5 ms·

So this kind of article is excellent and I really am excited about how entheogen can potentially heal productivity to depression. I have been very interested i

So this kind of article is excellent and I really am excited about how entheogen can potentially heal productivity to depression. I have been very interested in this concept and approach as I know several people who could benefit from this - myself included. Psychedelics are tools and are not to be taken lightly. As much as an advocate as I am for them I also agree that they're not for everyone. Finally being able to have access to testing and experimentation we may discover even more capabilities. However, what drives me crazy is how are we supposed to get the medicine? Especially in the case of LSD I am concerned of purity and risk of finding it. It's a lot different now than it was in the 80's - at least here in the midwest. We no longer have the Grateful Dead and/or "family" providing clean sources. To make matters worse it's most likely the > 40 year olds crowd who would be interested in this but who is going to sell a 'mom or dad looking person' a hit of acid? Hanging out in the concert lot isn't what it used to be ;-). Perhaps in places like Marin County there still is some availability. I hope so and I hope it once agains paints it's way across the country/world.

forgotpwtomain 9y ago
> Especially in the case of LSD I am concerned of purity and risk of finding it. LSD is active doses < 100µg - there are almost no other substances active at these kinds of levels.
- northband 9y ago
  I don't doubt that it is unique for being active at such low levels. But the issue I was mentioning is ensuring that it is indeed real LSD and not some similar drug. Currently there are variations of LSD that are becoming popular because of their legal stance. LSD is illegal but variations of it may not be - thus in some cases may be being passed off as LSD. Even when there was lots of LSD around there was always the weird variations that just weren't very clean. Often "family acid" was rated as the best. But the problem is every Tom, Dick, and Harry would swing their crappy acid as "family acid". Most often you could determine good acid by the artwork on the print. Such as Alex Gray Jesus blotter, Alice and the Looking Glass, Flying Pyramids, etc. So my point is - I just hope that what we're hearing as LSD is in fact good clean LSD.
  - pmoriarty 9y ago
    You can't tell good acid by the artwork on the blotter. Anyone could put or copy any artwork they wanted to any garbage or even empty sheets. The only way to tell with reasonable certainty of what you're getting is to have the product tested, ideally at multiple independent, high quality laboratories. Even then, if you're testing blotter or microdots, you're only going to know about the ones you tested, not about the rest of the batch. Properly shaken/stirred liquid should be better in that if one drop tested fine, the rest should be the same. But even then, if the substance easily separates out in the solution, you can't trust that either. If anyone with a deeper knowledge of chemistry could speak about the effectiveness of testing, that would be welcome.
    - brianwawok 9y ago
      Can you even do that legally? Here drug lab, I have an illegal drug. Can you test it for me and tell me if it is really the illegal drug I wanted?
      - kahrkunne 9y ago
        I don't know about other countries but at least here in the Netherlands, yes you can.
      - pmoriarty 9y ago
        EcstasyData[1], which does the testing for DanceSafe[2], apparently has a DEA license: "EcstasyData tests ecstasy tablets, powders, research chemicals, new pschoactive substances, and other street drugs through our DEA-licensed laboratory."[3] You can also buy testing kits[4] for some drugs, like ecstasy, and do the testing yourself. Looks like there is a test kit for LSD even.[5] "Ehrlich's Reagent is a solution of hydrochloric acid, ethanol and p–dimethylaminobenzaldehyde. It can be used to positively identify LSD, helping rule out 25i-NBOMe, a highly toxic and extremely dangerous drug that is often misrepresented as LSD. Ehrlich's can also be used to identify other indoles. Contains enough reagent for approximately 50 tests." I'm not sure if ruling out 25i-NBOMe is enough, though. Could there be other toxic substances that aren't caught by this test? Still, some testing is much better than no testing. [1] - http://www.ecstasydata.org http://www.ecstasydata.org [2] - https://dancesafe.org/about-us/ https://dancesafe.org/about-us/ [3] - http://www.ecstasydata.org/about_data.php http://www.ecstasydata.org/about_data.php [4] - https://dancesafe.org/shop/ https://dancesafe.org/shop/ [5] - https://dancesafe.org/product/ehrlichs-reagent-testing-kit/ https://dancesafe.org/product/ehrlichs-reagent-testing-kit/
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  There are newer synthetic drugs like bromo-dragonfly[1] that approach the potency of LSD, and have caused fatalities.[2][3] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly#Toxicity [3] - https://erowid.org/chemicals/bromo_dragonfly/bromo_dragonfly_death.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/bromo_dragonfly/bromo_dragonfly...
  - 3131s 9y ago
    The dose for Bromo-DragonFLY is still fortunately too large to fit on a 1/4 x 1/4 inch piece of blotter paper (EDIT: Actually, after looking into this a bit more, I'm not so sure about this statement. I'll defer to someone with more knowledge, but until then take what I've said with a grain of salt.). It sounds like a primitive methodology, but in the absence of a testing kit, this small-sized blotter paper is a pretty sure sign that you have real LSD. If you are offered larger blotter paper, it is very likely to be one of the NBOMe drugs, which are also not so safe in comparison to LSD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe
    - deleted 9y ago
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      - deleted 9y ago
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    - Mo3 9y ago
      I've had highly dosed NBOMe (not by accident) which came on tiny blotters. Size is never a good gauge
    - acchow 9y ago
      I think you understand a lot less about this than you believe you do - this is pretty dangerous (tho not as bad as a comment above basing trustworthiness off label artwork)
- cryptarch 9y ago
  NBOMe's are! They also have psychadelic effects but are a lot riskier and tend to last longer. It's a good thing they have a bitter taste, and if your LSD has a bitter/metallic taste: spit! It shouldn't taste like anything and you don't want HPPD.
  - amorphous_hn 9y ago
    Nbomes requiee a higher dosage than LSD. [REDACTED] has never tasted anything but paper on tabs, but some claim a metallic taste when there is none. The best protocol is to swallow the tab, in which case nbomes will not have an effect (they must be sublingually absorbed). There is little reason to take LSD sublingually although it is quite common among recreational users - which is again silly because if you swallow you can guarantee that nbomes won't affect you
    - forgotpwtomain 9y ago
      That's interesting, can you provide a reference for NBOMEs having to be taken sublingually to have an effect?
- zild3d 9y ago
  this used to be true, but with the number of psychoactive research chemicals there is no way to be sure what's on the paper without testing it.
lutusp 9y ago
> However, what drives me crazy is how are we supposed to get the medicine? It might be too soon to call this "medicine," a word with certain emotional associations. The article includes many interesting and intriguing anecdotes, but to date the described effects haven't been examined in a properly designed double-blind study (a study with two or more groups and no practical way for the subjects or experimenters to know which group is which[1]). We must all remember that the placebo effect is particularly persuasive -- some would say confounding -- in the evaluation of mental states. On the other hand, the so-called "war on drugs" has made it difficult to study these substances without legal entanglements, a factor that by itself may have held back legitimate research for decades. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#Double-blind_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#Double-blin...
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  "It might be too soon to call this "medicine," a word with certain emotional associations. The article includes many interesting and intriguing anecdotes, but to date the described effects haven't been examined in a properly designed double-blind study" The history of medicine is full of examples of treatments being tested in the clinic long before any double-blind tests are made. Things like the first use of anesthetic spring to mind. If they had waited for double-blind studies that would have satisfied modern science, millions of people would have suffered for another hundred years without it. The practice of testing treatments in the clinic continues to this day, with doctors prescribing medicines for off-label uses, and with even psychedelics being used in psychedelic therapy by psychologists brave enough to risk their careers and freedom to help people. Ideally there would be double-blind studies on everything, but those studies cost an enormous amount of money, and in the case of psychedelics have to overcome enormous political hurdles. The cost rises astronomically when we're talking about large, statistically significant double-blind studies. Furthermore, since a lot of psychedelics, like mushrooms and peyote, can be ingested directly from plants, and many others like LSD have long been out of patent protection, most pharmaceutical companies (which are usually the only ones with pockets deep enough to fund these kinds of studies) aren't interested, as they won't make a profit on something so easily available from other sources than themselves. That's not to mention the political hot potato of psychedelic research as a whole, which is still regarded with suspicion by much of the medical and political establishment.
notmarkus 9y ago
The dark web solves most of those issues, but comes with a few new ones of its own. That said, I genuinely think it's a viable source if you're in the market.

forgotpwtomain 9y ago

> Especially in the case of LSD I am concerned of purity and risk of finding it. LSD is active doses < 100µg - there are almost no other substances active at these kinds of levels.

northband 9y ago
I don't doubt that it is unique for being active at such low levels. But the issue I was mentioning is ensuring that it is indeed real LSD and not some similar drug. Currently there are variations of LSD that are becoming popular because of their legal stance. LSD is illegal but variations of it may not be - thus in some cases may be being passed off as LSD. Even when there was lots of LSD around there was always the weird variations that just weren't very clean. Often "family acid" was rated as the best. But the problem is every Tom, Dick, and Harry would swing their crappy acid as "family acid". Most often you could determine good acid by the artwork on the print. Such as Alex Gray Jesus blotter, Alice and the Looking Glass, Flying Pyramids, etc. So my point is - I just hope that what we're hearing as LSD is in fact good clean LSD.
- pmoriarty 9y ago
  You can't tell good acid by the artwork on the blotter. Anyone could put or copy any artwork they wanted to any garbage or even empty sheets. The only way to tell with reasonable certainty of what you're getting is to have the product tested, ideally at multiple independent, high quality laboratories. Even then, if you're testing blotter or microdots, you're only going to know about the ones you tested, not about the rest of the batch. Properly shaken/stirred liquid should be better in that if one drop tested fine, the rest should be the same. But even then, if the substance easily separates out in the solution, you can't trust that either. If anyone with a deeper knowledge of chemistry could speak about the effectiveness of testing, that would be welcome.
  - brianwawok 9y ago
    Can you even do that legally? Here drug lab, I have an illegal drug. Can you test it for me and tell me if it is really the illegal drug I wanted?
    - kahrkunne 9y ago
      I don't know about other countries but at least here in the Netherlands, yes you can.
    - pmoriarty 9y ago
      EcstasyData[1], which does the testing for DanceSafe[2], apparently has a DEA license: "EcstasyData tests ecstasy tablets, powders, research chemicals, new pschoactive substances, and other street drugs through our DEA-licensed laboratory."[3] You can also buy testing kits[4] for some drugs, like ecstasy, and do the testing yourself. Looks like there is a test kit for LSD even.[5] "Ehrlich's Reagent is a solution of hydrochloric acid, ethanol and p–dimethylaminobenzaldehyde. It can be used to positively identify LSD, helping rule out 25i-NBOMe, a highly toxic and extremely dangerous drug that is often misrepresented as LSD. Ehrlich's can also be used to identify other indoles. Contains enough reagent for approximately 50 tests." I'm not sure if ruling out 25i-NBOMe is enough, though. Could there be other toxic substances that aren't caught by this test? Still, some testing is much better than no testing. [1] - http://www.ecstasydata.org http://www.ecstasydata.org [2] - https://dancesafe.org/about-us/ https://dancesafe.org/about-us/ [3] - http://www.ecstasydata.org/about_data.php http://www.ecstasydata.org/about_data.php [4] - https://dancesafe.org/shop/ https://dancesafe.org/shop/ [5] - https://dancesafe.org/product/ehrlichs-reagent-testing-kit/ https://dancesafe.org/product/ehrlichs-reagent-testing-kit/
pmoriarty 9y ago
There are newer synthetic drugs like bromo-dragonfly[1] that approach the potency of LSD, and have caused fatalities.[2][3] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromo_Dragonfly#Toxicity [3] - https://erowid.org/chemicals/bromo_dragonfly/bromo_dragonfly_death.shtml https://erowid.org/chemicals/bromo_dragonfly/bromo_dragonfly...
- 3131s 9y ago
  The dose for Bromo-DragonFLY is still fortunately too large to fit on a 1/4 x 1/4 inch piece of blotter paper (EDIT: Actually, after looking into this a bit more, I'm not so sure about this statement. I'll defer to someone with more knowledge, but until then take what I've said with a grain of salt.). It sounds like a primitive methodology, but in the absence of a testing kit, this small-sized blotter paper is a pretty sure sign that you have real LSD. If you are offered larger blotter paper, it is very likely to be one of the NBOMe drugs, which are also not so safe in comparison to LSD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - Mo3 9y ago
    I've had highly dosed NBOMe (not by accident) which came on tiny blotters. Size is never a good gauge
  - acchow 9y ago
    I think you understand a lot less about this than you believe you do - this is pretty dangerous (tho not as bad as a comment above basing trustworthiness off label artwork)
cryptarch 9y ago
NBOMe's are! They also have psychadelic effects but are a lot riskier and tend to last longer. It's a good thing they have a bitter taste, and if your LSD has a bitter/metallic taste: spit! It shouldn't taste like anything and you don't want HPPD.
- amorphous_hn 9y ago
  Nbomes requiee a higher dosage than LSD. [REDACTED] has never tasted anything but paper on tabs, but some claim a metallic taste when there is none. The best protocol is to swallow the tab, in which case nbomes will not have an effect (they must be sublingually absorbed). There is little reason to take LSD sublingually although it is quite common among recreational users - which is again silly because if you swallow you can guarantee that nbomes won't affect you
  - forgotpwtomain 9y ago
    That's interesting, can you provide a reference for NBOMEs having to be taken sublingually to have an effect?
zild3d 9y ago
this used to be true, but with the number of psychoactive research chemicals there is no way to be sure what's on the paper without testing it.

lutusp 9y ago

> However, what drives me crazy is how are we supposed to get the medicine? It might be too soon to call this "medicine," a word with certain emotional associations. The article includes many interesting and intriguing anecdotes, but to date the described effects haven't been examined in a properly designed double-blind study (a study with two or more groups and no practical way for the subjects or experimenters to know which group is which[1]). We must all remember that the placebo effect is particularly persuasive -- some would say confounding -- in the evaluation of mental states. On the other hand, the so-called "war on drugs" has made it difficult to study these substances without legal entanglements, a factor that by itself may have held back legitimate research for decades. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#Double-blind_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment#Double-blin...

pmoriarty 9y ago
"It might be too soon to call this "medicine," a word with certain emotional associations. The article includes many interesting and intriguing anecdotes, but to date the described effects haven't been examined in a properly designed double-blind study" The history of medicine is full of examples of treatments being tested in the clinic long before any double-blind tests are made. Things like the first use of anesthetic spring to mind. If they had waited for double-blind studies that would have satisfied modern science, millions of people would have suffered for another hundred years without it. The practice of testing treatments in the clinic continues to this day, with doctors prescribing medicines for off-label uses, and with even psychedelics being used in psychedelic therapy by psychologists brave enough to risk their careers and freedom to help people. Ideally there would be double-blind studies on everything, but those studies cost an enormous amount of money, and in the case of psychedelics have to overcome enormous political hurdles. The cost rises astronomically when we're talking about large, statistically significant double-blind studies. Furthermore, since a lot of psychedelics, like mushrooms and peyote, can be ingested directly from plants, and many others like LSD have long been out of patent protection, most pharmaceutical companies (which are usually the only ones with pockets deep enough to fund these kinds of studies) aren't interested, as they won't make a profit on something so easily available from other sources than themselves. That's not to mention the political hot potato of psychedelic research as a whole, which is still regarded with suspicion by much of the medical and political establishment.

notmarkus 9y ago

The dark web solves most of those issues, but comes with a few new ones of its own. That said, I genuinely think it's a viable source if you're in the market.