4 ms·

Clean hydrogen production takes about 3x electricity for driving the same distance, than directly charging a battery powered car. And that does not even take th

by _ph_ 10y ago

Clean hydrogen production takes about 3x electricity for driving the same distance, than directly charging a battery powered car. And that does not even take the difficulties of transporting hydrogen into aspect. So hydrogen might have a future for airplanes, but much less so for cars.

Neliquat 10y ago
Honda thinks otherwise, and just rolled out a new model based on fuel cell tech this month iirc. The biggest issues have been lack of filling stations, and decreased trunk space. Hydrogen is similar in safety to lpg, and filled in a similar way.
- _ph_ 10y ago
  If you look at the complexity of a fuel cell vehicle, you can easily see why car manufacturers like this technology :). Toyota, who did create the Mirai, recently launched an electric car program. Hydrogen is more complex to handle than lpg, which as the name says, is liquid at 5-10 atmospheres, while hydrogen is a gas and stored at 300 atmospheres pressure, the filling stations have to compress it to 700 atmospheres to fill the tank in reasonable time. This compression is a big factor in the energy overhead of hydrogen.
pdelbarba 10y ago
Not sure why you're being downvoted. This is the reality of the situation. I don't really see hydrogen being used in aircraft either, honestly. It's not even the energy imbalance, it's storage in the vehicle. It's not Hindenburg levels of unsafe but it's definitely worse than batteries and maybe gasoline. The amount of energy you can store per unit volume is only about twice a Li-ion cell (slightly better by weight, but that's not the issue in cars and supporting equipment further hurts this) and will likely be no better than the next generation of LiS cells.
Symmetry 10y ago
I agree about the infeasibility of hydrogen cars but I always imagine that if you were going to run a hydrogen gas station you'd just manufacture the hydrogen on-site taking advantage of the already existing water and electrical grids.
- Robotbeat 10y ago
  ... then it might be more like 4 or 8x as much, since you'll be operating at a lower scale and thus likely to have a less efficient electrolysis unit. Additionally, your electricity tariff will likely be much higher than the rate of a centralized electrolysis station.
- Roritharr 10y ago
  Isn't most Hydrogen made from Breaking up Methane anyway?
  - jononor 10y ago
    That would be interesting, considering methane is a surplus gas in landfills etc.
  - ams6110 10y ago
    Fuel cells can run directly on methane, for that matter, but then there are some CO2 emissions
JKCalhoun 10y ago
3x the electricity isn't an issue if transporting the hydrogen were reliable. There's a reason energy-gobbling industries like the aluminum foundries are situated along rivers where hydroelectric power is nearly free.

by _ph_ 10y ago

Neliquat 10y ago

Honda thinks otherwise, and just rolled out a new model based on fuel cell tech this month iirc. The biggest issues have been lack of filling stations, and decreased trunk space. Hydrogen is similar in safety to lpg, and filled in a similar way.

_ph_ 10y ago
If you look at the complexity of a fuel cell vehicle, you can easily see why car manufacturers like this technology :). Toyota, who did create the Mirai, recently launched an electric car program. Hydrogen is more complex to handle than lpg, which as the name says, is liquid at 5-10 atmospheres, while hydrogen is a gas and stored at 300 atmospheres pressure, the filling stations have to compress it to 700 atmospheres to fill the tank in reasonable time. This compression is a big factor in the energy overhead of hydrogen.

pdelbarba 10y ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted. This is the reality of the situation. I don't really see hydrogen being used in aircraft either, honestly. It's not even the energy imbalance, it's storage in the vehicle. It's not Hindenburg levels of unsafe but it's definitely worse than batteries and maybe gasoline. The amount of energy you can store per unit volume is only about twice a Li-ion cell (slightly better by weight, but that's not the issue in cars and supporting equipment further hurts this) and will likely be no better than the next generation of LiS cells.

Symmetry 10y ago

I agree about the infeasibility of hydrogen cars but I always imagine that if you were going to run a hydrogen gas station you'd just manufacture the hydrogen on-site taking advantage of the already existing water and electrical grids.

Robotbeat 10y ago
... then it might be more like 4 or 8x as much, since you'll be operating at a lower scale and thus likely to have a less efficient electrolysis unit. Additionally, your electricity tariff will likely be much higher than the rate of a centralized electrolysis station.
Roritharr 10y ago
Isn't most Hydrogen made from Breaking up Methane anyway?
- jononor 10y ago
  That would be interesting, considering methane is a surplus gas in landfills etc.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Fuel cells can run directly on methane, for that matter, but then there are some CO2 emissions

JKCalhoun 10y ago

3x the electricity isn't an issue if transporting the hydrogen were reliable. There's a reason energy-gobbling industries like the aluminum foundries are situated along rivers where hydroelectric power is nearly free.