6 ms·

The sad thing that I've observed is that any mention that this gets in the media or any earnest attempt to address this gets met with: "Oh now that it's white

The sad thing that I've observed is that any mention that this gets in the media or any earnest attempt to address this gets met with: "Oh now that it's white people dealing with drugs, it's a crisis. America is so racist". That's a load of crap on so many levels. I hope we figure out our next chapter here as a society.

ChrisLTD 9y ago
Why is it a load of crap on so many levels? To take one example, the media and politicians have put a huge spotlight on the plight of coal and manufacturing job losses, while only recently did we learn that in fact we're losing even more retail jobs. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/the-silent-crisis-of-retail-employment/523428/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/the-sil... Want to guess at the racial and gender makeup of those manufacturing jobs vs. retail?
- fav_collector 9y ago
  You're sort of proving his point. Manufacturing and coal towns are isolated. Manufacturing and coal are sometimes literally the only fields with jobs available in those towns. Retail is generally located in places with many opportunities
  - nonaime 9y ago
    But you've missed his point about the racial gender make up of those who are employed in those types of jobs. Especially in places with "many opportunities".
- jnicholasp 9y ago
  I'm not making an argument here, since I don't know the answer to my question, but is it possible that a higher proportion of coal and manufacturing jobs were traditionally living wage, support-a-family type jobs, as compared to retail jobs? And if so, wouldn't it be reasonable to focus attention on the losses in the two categories somewhat differently?
  - ChrisLTD 9y ago
    That's an interesting point, but it leads me to a different conclusion. Given the higher numbers of people employed in retail, shouldn't we focus more attention on the fact that those jobs can't support a family?
    - wcummings 9y ago
      Harder to unionize service and retail workers unfortunately.
    - jnicholasp 9y ago
      > those jobs can't support a family Should they be able to? Absent some kind of deliberate regulatory or collective-bargaining action to prop up the price of labor in a given category, I assume the prevailing wages tend to reflect an implicit agreement between employers and potential employees on what that labor is worth. What is the argument for propping up the price of labor beyond what people are willing to do it for? Or, put another way, what is the argument for why jobs should be seen as existing for the sake of giving workers enough money to live on, rather than as existing because some people want certain things done and are willing to pay a certain amount to have them done? In the second case, the value of having certain things done is not infinitely variable: some actions will create x value in the world, and can only be worth doing if they cost <x to do. Requiring that those actions be paid >=x will simply mean that those things will cease to exist. Is it a better world if we regulate out of existence those jobs whose performance is worth less than a family-supporting wage?
      - ChrisLTD 9y ago
        Thanks for the thoughtful response. The argument for propping up the price of labor is that 1) we don't want working people to starve on the streets, 2) politically we've decided it's not the government's job to keep able-bodied workers off the streets. #1 is clearly right, while #2 should be up for debate. As for wage floors killing jobs, the effect would depend on the height of the floor. Modest increases in the minimum wage have had practically no effect on employment, but I'm sure massive hikes would cause problems.
heavyheavy 9y ago
In my perspective, it IS racist that American cares so much about rehabilitation and empathy for the white drug problem while the black drug issue was dealt with with violence and tearing apart famalies. Is it wrong to want white drug users to go to jail just like black ones were?
- rfrank 9y ago
  > Is it wrong to want white drug users to go to jail just like black ones were? Yes, if you're of the "drugs should be legal" perspective. Revenge isn't justice.
  - nonaime 9y ago
    Revenge isn't the answer. The answer for the problem presented is for other groups to receive the same empathy that poor whites are receiving. For other groups the answer is "we'll build more jails".
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  You tell me. It is wrong to make things worse for everybody just because when it was less worse for a powerful group it was ignored?
  - okreallywtf 9y ago
    The issue is this problem never went away. Minorities are still being punished disproportionately for drug use [1]. I don't think that we should let spite dictate our reaction to the opioid crisis but it indicates maybe its time to stop pretending that the drug war was a necessary evil, especially given we might be about to double-down on it (and most likely continuing to disproportionately convict minorities) [2]. [1] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-sessions-vows-to-ramp-up-drug-enforcement-and-prevention-2017-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-sessions-vows-to-ramp-up...
ebola1717 9y ago
It's true though. We talk about the loss of industrial jobs and NAFTA as a white working class phenomenon, despite the fact that people of all races are affected. We pathologized drug use for decades, until the recent opioid crisis hit rural areas. We talk about the loss of mining jobs, but rarely mention the loss of retail jobs. The Brookings report showed that while white people are dying more, they're still dying at lower rates than blacks. Gentrification, which is a huge economic issue for marginalized populations, is batted away as the way things have to be. Not to mention the treatment of issues like redlining. The biggest political impediment to social welfare policies that would have helped poor white communities has always been "welfare queen" rhetoric that pathologizes black poverty. Moving forward as a country requires us to acknowledge the racial biases in the ways we talk about economic issues.
Steuard 9y ago
I think that the despair that people in these situations are facing is terrible and destructive and yes, a crisis. We need to find some way as a society to address the deep structural issues that has created this malaise. It's a really big deal. But... can you explain why it's a load of crap to point out that this crisis of despair and drugs and early death is being treated differently than previous ones that mostly affected blacks and other minorities? Reporters could have written awfully similar articles about hopelessness in the inner city at just about any point in the past few decades, and at least a few of them did, but society's response wasn't "Oh no, how could we have let this happen? How can we give them hope and a future worth living for?" as it is in this case, but rather the War on Drugs and mass incarceration and police militarization and condemnation of black culture (and many other minority cultures). To be clear, I'm absolutely not advocating for white, rural America to be targeted by no-knock raids and public blame for its own predicament! I think that "How can we help?" should be the response to all crises like this. But we as a society are still heavily invested in the War on Drugs and a whole host of other forms of structural racism. So yes, I'd be a lot more comfortable with this treatment of the drug crisis facing white communities if it were going hand in hand with a similar reevaluation of the parallel challenges facing minority communities as well. But it's not.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

ChrisLTD 9y ago

Why is it a load of crap on so many levels? To take one example, the media and politicians have put a huge spotlight on the plight of coal and manufacturing job losses, while only recently did we learn that in fact we're losing even more retail jobs. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/the-silent-crisis-of-retail-employment/523428/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/the-sil... Want to guess at the racial and gender makeup of those manufacturing jobs vs. retail?

fav_collector 9y ago
You're sort of proving his point. Manufacturing and coal towns are isolated. Manufacturing and coal are sometimes literally the only fields with jobs available in those towns. Retail is generally located in places with many opportunities
- nonaime 9y ago
  But you've missed his point about the racial gender make up of those who are employed in those types of jobs. Especially in places with "many opportunities".
jnicholasp 9y ago
I'm not making an argument here, since I don't know the answer to my question, but is it possible that a higher proportion of coal and manufacturing jobs were traditionally living wage, support-a-family type jobs, as compared to retail jobs? And if so, wouldn't it be reasonable to focus attention on the losses in the two categories somewhat differently?
- ChrisLTD 9y ago
  That's an interesting point, but it leads me to a different conclusion. Given the higher numbers of people employed in retail, shouldn't we focus more attention on the fact that those jobs can't support a family?
  - wcummings 9y ago
    Harder to unionize service and retail workers unfortunately.
  - jnicholasp 9y ago
    > those jobs can't support a family Should they be able to? Absent some kind of deliberate regulatory or collective-bargaining action to prop up the price of labor in a given category, I assume the prevailing wages tend to reflect an implicit agreement between employers and potential employees on what that labor is worth. What is the argument for propping up the price of labor beyond what people are willing to do it for? Or, put another way, what is the argument for why jobs should be seen as existing for the sake of giving workers enough money to live on, rather than as existing because some people want certain things done and are willing to pay a certain amount to have them done? In the second case, the value of having certain things done is not infinitely variable: some actions will create x value in the world, and can only be worth doing if they cost <x to do. Requiring that those actions be paid >=x will simply mean that those things will cease to exist. Is it a better world if we regulate out of existence those jobs whose performance is worth less than a family-supporting wage?
    - ChrisLTD 9y ago
      Thanks for the thoughtful response. The argument for propping up the price of labor is that 1) we don't want working people to starve on the streets, 2) politically we've decided it's not the government's job to keep able-bodied workers off the streets. #1 is clearly right, while #2 should be up for debate. As for wage floors killing jobs, the effect would depend on the height of the floor. Modest increases in the minimum wage have had practically no effect on employment, but I'm sure massive hikes would cause problems.

heavyheavy 9y ago

In my perspective, it IS racist that American cares so much about rehabilitation and empathy for the white drug problem while the black drug issue was dealt with with violence and tearing apart famalies. Is it wrong to want white drug users to go to jail just like black ones were?

rfrank 9y ago
> Is it wrong to want white drug users to go to jail just like black ones were? Yes, if you're of the "drugs should be legal" perspective. Revenge isn't justice.
- nonaime 9y ago
  Revenge isn't the answer. The answer for the problem presented is for other groups to receive the same empathy that poor whites are receiving. For other groups the answer is "we'll build more jails".
marcosdumay 9y ago
You tell me. It is wrong to make things worse for everybody just because when it was less worse for a powerful group it was ignored?
- okreallywtf 9y ago
  The issue is this problem never went away. Minorities are still being punished disproportionately for drug use [1]. I don't think that we should let spite dictate our reaction to the opioid crisis but it indicates maybe its time to stop pretending that the drug war was a necessary evil, especially given we might be about to double-down on it (and most likely continuing to disproportionately convict minorities) [2]. [1] https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-sessions-vows-to-ramp-up-drug-enforcement-and-prevention-2017-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/jeff-sessions-vows-to-ramp-up...

ebola1717 9y ago

It's true though. We talk about the loss of industrial jobs and NAFTA as a white working class phenomenon, despite the fact that people of all races are affected. We pathologized drug use for decades, until the recent opioid crisis hit rural areas. We talk about the loss of mining jobs, but rarely mention the loss of retail jobs. The Brookings report showed that while white people are dying more, they're still dying at lower rates than blacks. Gentrification, which is a huge economic issue for marginalized populations, is batted away as the way things have to be. Not to mention the treatment of issues like redlining. The biggest political impediment to social welfare policies that would have helped poor white communities has always been "welfare queen" rhetoric that pathologizes black poverty. Moving forward as a country requires us to acknowledge the racial biases in the ways we talk about economic issues.

Steuard 9y ago

I think that the despair that people in these situations are facing is terrible and destructive and yes, a crisis. We need to find some way as a society to address the deep structural issues that has created this malaise. It's a really big deal. But... can you explain why it's a load of crap to point out that this crisis of despair and drugs and early death is being treated differently than previous ones that mostly affected blacks and other minorities? Reporters could have written awfully similar articles about hopelessness in the inner city at just about any point in the past few decades, and at least a few of them did, but society's response wasn't "Oh no, how could we have let this happen? How can we give them hope and a future worth living for?" as it is in this case, but rather the War on Drugs and mass incarceration and police militarization and condemnation of black culture (and many other minority cultures). To be clear, I'm absolutely not advocating for white, rural America to be targeted by no-knock raids and public blame for its own predicament! I think that "How can we help?" should be the response to all crises like this. But we as a society are still heavily invested in the War on Drugs and a whole host of other forms of structural racism. So yes, I'd be a lot more comfortable with this treatment of the drug crisis facing white communities if it were going hand in hand with a similar reevaluation of the parallel challenges facing minority communities as well. But it's not.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]