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Ask HN: What if JavaScript isn't the solution to everything

35 points by londondev45 9y ago

It's starting to feel like the JavaScript 'ecosystem' is broken. Especially npm and the proliferation of small libraries written by inexperienced developers. When is the industry going to move on? Angular is a behemoth. If the idea is to simplify with modules, I think they miss the point. The 'old' server side libraries, flask, ror, even .net MVC look elegant and simple in comparison. When will this stupidity end?

jwdunne 9y ago
Well, with Webassembly en route, there is a future where we can use whatever language we like if the can target WebAsm. Currently, there is only support for manual memory management but there are plans to expand with GC. There is certainly a horizon for expansion. We are already seeing this with languages that compile to JS. Perhaps WebAsm will provide the substrate for better engineered languages and code.
k__ 9y ago
What if it is? JS isn't that bad, the ecosystem big enough to avoid the small libs written by n00bs and easy to acces s thanks to npm. Npm isn't perfect, but better than what most languages have. Many people already know JS and it's pretty much the easiest language to get started with, you just need a browser and an editor. Most people don't use the best solution for a problem because often nobody knows what this would be, so they use what they know and make things work. English is certainly not the best language for the world, still most people speak it and make things work.
- danieltillett 9y ago
  Any suggestion on which human language is better than English?
  - atfd 9y ago
    By certain measures, one might say 'German'.
- timrichard 9y ago
  Something I've found recently on projects is that the npmcompare site makes it much easier to pick the library that has all the traction. It becomes very stark when you're comparing the package with 350k weekly downloads with one which has been downloaded by the original author and his cousin.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
psyc 9y ago
If you stop thinking like a front-end web dev, and take a step back from the whole thing, the status quo is truly insane and embarrassing. A many-billion dollar, world changing industry has been exclusively constrained to one dynamically-typed, weird language cooked up by one guy in a hurry, over 20 years ago. How can such a phenomenon even exist, without programmers falling over themselves to create a development ecosystem with compilers and multiple language paradigms? The best answer I can come up with is that the history of web development is rooted in a culture that cares only about product design, user experience, and making a million dollars fast. It took a long time for systems programmers to get interested enough to provide the perspective of, well, a systems programmer. It could be argued that not rocking the boat, and just accepting JS as the standard unconditionally, helped the web succeed. I don't agree with that. I don't see how having a good execution environment in the browser in 2004 could possibly have hurt the web.
- speg 9y ago
  Because it would have only worked for half the users. HTML/CSS/JS support parity across the browsers is a relatively new thing. If IE had python support and Firefox supported Ruby, what would have all the websites been written in? It's kind of a messy miracle that that didn't happen and we got to where we are today. Now, with established standards support WebAssembly might be the next step you're looking for.
  - true_religion 9y ago
    I may be the minority but I don't consider it a burden to need more than one app for something. Even today people have installed a half dozen chat apps to keep up with friends on different networks. If half the sites require Firefox and half Chrome then that's still only two apps enabling dozens of web apps for daily use.
    - mcphage 9y ago
      You're in the minority.
sitkack 9y ago
I'd probably have to re-evaluate all of my life choices. This question is just too hard to consider.
tumblen 9y ago
The javascript ecosystem is feeling better than ever to me right now. The only reason that people are getting "javascript fatigue" and complaining that JS is being used for everything is because so many people are working so hard to improve and innovate the language/ecosystem... and so many people are actually finding applicable benefit to that work. I've built several native iOS apps in Ruby with RubyMotion - no one was upset about Ruby fatigue or that Ruby is being used in a new context... Because why would they? There's nothing to complain about! It's just a product created by people working hard to provide value in a new way. And that's what people are doing in the JS world too. There's just way more of them and way more people using and applying that work, so it starts to feel overwhelming. But that is not the fault of the language or the community. No one is forcing anyone to use any language or framework. No one is forcing anyone to use any particular software. Pick the ones best for your needs — why pull down all the people working so hard on JS along the way?
- ZanrielJames 9y ago
  The job market right now is pretty heavily skewed towards the whole JS stack, so your last comment is almost like "nobody's got to use the internet".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pryelluw 9y ago
No language or technology is the solution to everything. In fact, they all suck in one form or another. Your job is to pick those that fit the problem at hand well. That's why learning multiple languages, and designs. You are the one size fits most solution. Study and learn and the feeling of everything being stupid should be reduced (never gone but thats good).
mdholloway 9y ago
You can avoid the marginal libraries written by inexperienced developers, you know.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hasenj 9y ago
Madness never ends. You can be sane and stick to few well engineered libraries and ignore the hype.
carsongross 9y ago
Javascript is always dramatically overused at the top of every market cycle: DHTML in 1999, Web 2.0 in 2008, Angular/React/etc now. This too shall pass. And then reappear, worse. If you are truly sick of javascript, I have something for you: http://intercoolerjs.org http://intercoolerjs.org
fidz 9y ago
Why this was flagged?
- Can_Not 9y ago
  OP thinks pretends like Angular is the only JS library, obviously did zero research (expressjs is like flask), then baits further with "When will this stupidity end?"

35 points by londondev45 9y ago

jwdunne 9y ago

Well, with Webassembly en route, there is a future where we can use whatever language we like if the can target WebAsm. Currently, there is only support for manual memory management but there are plans to expand with GC. There is certainly a horizon for expansion. We are already seeing this with languages that compile to JS. Perhaps WebAsm will provide the substrate for better engineered languages and code.

k__ 9y ago

What if it is? JS isn't that bad, the ecosystem big enough to avoid the small libs written by n00bs and easy to acces s thanks to npm. Npm isn't perfect, but better than what most languages have. Many people already know JS and it's pretty much the easiest language to get started with, you just need a browser and an editor. Most people don't use the best solution for a problem because often nobody knows what this would be, so they use what they know and make things work. English is certainly not the best language for the world, still most people speak it and make things work.

danieltillett 9y ago
Any suggestion on which human language is better than English?
- atfd 9y ago
  By certain measures, one might say 'German'.
timrichard 9y ago
Something I've found recently on projects is that the npmcompare site makes it much easier to pick the library that has all the traction. It becomes very stark when you're comparing the package with 350k weekly downloads with one which has been downloaded by the original author and his cousin.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

psyc 9y ago

If you stop thinking like a front-end web dev, and take a step back from the whole thing, the status quo is truly insane and embarrassing. A many-billion dollar, world changing industry has been exclusively constrained to one dynamically-typed, weird language cooked up by one guy in a hurry, over 20 years ago. How can such a phenomenon even exist, without programmers falling over themselves to create a development ecosystem with compilers and multiple language paradigms? The best answer I can come up with is that the history of web development is rooted in a culture that cares only about product design, user experience, and making a million dollars fast. It took a long time for systems programmers to get interested enough to provide the perspective of, well, a systems programmer. It could be argued that not rocking the boat, and just accepting JS as the standard unconditionally, helped the web succeed. I don't agree with that. I don't see how having a good execution environment in the browser in 2004 could possibly have hurt the web.

speg 9y ago
Because it would have only worked for half the users. HTML/CSS/JS support parity across the browsers is a relatively new thing. If IE had python support and Firefox supported Ruby, what would have all the websites been written in? It's kind of a messy miracle that that didn't happen and we got to where we are today. Now, with established standards support WebAssembly might be the next step you're looking for.
- true_religion 9y ago
  I may be the minority but I don't consider it a burden to need more than one app for something. Even today people have installed a half dozen chat apps to keep up with friends on different networks. If half the sites require Firefox and half Chrome then that's still only two apps enabling dozens of web apps for daily use.
  - mcphage 9y ago
    You're in the minority.

sitkack 9y ago

I'd probably have to re-evaluate all of my life choices. This question is just too hard to consider.

tumblen 9y ago

The javascript ecosystem is feeling better than ever to me right now. The only reason that people are getting "javascript fatigue" and complaining that JS is being used for everything is because so many people are working so hard to improve and innovate the language/ecosystem... and so many people are actually finding applicable benefit to that work. I've built several native iOS apps in Ruby with RubyMotion - no one was upset about Ruby fatigue or that Ruby is being used in a new context... Because why would they? There's nothing to complain about! It's just a product created by people working hard to provide value in a new way. And that's what people are doing in the JS world too. There's just way more of them and way more people using and applying that work, so it starts to feel overwhelming. But that is not the fault of the language or the community. No one is forcing anyone to use any language or framework. No one is forcing anyone to use any particular software. Pick the ones best for your needs — why pull down all the people working so hard on JS along the way?

ZanrielJames 9y ago
The job market right now is pretty heavily skewed towards the whole JS stack, so your last comment is almost like "nobody's got to use the internet".

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pryelluw 9y ago

No language or technology is the solution to everything. In fact, they all suck in one form or another. Your job is to pick those that fit the problem at hand well. That's why learning multiple languages, and designs. You are the one size fits most solution. Study and learn and the feeling of everything being stupid should be reduced (never gone but thats good).

mdholloway 9y ago

You can avoid the marginal libraries written by inexperienced developers, you know.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

hasenj 9y ago

Madness never ends. You can be sane and stick to few well engineered libraries and ignore the hype.

carsongross 9y ago

Javascript is always dramatically overused at the top of every market cycle: DHTML in 1999, Web 2.0 in 2008, Angular/React/etc now. This too shall pass. And then reappear, worse. If you are truly sick of javascript, I have something for you: http://intercoolerjs.org http://intercoolerjs.org

fidz 9y ago

Why this was flagged?

Can_Not 9y ago
OP thinks pretends like Angular is the only JS library, obviously did zero research (expressjs is like flask), then baits further with "When will this stupidity end?"