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Hmmm... I hate to say it, but spoken like someone who's never been out of work against their will for any length of time. I realise you're trying to make an ar

Hmmm... I hate to say it, but spoken like someone who's never been out of work against their will for any length of time. I realise you're trying to make an argument in defence of the welfare state but you sound like you're suggesting that people should just accept their own obsolescence and be grateful for government handouts. Most people would have a tough time swallowing that and I can't say I'd blame them.

cbhl 10y ago
I guess the thing I don't understand is, if we gave e.g. coal miners UBI, wouldn't that enable them to continue mining coal for fun? We could just get rid of the using it for energy part.
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  the self-esteem value in work isn't necessarily just in the doing. It's knowing you're providing a service to society (and more importantly, your family and local community), that you're working as part of a team who support each other, the social aspects of shared experiences and probably many other reasons I can't think of right now. I can't imagine mining coal to be independently fun in the way that programming or design can be.
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    You can provide a service to society without traditional work paid for by a company - many do. And UBI would not prevent people from seeking out traditional work.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  Lol, I think an important part of the coal issue is that those who were employed as miners were comparatively very well paid, like around twice a teacher's salary (anecdotally: dad was teacher, football coach was miner). Those that could get jobs were often taking a hefty pay cut too, and a cut in social status. Mining had a romantic "powerful men working against nature, and amidst untold dangers, to 'keep the lights on' for every home and industry" ethos that cleaning dishes in a pub kitchen doesn't. Having UBI should mean people have some money to live on but we can't then be complacent with our resources and waste them mining for a hobby. We need to redirect people to find esteem in useful work (building community, reducing waste, generating value).
  - pm90 10y ago
    > We need to redirect people to find esteem in useful work (building community, reducing waste, generating value). I think this is the most important revelation. While I'm a proponent of the UBI as well, I think this is the harder part which we need to find a good solution to; it seems likely that if you give free money to all the opiod addicts, its only going to make their problems worse (making a really huge generalization here; not suggesting all unemployed people are addicts).
- timrichard 10y ago
  That would be UBI plus increased healthcare costs for lung diseases.
SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
He's saying those people need to find a new socially beneficial purpose, and that having a dole keeps their families from starving while they do so. It's a fact some jobs will become obsolete over time, and those people should be happy that the dole is there to pay for their retraining rather than letting them starve when their craft becomes obsolete. It sucks for them their trade died, but how is it remotely bad the government helps them stay afloat so they can retrain? No one is saying they should just linger doing nothing.
- wahern 10y ago
  You can tell people what they should do until the cows come home. But they may never come around. Worse, if they have greater voting power than you then _you'll_ be the one dragged kicking and screaming into an inhospitable future. UBI could be great in theory. People _should_ learn how to find purpose in life outside the traditional labor culture. And maybe one day they will. In the meantime we have Donald Trump and Brexit. Neither is the end of the world, but they're strong hints that things can go sideways real quick unless you take political viability seriously.
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    UBI isn't only great in theory, a number of countries are only a finger's breadth away from having implemented it. I live in Germany. There's no way for me to not be under health insurance (working without is actually illegal and the state pays it for unemployed people). If i lose my job the state keeps paying me 70% of my original wage for an amount of time proportional to how long i worked, and after that drops me to a base level i can live on (though possibly i would need to move). The only things i need to do to keep receiving it is to prove i keep applying for jobs by sending them application copies twice a month, and to not reject reasonable job offers the work bureau sends my way. (And yes, people have rejected such and sued and won in court, with no extra cost to them.) And even beyond that, there's a minimum wage, and even a state income offset program to allow people with extraordinary expenses (caring for sick relatives, etc.) to receive money if their income minus said expenses falls under a certain limit, equivalent to people on long term unemployment aid. It's implemented in various different programs, and not in one neat bundle, but in terms of real-politik UBI is already here. Sure, people can still live in poverty even here, but this is not due to a lack of aid, but due to people's own decisions. (Continuing to live in expensive areas, refusing to get aid, etc.)
TeMPOraL 10y ago
I haven't been out of work against my will, but I have been without pay against my will, so I can relate. Still, the point of welfare is to let people survive and retrain if that's what needed to find a new job. Job obsolescence is only going to be a fact of life now, and I can't see fighting it as something good. Jobs are means to an end. I believe society will need to redefine its attitude towards jobs; UBI is meant to let people survive that process. Still, regardless of my arguments, facts on the ground are that it really sucks to find oneself obsolete and unemployable. I understand that. But I believe that trying to prevent it by inventing more bullshit jobs is a solution worse than the problem itself.
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  > I haven't been out of work against my will, but I have been without pay against my will, so I can relate. No you can't. The whole discussion here is around the impact of _not working_ on one's self-esteem, not the impact of not being paid. Unless you've spent considerable time with nothing productive to do, you really can't relate. You may have an image in your head that with all that spare time you'll complete your side projects or do that DIY project you've been putting off, but the reality is that you stay productive for a few weeks to a month and then sink into a rut.
  - pbhjpbhj 10y ago
    Are you talking from your own experience here, I can't see the sort of person who can take initiative to complete a programming project or start a business being able to come to a position where they can't find something productive to do?
    - beaconstudios 10y ago
      Really? I know lots of people who start but don't finish side projects. I also know a few people who've been jobless for longer periods and many of them start to lose their drive and initiative. The longest I've been out of work was 6 weeks between contracts and by week 4 I was starting to get into a rut.

cbhl 10y ago

I guess the thing I don't understand is, if we gave e.g. coal miners UBI, wouldn't that enable them to continue mining coal for fun? We could just get rid of the using it for energy part.

beaconstudios 10y ago
the self-esteem value in work isn't necessarily just in the doing. It's knowing you're providing a service to society (and more importantly, your family and local community), that you're working as part of a team who support each other, the social aspects of shared experiences and probably many other reasons I can't think of right now. I can't imagine mining coal to be independently fun in the way that programming or design can be.
- vertex-four 10y ago
  You can provide a service to society without traditional work paid for by a company - many do. And UBI would not prevent people from seeking out traditional work.
pbhjpbhj 10y ago
Lol, I think an important part of the coal issue is that those who were employed as miners were comparatively very well paid, like around twice a teacher's salary (anecdotally: dad was teacher, football coach was miner). Those that could get jobs were often taking a hefty pay cut too, and a cut in social status. Mining had a romantic "powerful men working against nature, and amidst untold dangers, to 'keep the lights on' for every home and industry" ethos that cleaning dishes in a pub kitchen doesn't. Having UBI should mean people have some money to live on but we can't then be complacent with our resources and waste them mining for a hobby. We need to redirect people to find esteem in useful work (building community, reducing waste, generating value).
- pm90 10y ago
  > We need to redirect people to find esteem in useful work (building community, reducing waste, generating value). I think this is the most important revelation. While I'm a proponent of the UBI as well, I think this is the harder part which we need to find a good solution to; it seems likely that if you give free money to all the opiod addicts, its only going to make their problems worse (making a really huge generalization here; not suggesting all unemployed people are addicts).
timrichard 10y ago
That would be UBI plus increased healthcare costs for lung diseases.

SomeStupidPoint 10y ago

He's saying those people need to find a new socially beneficial purpose, and that having a dole keeps their families from starving while they do so. It's a fact some jobs will become obsolete over time, and those people should be happy that the dole is there to pay for their retraining rather than letting them starve when their craft becomes obsolete. It sucks for them their trade died, but how is it remotely bad the government helps them stay afloat so they can retrain? No one is saying they should just linger doing nothing.

wahern 10y ago
You can tell people what they should do until the cows come home. But they may never come around. Worse, if they have greater voting power than you then _you'll_ be the one dragged kicking and screaming into an inhospitable future. UBI could be great in theory. People _should_ learn how to find purpose in life outside the traditional labor culture. And maybe one day they will. In the meantime we have Donald Trump and Brexit. Neither is the end of the world, but they're strong hints that things can go sideways real quick unless you take political viability seriously.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  UBI isn't only great in theory, a number of countries are only a finger's breadth away from having implemented it. I live in Germany. There's no way for me to not be under health insurance (working without is actually illegal and the state pays it for unemployed people). If i lose my job the state keeps paying me 70% of my original wage for an amount of time proportional to how long i worked, and after that drops me to a base level i can live on (though possibly i would need to move). The only things i need to do to keep receiving it is to prove i keep applying for jobs by sending them application copies twice a month, and to not reject reasonable job offers the work bureau sends my way. (And yes, people have rejected such and sued and won in court, with no extra cost to them.) And even beyond that, there's a minimum wage, and even a state income offset program to allow people with extraordinary expenses (caring for sick relatives, etc.) to receive money if their income minus said expenses falls under a certain limit, equivalent to people on long term unemployment aid. It's implemented in various different programs, and not in one neat bundle, but in terms of real-politik UBI is already here. Sure, people can still live in poverty even here, but this is not due to a lack of aid, but due to people's own decisions. (Continuing to live in expensive areas, refusing to get aid, etc.)

TeMPOraL 10y ago

I haven't been out of work against my will, but I have been without pay against my will, so I can relate. Still, the point of welfare is to let people survive and retrain if that's what needed to find a new job. Job obsolescence is only going to be a fact of life now, and I can't see fighting it as something good. Jobs are means to an end. I believe society will need to redefine its attitude towards jobs; UBI is meant to let people survive that process. Still, regardless of my arguments, facts on the ground are that it really sucks to find oneself obsolete and unemployable. I understand that. But I believe that trying to prevent it by inventing more bullshit jobs is a solution worse than the problem itself.

beaconstudios 10y ago
> I haven't been out of work against my will, but I have been without pay against my will, so I can relate. No you can't. The whole discussion here is around the impact of _not working_ on one's self-esteem, not the impact of not being paid. Unless you've spent considerable time with nothing productive to do, you really can't relate. You may have an image in your head that with all that spare time you'll complete your side projects or do that DIY project you've been putting off, but the reality is that you stay productive for a few weeks to a month and then sink into a rut.
- pbhjpbhj 10y ago
  Are you talking from your own experience here, I can't see the sort of person who can take initiative to complete a programming project or start a business being able to come to a position where they can't find something productive to do?
  - beaconstudios 10y ago
    Really? I know lots of people who start but don't finish side projects. I also know a few people who've been jobless for longer periods and many of them start to lose their drive and initiative. The longest I've been out of work was 6 weeks between contracts and by week 4 I was starting to get into a rut.