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Russia has a very low birth rate for native Russians. Here in the US, having kids and working in engineering is difficult. My wife took 5 years off and it has

by madengr 10y ago

Russia has a very low birth rate for native Russians. Here in the US, having kids and working in engineering is difficult. My wife took 5 years off and it has definitely affected her pay and advancement. Low pay and little vacation maybe have something to do with it too. Both the wife and I are engineers. Our daughter shows no interest in tech. She does like to mix stuff, so maybe Chem E. Though I'm not going to prod her. STEM just does not pay over the long term.

drittich 10y ago
>STEM just does not pay over the long term. Whaa? What's your definition of pay? Anyway, IMO no prodding needed - expose the child to a wide variety of things, and then help them find and nurture their passion.
- madengr 10y ago
  $100k - $200k long term (ages 30 - 67). STEM has initial high pay, but tops out by middle age. Late middle age, or 55+, and you are a target for elimination. My coworkers daughter and her husband are both accountants. In their mid 30's they are doing much better than any STEM majors. They will both be firm partners by 40. +200k salaries for two people over 27 years (not that they'd work to 67 anyway). I know of a mechanical engineer who went into finance. Not a quant, or even in NY. Just a manager for VISA. Her bonus is larger than my salary, and so is her salary. STEM, well really TE, need to bank that initial high salary for, often forced, early retirement. SM majors, you are just fucked.
  - sanswork 10y ago
    Most accountants will never make partner. You are taking two exceptions and comparing them to the whole population. You should be comparing them to people who become CTOs. Besides that most people will never even make half of your lower end salary during their whole career.
    - kamaal 10y ago
      This very true. Women or Men, most people I know who go into non-STEM fields sooner or later have to negotiate with the fact there is nothing special going to happen in their lives forever. Here in India some people even believe its rather better to be a plumber or an electrician than do non-STEM degrees. Former helps you develop some skills. Compared to getting a degree in commerce and finding your whole education could be replaced by spread sheet macros.
      - douche 10y ago
        > Here in India some people even believe its rather better to be a plumber or an electrician than do non-STEM degrees That's the advice I would give most people in the United States as well. Plumbers and electricians can make bank, and it is something almost anyone can be trained to do well. Far better than trying to go to college, and either dropping out after a few semesters, or graduating with a useless degree - either way amassing many thousands of dollars of debt.
    - madengr 10y ago
      Well I suppose STEM is now a path to the middle class. Everything else is working poor. STEM used to be upper middle class. A dude driving a forklift was middle class. My advice (not that anyone asked) for STEM graduates: 1) Immediately max 401k contribution. Hopefully you'll get a employer match, but none is common these days. Should have no problem getting $1M by age 55, though more is better. 2) 15 year mortgage on a house. So buying a house in your 30's you'll own it by late 40's 3) Don't have kids until 30's. Tech pays well (initially), but require along hours. Be prepared to do nothing but work in your 20's 4) $80k educational savings for each kid. As they will need that by your late 40's or early 50's. That should minimally pay for 4 year degree at State U, and kept them from being saddled with debt upon graduation. Remember 55 is elderly. So by early 50's you want no mortgage, no education funding requirements, home ownership, and at least $1M in retirement savings. So when you are targeted for elimination, at least you can join the working poor; i.e. $30k/year household income (401k interest only) and no medical benefits. Ideally you'd have $2M in savings. That will get you to $60k/year so you can afford health insurance and cruise it out till medicare at 63. If you have any sort of medical needs at that age, with no health insurance, you are truly fucked, as heart/brain surgery is $300k minimum. Though I believe their are laws to prevent debt collection from retirement savings.
  - ralfd 10y ago
    The median wage in the US is $39k for full time workers. You are speaking about people at the top or people who lucked out.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    I don't mean to be rude when I say this but you are very out of touch with reality and what's a good income. $100k - $200k a year puts you, individually, over, at the very minimum, the 75th percentile income for American household. Also, your friends aren't even close to typical accountant salary, median pay $68,150 per year - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/accountants-and-auditors.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/accountants-a... Compare that to the typical software salary, median pay $102,280 per year - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      > for American household I think OP is talking relative to other skilled vocations, i.e what a potential STEM student might do instead. If you have the opportunity to choose STEM, you are already at a certain level of opportunity. > median pay $68,150 per year How do you compare medians? What if there are more young software developers than young accountants?
thriftwy 10y ago
> Russia has a very low birth rate for native Russians That was true 20 years ago but no longer true today. Russia is in a period of relative baby boom and fertility rate is now higher than in most European countries (except France, Sweden and Ireland I believe). It's already quite difficult to put kids in school! Of course the effect is bound to peter out in a coming decade.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Does this count for native Russians and Europeans? Europe for the most part has a negative native birth rate, the positive birth rates come from immigrants.
  - thriftwy 10y ago
    With all the huge number of immigrants there are, they're still at around 20% of population in most countries and thus unable to seriously "move the needle" on fertility rate.
- PerfectDlite 10y ago
  > That was true 20 years ago but no longer true today. It is still true for _native_ Russians, not Russian-based immigrants from neighbouring states.
  - thriftwy 10y ago
    No it is not. You're hugely overrepresenting "immigrants from neighbouring states" contributions in a country with 145 mln citizens, of which 83% are "native Russians"
bkkssnn 10y ago
Why did your wife take 5 years off "because kids"?
- madengr 10y ago
  Trade off of salary vs day care costs. Two kids spaced 2 years. We hired a nanny for 5 months until the youngest was old enough for pre-school.

by madengr 10y ago

drittich 10y ago

>STEM just does not pay over the long term. Whaa? What's your definition of pay? Anyway, IMO no prodding needed - expose the child to a wide variety of things, and then help them find and nurture their passion.

madengr 10y ago
$100k - $200k long term (ages 30 - 67). STEM has initial high pay, but tops out by middle age. Late middle age, or 55+, and you are a target for elimination. My coworkers daughter and her husband are both accountants. In their mid 30's they are doing much better than any STEM majors. They will both be firm partners by 40. +200k salaries for two people over 27 years (not that they'd work to 67 anyway). I know of a mechanical engineer who went into finance. Not a quant, or even in NY. Just a manager for VISA. Her bonus is larger than my salary, and so is her salary. STEM, well really TE, need to bank that initial high salary for, often forced, early retirement. SM majors, you are just fucked.
- sanswork 10y ago
  Most accountants will never make partner. You are taking two exceptions and comparing them to the whole population. You should be comparing them to people who become CTOs. Besides that most people will never even make half of your lower end salary during their whole career.
  - kamaal 10y ago
    This very true. Women or Men, most people I know who go into non-STEM fields sooner or later have to negotiate with the fact there is nothing special going to happen in their lives forever. Here in India some people even believe its rather better to be a plumber or an electrician than do non-STEM degrees. Former helps you develop some skills. Compared to getting a degree in commerce and finding your whole education could be replaced by spread sheet macros.
    - douche 10y ago
      > Here in India some people even believe its rather better to be a plumber or an electrician than do non-STEM degrees That's the advice I would give most people in the United States as well. Plumbers and electricians can make bank, and it is something almost anyone can be trained to do well. Far better than trying to go to college, and either dropping out after a few semesters, or graduating with a useless degree - either way amassing many thousands of dollars of debt.
  - madengr 10y ago
    Well I suppose STEM is now a path to the middle class. Everything else is working poor. STEM used to be upper middle class. A dude driving a forklift was middle class. My advice (not that anyone asked) for STEM graduates: 1) Immediately max 401k contribution. Hopefully you'll get a employer match, but none is common these days. Should have no problem getting $1M by age 55, though more is better. 2) 15 year mortgage on a house. So buying a house in your 30's you'll own it by late 40's 3) Don't have kids until 30's. Tech pays well (initially), but require along hours. Be prepared to do nothing but work in your 20's 4) $80k educational savings for each kid. As they will need that by your late 40's or early 50's. That should minimally pay for 4 year degree at State U, and kept them from being saddled with debt upon graduation. Remember 55 is elderly. So by early 50's you want no mortgage, no education funding requirements, home ownership, and at least $1M in retirement savings. So when you are targeted for elimination, at least you can join the working poor; i.e. $30k/year household income (401k interest only) and no medical benefits. Ideally you'd have $2M in savings. That will get you to $60k/year so you can afford health insurance and cruise it out till medicare at 63. If you have any sort of medical needs at that age, with no health insurance, you are truly fucked, as heart/brain surgery is $300k minimum. Though I believe their are laws to prevent debt collection from retirement savings.
- ralfd 10y ago
  The median wage in the US is $39k for full time workers. You are speaking about people at the top or people who lucked out.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  I don't mean to be rude when I say this but you are very out of touch with reality and what's a good income. $100k - $200k a year puts you, individually, over, at the very minimum, the 75th percentile income for American household. Also, your friends aren't even close to typical accountant salary, median pay $68,150 per year - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/accountants-and-auditors.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/accountants-a... Compare that to the typical software salary, median pay $102,280 per year - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > for American household I think OP is talking relative to other skilled vocations, i.e what a potential STEM student might do instead. If you have the opportunity to choose STEM, you are already at a certain level of opportunity. > median pay $68,150 per year How do you compare medians? What if there are more young software developers than young accountants?

thriftwy 10y ago

> Russia has a very low birth rate for native Russians That was true 20 years ago but no longer true today. Russia is in a period of relative baby boom and fertility rate is now higher than in most European countries (except France, Sweden and Ireland I believe). It's already quite difficult to put kids in school! Of course the effect is bound to peter out in a coming decade.

dogma1138 10y ago
Does this count for native Russians and Europeans? Europe for the most part has a negative native birth rate, the positive birth rates come from immigrants.
- thriftwy 10y ago
  With all the huge number of immigrants there are, they're still at around 20% of population in most countries and thus unable to seriously "move the needle" on fertility rate.
PerfectDlite 10y ago
> That was true 20 years ago but no longer true today. It is still true for _native_ Russians, not Russian-based immigrants from neighbouring states.
- thriftwy 10y ago
  No it is not. You're hugely overrepresenting "immigrants from neighbouring states" contributions in a country with 145 mln citizens, of which 83% are "native Russians"

bkkssnn 10y ago

Why did your wife take 5 years off "because kids"?

madengr 10y ago
Trade off of salary vs day care costs. Two kids spaced 2 years. We hired a nanny for 5 months until the youngest was old enough for pre-school.