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“America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree, and I don’t think that’s going to get better anytime soon,” said Angus Deaton, a Nobel

by ams6110 10y ago

“America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree, and I don’t think that’s going to get better anytime soon,” said Angus Deaton, a Nobel Prize-winning Princeton University economist. Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated. The truth is, US high schools miserably fail the non-college-bound student. I know people without college degrees who make six-figure incomes in the trades or as entrepreneurs. They did not get there with any help from high school guidance counselors or administrators (all college-educated), who basically write you off if you are not college-bound or come from an impoverished background. The message from traditional education for anyone not going to college is "you have no future" rather than helping to explore the limitless expanse of possibilities that are open to anyone who has the motivation and encouragement to pursue them.

Jtsummers 10y ago
Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. ^^^^^^^ Surprised to see this on HN. Anyways, it's not just a point of view, it's backed by data. Only having a high school diploma is objectively worse (with regards to both financial and physical well-being amongst other metrics). It's not looking down on the less-educated, it's pointing out that the circumstances are bad for them. My English and history PhD friends are in worse positions too (at least financially) despite being a hell of a lot better educated than me.
vajrabum 10y ago
You're talking about possibility. The economist is talking about what's actually happening. Two different things. You have a point they're not unrelated. You can indeed help individuals by pointing them in the right direction, but that's unlikely to scale given limited opportunities. Most people are not suited to be entrepreneurs, in this culture at least, and there are a limited number of trade jobs.
rfc 10y ago
This. 1,000x. Some of the most successful folks I know went into trade, became "masters of their domains", and then bridge their skills with business to create their own businesses. As an example: A friend from back home got into boring right out of high school. 20 years later, he runs one of the most successful directional boring companies in the region and is a multi-multi millionaire. He was told in high school that if he didn't go to college that he would fail. I don't find this to be a unique story from my perspective but I do have some bias.
- anigbrowl 10y ago
  No offense, but isn't this just anecdata? I don't deny that people can do extremely well taking non-traditional paths, they certainly can. But pointing out the existence of exceptions isn't a substantive response to the observations about the larger trend. You can always find exceptions to any trend but generalizing from them is fallacious, as any casino owner will be glad to confirm.
  - chrshawkes 10y ago
    I personally make close to 150k per year as a developer and a YouTube personality. I didn't go to college.
    - throwanem 10y ago
      > But pointing out the existence of exceptions isn't a substantive response to the observations about the larger trend. I'm an exception, too. I'm not about to argue that, because I exist, the trend doesn't.
- okreallywtf 10y ago
  Do you think that this result is available to everyone willing to work hard? If you come out of high-school and don't achieve this level of success did you fail or are people this outliers? We should try to make a path for success at all levels of education provided you are willing to work for it and not put all our hopes on high-performers and or lucky people.
  - rfc 10y ago
    I'm sure I'll get down voted for this comment but yes, I actually do think this result is available to everyone willing to work hard but not the only reason. The town I grew up in was very polarizing. We had both extreme wealth and extreme poor. As a retrospective, we had very equal opportunities from all income brackets. There were wealthy kids who had huge success but many others who fizzled out and didn't do anything. Some ended up with extensive criminal records. On the opposite end of the spectrum, some of the extremely poor kids I grew up with could barely afford ramen as a family. Some ended up drug dealing and in jail, others ended up with massive success. There were a few key attributes that I think determined success vs. failure for all wealth brackets. We had some very key teachers in shop classes who encouraged folks who didn't think they could go to college to specialize in trade skills. Those who took it seriously and worked hard at it are largely stable or well off. Those who didn't fizzled out. Obviously this is all anecdotal as it was one graduating class in one city in one state. However, in my own experience the desire to work hard dictates much of the success of an individual. It would be foolish to say that it is the ONLY thing contributing to success but I believe that it is a large portion of it. Also, that word "lucky" drives me nuts but I'll save that for another time :)
anigbrowl 10y ago
Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated. Commenting that 'America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree' is not looking down on the less educated, it's an observation about how society at large treats the less educated. Between this and your description of one of the world's leading economic thinkers as a 'Princeton egghead', It's hard to give much weight to anything else you say.
kalmari 10y ago
how are we defining success. also colledge never neccissarily meant rich. there is the pursuit of knowledge(among other things) which was a lot harder without the access we have today.
faet 10y ago
He's not looking down upon them, he's stating that on average they'll be worse off. Your anecdote doesn't jive with the data. In this day in age a college degree gives you a much higher chance of success/income. Median net worth is 8x higher for those with a college degree. And salary is almost 18k/year higher. In the past the gap was much smaller. It's been growing and will likely continue to grow. [0]https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income...
ocschwar 10y ago
"Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated." How is this "looking down"? He made a well-backed empirical observation: life in this country sucks donkey balls for those who didn't graduate from college.
jdmichal 10y ago
Germany has a split education system, where only college-bound students attend what we would call "high school" in the US. Others attend what are essentially trade schools, with strong industry ties and apprenticeship programs.

by ams6110 10y ago

Jtsummers 10y ago

Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. ^^^^^^^ Surprised to see this on HN. Anyways, it's not just a point of view, it's backed by data. Only having a high school diploma is objectively worse (with regards to both financial and physical well-being amongst other metrics). It's not looking down on the less-educated, it's pointing out that the circumstances are bad for them. My English and history PhD friends are in worse positions too (at least financially) despite being a hell of a lot better educated than me.

vajrabum 10y ago

You're talking about possibility. The economist is talking about what's actually happening. Two different things. You have a point they're not unrelated. You can indeed help individuals by pointing them in the right direction, but that's unlikely to scale given limited opportunities. Most people are not suited to be entrepreneurs, in this culture at least, and there are a limited number of trade jobs.

rfc 10y ago

This. 1,000x. Some of the most successful folks I know went into trade, became "masters of their domains", and then bridge their skills with business to create their own businesses. As an example: A friend from back home got into boring right out of high school. 20 years later, he runs one of the most successful directional boring companies in the region and is a multi-multi millionaire. He was told in high school that if he didn't go to college that he would fail. I don't find this to be a unique story from my perspective but I do have some bias.

anigbrowl 10y ago
No offense, but isn't this just anecdata? I don't deny that people can do extremely well taking non-traditional paths, they certainly can. But pointing out the existence of exceptions isn't a substantive response to the observations about the larger trend. You can always find exceptions to any trend but generalizing from them is fallacious, as any casino owner will be glad to confirm.
- chrshawkes 10y ago
  I personally make close to 150k per year as a developer and a YouTube personality. I didn't go to college.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    > But pointing out the existence of exceptions isn't a substantive response to the observations about the larger trend. I'm an exception, too. I'm not about to argue that, because I exist, the trend doesn't.
okreallywtf 10y ago
Do you think that this result is available to everyone willing to work hard? If you come out of high-school and don't achieve this level of success did you fail or are people this outliers? We should try to make a path for success at all levels of education provided you are willing to work for it and not put all our hopes on high-performers and or lucky people.
- rfc 10y ago
  I'm sure I'll get down voted for this comment but yes, I actually do think this result is available to everyone willing to work hard but not the only reason. The town I grew up in was very polarizing. We had both extreme wealth and extreme poor. As a retrospective, we had very equal opportunities from all income brackets. There were wealthy kids who had huge success but many others who fizzled out and didn't do anything. Some ended up with extensive criminal records. On the opposite end of the spectrum, some of the extremely poor kids I grew up with could barely afford ramen as a family. Some ended up drug dealing and in jail, others ended up with massive success. There were a few key attributes that I think determined success vs. failure for all wealth brackets. We had some very key teachers in shop classes who encouraged folks who didn't think they could go to college to specialize in trade skills. Those who took it seriously and worked hard at it are largely stable or well off. Those who didn't fizzled out. Obviously this is all anecdotal as it was one graduating class in one city in one state. However, in my own experience the desire to work hard dictates much of the success of an individual. It would be foolish to say that it is the ONLY thing contributing to success but I believe that it is a large portion of it. Also, that word "lucky" drives me nuts but I'll save that for another time :)

anigbrowl 10y ago

Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated. Commenting that 'America is not a great place for people with only a high school degree' is not looking down on the less educated, it's an observation about how society at large treats the less educated. Between this and your description of one of the world's leading economic thinkers as a 'Princeton egghead', It's hard to give much weight to anything else you say.

kalmari 10y ago

how are we defining success. also colledge never neccissarily meant rich. there is the pursuit of knowledge(among other things) which was a lot harder without the access we have today.

faet 10y ago

He's not looking down upon them, he's stating that on average they'll be worse off. Your anecdote doesn't jive with the data. In this day in age a college degree gives you a much higher chance of success/income. Median net worth is 8x higher for those with a college degree. And salary is almost 18k/year higher. In the past the gap was much smaller. It's been growing and will likely continue to grow. [0]https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income-gap-between-young-college-and-high-school-grads-widens https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/02/11/study-income...

ocschwar 10y ago

"Coming from a Princeton egghead that's not a surprising point of view. It seems very typical for those with education to look down upon the less-educated." How is this "looking down"? He made a well-backed empirical observation: life in this country sucks donkey balls for those who didn't graduate from college.

jdmichal 10y ago

Germany has a split education system, where only college-bound students attend what we would call "high school" in the US. Others attend what are essentially trade schools, with strong industry ties and apprenticeship programs.