share with regard to minors suspected of crimes. This has nothing to do with limits on people in general sharing video or images of minors.

bdrool 10y ago

An earlier version of this article said something like "BART did not immediately report the incident" (can't recall exact wording). This statement or any equivalent appears to be removed. It looks like newsdiff.org doesn't track sfgate.com, so I can't find the exact change. Regardless, the article originally indicated BART didn't report the incident to the public right away. That leads me to say: sweeping this kind of crime under the rug will not help. Instead, it will lead to a repeat of the Goetz vigilante incident in NYC in the early 1980s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_New_York_City_Subway_shoo... http://nypost.com/2011/12/23/one-of-bernhard-goetzs-victims-kills-self-on-anniversary-of-subway-shoot-2/ http://nypost.com/2011/12/23/one-of-bernhard-goetzs-victims-... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-feldman/bernie-goetz-the-subway-g_b_6369128.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-feldman/bernie-goetz-t... That last link in particular contains a stunning statement: > The crime rate in the dangerous subways plunged dramatically — so much so the authorities even held back the numbers — the truth hurt too much. The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works. Please note I hate the idea of vigilantism and hope with every fiber of my being that things do not come to that, but it at first glance appears that things are headed in that direction, which I am immensely sad and scared to see.

glangdale 10y ago
> The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works. [ citation needed ]
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  Superhero comics?
- bdrool 10y ago
  I already gave one, just a few sentences above.
  - WillyOnWheels 10y ago
    You're justifying writing "The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works" by including a link to an article written by a NRA spokesman that basically says "The ugly and frightening truth about vigilantism is that it works", without backing it up. I've actually spent the last hour looking for statistics to back or not back you up. I've wasted my life.

jraines 10y ago

I wonder if commuting by BART constitutes a "good cause" w/r/t California's concealed-carry law. I doubt it, but it'd be kind of funny to hear a court say out loud that in Alameda County, "exposure to risk of coordinated gang train robbery" doesn't constitute a "non-mainstream circumstance" placing one in harm's way.

dmix 10y ago
I highly doubt that in California and SF in particular, with their strict gun laws, but I could be wrong. These flash mob robberies are quite common on the east coast. I've heard about a number of them in Philadelphia on reddit where a group of 'youths' shows up and attacks people. It's a surprisingly little reported on phenomenon. Yet it sounds quite psychologically jarring.
- millermp12 10y ago
  "It's a surprisingly little reported on phenomenon." Really not that surprising. The capacity to ignore anything that hurts the narrative is approaching delusional levels.
brainfire 10y ago
It doesn't get much more mainstream than "rides mass transit" in an urban area...
hirundo 10y ago
> I wonder if commuting by BART constitutes a "good cause" w/r/t California's concealed-carry law. Since the license is may-issue, it depends on the LEO you apply to. I was denied one on almost exactly these grounds. I told my local police chief that my business took me to high crime areas in San Francisco, and he said that wasn't good enough, and that I'd have to have evidence of a specific threat to my specific life to be considered for one.
Apocryphon 10y ago
Could a handgun really deter a crowd of 40 to 60 people? Especially if some might be packing heat themselves? Or could just overpower you regardless? There's situations where concealed carry could help but I'm not sure if this case is one of them.

eof 10y ago

40 to 60 teens working in concert? that's the real news here

some-guy 10y ago

Reminds me of the Warriors' slogan, "Strength in Numbers". In all seriousness though, as a daily BART commuter, I hope this doesn't become a trend. I don't think there's any reason to panic just yet -- I feel a lot safer inside of a BART car than on the freeway.

youdontknowtho 10y ago

This is bad, but these kinds of stories serve to convince people that crime is up when, in fact, it is down.

Altay- 10y ago
Crime went down becausr wr locked up all the Urban Youth scum. Now theres chatter of letting em out and going soft on crime. If that happens, crime will back up.

halfnibble 10y ago

What 3rd world country did this happen in? Ah, that's right. California. I'll stick to my peaceful train ride along the coast up here in Seattle.

halfnibble 10y ago

What 3rd world country did this happen in? Ah, that's right. California. I'll stick to my peaceful train ride along the coast up here in Seattle.

sctb 10y ago
Please post civilly and substantively on HN or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

russellbeattie 10y ago

What are you going to do, whip out your handgun and start taking down 16 year olds? Your iPhone 7 is totally worth a teen's life - or hell, 4 or 5 of them - especially if they're black, right? One would think you Trump voters would have gotten a clue by now.

jraines 10y ago
I didn't vote for Trump and have never owned a handgun. It's interesting that you go straight to tarring me as a racist for merely speculating on what I find to be an amusing hypothetical application of California's gun law and the 9th's circuit's language in the Peruta case that affects it.
- russellbeattie 10y ago
  Sorry. I jumped to conclusions and kneejerked. That said, the crazy-ass people out there who might read your comment and think, Pizza-gate style, that they now have a reason to ride BART packing heat makes me think you could have phrased your "amusing" hypothetical better, no?
Altay- 10y ago
Do people not have a right to defend themselves? You just want to wait around as you're robbed? How about you save me some time and just paypal me $800? Cuck.
- sctb 10y ago
  We've banned this account.
jumpman_miya 10y ago
Yes, that is correct. If you try to rob me and I'm scared for my life, it will cost you yours. Sorry.
- russellbeattie 10y ago

justboxing 10y ago

No mention of Guns or Knives in any of the stories. Does anyone know how these 'teens' successfully committed their robbery? If I don't see a gun or a knife and some kid walks up to me and says "Hand me your wallet and iPhone", I'd simply tell the 'teen' "Yeah, let me see you take it."

WillyOnWheels 10y ago
A witness didn't mention any guns or knives. https://np.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/6711kb/bart_theftcrime_incident_on_dublin_train_at/dgnbwj5/ https://np.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/6711kb/bart_theftcr...
MagnumOpus 10y ago
And maybe that makes you a slightly less desirable target than the elderly lady in the next carriage over, but maybe it also means you get your ribs kicked in and your skull smashed by a dozen yobs. One stray kick in the nuts is all it takes.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]