6 ms·

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions ba

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions based on the bullshit they choose to surround themselves with. you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. it's far better to focus on your own knowledge and self improvement. it yields a higher return on investment. if you want to affect change, throw your time and money into actually influential things, not social media arguments.

eightysixfour 9y ago
> you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. The problem is when this wrong headedness starts to interfere at a public policy level, like climate change.
- the_af 9y ago
  It's also extremely difficult to talk to someone who truly thinks the moon is square. Suppose I actually want to talk about the moon? Or suppose I admit there's a lot I don't know about astronomy (a fascinating subject!), and this person thinks it's an invitation to speak about astrology? What I mean is, it doesn't even have to affect public policy to be bothersome. It also affects informal small-talk with acquaintances.
  - stan_rogers 9y ago
    There is, however, a rather large difference between "bothersome" and "a bunch of idiots voting for things that are going to kill people, possibly even me... and winning".
    - the_af 9y ago
      Yes, fully agreed, the latter is dangerous. The former is still annoying, though.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
danso 9y ago
As someone who has changed his mind, I've found that it is wrong to think that minds can't be changed. When people complain about how minds aren't changed, they are typically complaining about minds not changing now, i.e. At the point of debate. But minds can change over time, it's just that you don't get that immediate feedback that you want.
- Hoasi 9y ago
  Minds can be changed. For one, propaganda does work. If only minds could be changed using more honest means... Granted, education works too, to some degree. But that requires even more work on both parts.
- sofal 9y ago
  Exactly. I'm tired of self-proclaimed internet veterans witnessing people digging in on individual online conversations and then concluding that nobody ever changes their mind and all debate/discussion is pointless. I have done a 180 on so many positions I used to have thanks in no small part to people online who did not take this asinine defeatist perspective and went ahead and engaged in debate while the other side (including me) just dug their heels in during the actual conversation. I think a lot of people need to be educated about what the benefits of debate are and how they manifest slowly over time.
  - worldsayshi 9y ago
    This needs to be said. I just which there was a better way to retroactively deliver that feedback. That could diminish defeatism.
  - scottLobster 9y ago
    The issue is that most people on social media aren't looking for enlightenment, they're looking for validation. If they don't find it from one source they'll likely seek out a more suitable one. The only one who can change a person's mind is that person, all the rest of us can do is encourage.
    - 9y ago
thearn4 9y ago
For what it's worth, I've had luck moving some people's anti-science opinions by meeting them at their level of understanding, and offering some compassion. Might help that they are relatives and not total strangers though.
javajosh 9y ago
To me it's more like wanting your city to be a clean place. You see some trash, you pick it up and throw it in a trash can, even if it's not yours. When people have clearly wrong beliefs (e.g. a square moon), it might not matter all that much to you, but they might harm someone else by spreading the trash, or worse, connect with like-minded people and create a real danger for others (legislate pi to be 3). That mind of trash is no less a part of your environment than the physical street, and I think it's a very good thing if you make an effort to pick up the trash, even if it's not yours.
winfred 9y ago
>i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. And you learned the wrong thing. It is possible to change peoples minds and behavior with online conversation. It just isn't easy and it doesn't go quick (a single line directly pointing out a flaw often isn't enough, you have to bring across that you exerted effort, to show you care). If over time enough people invest time and effort into pointing out that you are wrong in something, you will change your mind. You might not admit it, you might not even notice it, but it will happen. You might be right that it is perhaps not the fastest or most efficient approach, when you suggested spending time and money on actually influential things (though I'm not sure what you have in mind there). Just look at the responses you have received so far here. Several people with different backgrounds have responded to you and said "you are wrong, you can change people's minds in online social interactions". Now you have a choice. Will you hold on to your (really not very good for mankind as a whole) statement, so that it self-fulfills and you can still consider your own opinion correct and your thoughts and behavior consistent? Or will you take that leap and believe people can change and act accordingly going forward? Edit: I hope you realize that if you respond to my plea with a convincing statement and I believe you and change my mind, we both enter seriously troubled waters. After all, do you really want to change my mind on the fact that one cannot change someone's mind in a social media setting, in a social media setting?

eightysixfour 9y ago

> you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. The problem is when this wrong headedness starts to interfere at a public policy level, like climate change.

the_af 9y ago
It's also extremely difficult to talk to someone who truly thinks the moon is square. Suppose I actually want to talk about the moon? Or suppose I admit there's a lot I don't know about astronomy (a fascinating subject!), and this person thinks it's an invitation to speak about astrology? What I mean is, it doesn't even have to affect public policy to be bothersome. It also affects informal small-talk with acquaintances.
- stan_rogers 9y ago
  There is, however, a rather large difference between "bothersome" and "a bunch of idiots voting for things that are going to kill people, possibly even me... and winning".
  - the_af 9y ago
    Yes, fully agreed, the latter is dangerous. The former is still annoying, though.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

danso 9y ago

As someone who has changed his mind, I've found that it is wrong to think that minds can't be changed. When people complain about how minds aren't changed, they are typically complaining about minds not changing now, i.e. At the point of debate. But minds can change over time, it's just that you don't get that immediate feedback that you want.

Hoasi 9y ago
Minds can be changed. For one, propaganda does work. If only minds could be changed using more honest means... Granted, education works too, to some degree. But that requires even more work on both parts.
sofal 9y ago
Exactly. I'm tired of self-proclaimed internet veterans witnessing people digging in on individual online conversations and then concluding that nobody ever changes their mind and all debate/discussion is pointless. I have done a 180 on so many positions I used to have thanks in no small part to people online who did not take this asinine defeatist perspective and went ahead and engaged in debate while the other side (including me) just dug their heels in during the actual conversation. I think a lot of people need to be educated about what the benefits of debate are and how they manifest slowly over time.
- worldsayshi 9y ago
  This needs to be said. I just which there was a better way to retroactively deliver that feedback. That could diminish defeatism.
- scottLobster 9y ago
  The issue is that most people on social media aren't looking for enlightenment, they're looking for validation. If they don't find it from one source they'll likely seek out a more suitable one. The only one who can change a person's mind is that person, all the rest of us can do is encourage.
  - 9y ago

thearn4 9y ago

For what it's worth, I've had luck moving some people's anti-science opinions by meeting them at their level of understanding, and offering some compassion. Might help that they are relatives and not total strangers though.

javajosh 9y ago

To me it's more like wanting your city to be a clean place. You see some trash, you pick it up and throw it in a trash can, even if it's not yours. When people have clearly wrong beliefs (e.g. a square moon), it might not matter all that much to you, but they might harm someone else by spreading the trash, or worse, connect with like-minded people and create a real danger for others (legislate pi to be 3). That mind of trash is no less a part of your environment than the physical street, and I think it's a very good thing if you make an effort to pick up the trash, even if it's not yours.

winfred 9y ago

>i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. And you learned the wrong thing. It is possible to change peoples minds and behavior with online conversation. It just isn't easy and it doesn't go quick (a single line directly pointing out a flaw often isn't enough, you have to bring across that you exerted effort, to show you care). If over time enough people invest time and effort into pointing out that you are wrong in something, you will change your mind. You might not admit it, you might not even notice it, but it will happen. You might be right that it is perhaps not the fastest or most efficient approach, when you suggested spending time and money on actually influential things (though I'm not sure what you have in mind there). Just look at the responses you have received so far here. Several people with different backgrounds have responded to you and said "you are wrong, you can change people's minds in online social interactions". Now you have a choice. Will you hold on to your (really not very good for mankind as a whole) statement, so that it self-fulfills and you can still consider your own opinion correct and your thoughts and behavior consistent? Or will you take that leap and believe people can change and act accordingly going forward? Edit: I hope you realize that if you respond to my plea with a convincing statement and I believe you and change my mind, we both enter seriously troubled waters. After all, do you really want to change my mind on the fact that one cannot change someone's mind in a social media setting, in a social media setting?