4 ms·

Not funny but sort of relevant. Here in Ireland we just had an air disaster - an air sea rescue helicopter crashed into an island off the west coast and all abo

Not funny but sort of relevant. Here in Ireland we just had an air disaster - an air sea rescue helicopter crashed into an island off the west coast and all aboard were killed. The accident investigation has determined that the island was not registered on the aircraft's mapping system.

dave84 10y ago
Very sad. > In relation to Black Rock and its Lighthouse the EGPWS manufacturer informed the Investigation that “The lighthouse obstacle is not in the obstacle database and the terrain of the island is not in our terrain database.” http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/RE...
hermitdev 10y ago
This is why every air craft comes equipped with a set of MKII eyeballs. Not trying to make light of it, or anything, but this is a prime example of why good vision is a requirement of any pilot. Not familiar with this incident or whether it was night-time or during inclement weather. Regardless of the circumstance, my apologies & condolences to the friends & family of the crew and any passengers. From your short description, this seems like an easily avoided accident and I hope actions are being taken to prevent a recurrence.
- Fomite 10y ago
  I would put the Bayesian prior for the probability that an air sea rescue helicopter is operating in bad weather with poor visibility at "Pretty damned high".
- pedrocr 10y ago
  >This is why every air craft comes equipped with a set of MKII eyeballs. What was the the MKI?
  - Neliquat 10y ago
    Curb feelers? Nah, I am going to go with Optically tested and Corrected vision. A uniquely human trait.
    - pedrocr 10y ago
      That's what's usually called a Mk1 eyeball, but the OP said the Mk2 eyeball so I'm curious what he considers the predecessor.
      - roryisok 10y ago
        probably just a mistake.
  - tajen 10y ago
    Urban Dictionary comes to the rescue: "Mk1 Eyeballs: Unaided vision. Commonly used by military internet know it alls to confuse people in an argument." I don't know whether MkII is an upgrade to aided vision or just a new version of the confusion. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mk1%20eyeball http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mk1%20eyeball
- mikeash 10y ago
  I don't think good vision is going to be much of a factor when it comes to not crashing into an island. You can spot islands at close range about as well with 20/40 vision as you can with 20/10 vision. Neither one is going to help you spot unlit terrain at night (as happened here).
- roryisok 10y ago
  According to the recovered black box recordings, one of the crew did see the island, but not soon enough. Probably the most shocking part is that there was a lighthouse on this island, which was operational at the time. This is shocking both because it should have been blindingly obvious to the pilot and crew that they were flying toward a lighthouse, and also that an island significant enough to have a lighthouse on it would not be on a digital mapping system. It's on Google maps - https://goo.gl/maps/Xdt7rzUErX42 https://goo.gl/maps/Xdt7rzUErX42, even has photos and information. This is not some insignificant rock How an aircraft mapping system can have such a huge omission is just mind-blowing
  - theoh 10y ago
    To be clear, the deficiency was in a warning system database of 3D elevation geometry (the EGPWS) not a "mapping system". Something that is geographically notable but quite small, vertical and isolated (like Rockall) may very well also be omitted from that version of the EGPWS database. NB Blackrock is a designated navigational waypoint on the standard charts etc. which is why they were flying straight toward it on autopilot.
    - roryisok 10y ago
      > Something that is geographically notable but quite small, vertical and isolated (like Rockall) may very well also be omitted from that version of the EGPWS database. Why are "small" and "isolated" good criteria for omitting something from a database of elevation geometry? It's evidently big enough to crash into and cause loss of life.
      - theoh 10y ago
        I'm not suggesting that those are criteria, just possible contributing factors. (And I'm not trying to exonerate the suppliers. We'll see what the final report says.) If the source is some kind of DEM (digital elevation model) data, it will be a raster of elevation values at some limited resolution, so necessarily just samples of elevation. With a relatively small island/rock, the full height could be missed, and possibly then even further reduced by filtering (i.e. smoothing of DEM values, either in the process of measurement or some kind of processing). That likelihood is hinted at by this quote from the manufacturer: "Honeywell’s terrain data is sourced from our supplier [named supplier]. It is a digitized topographic map derived data set. It does not include Black Rock. We have looked at alternate sources, including SRTM and ASTER. While Black Rock is present in these alternate data sets, the actual altitude of Black Rock is considerably higher than what is indicated in these alternate data sets." The data sources they refer to: http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/ http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/ https://asterweb.jpl.nasa.gov/gdem.asp https://asterweb.jpl.nasa.gov/gdem.asp Again, not coming to any conclusions from this.
- andyjohnson0 10y ago
  It was a SAR mission, flying low at night. I'm not a pilot, but eyeballs may not have been much use. Preliminary accident report is at [1]. [1] http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/RE...
TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
There was a plane that crashed into the ground because the pilots were used to warnings when landing in airports in Poland that weren't on the plane's mapping system, so when it wasn't crying wolf…
nommm-nommm 10y ago
A decade ago the USS San Francisco (submarine) drove full speed into a seamount (underwater mountain). One person died, almost everyone else was injured, and the entire front was ripped off but she did not sink. The cause was a blind over-reliance on a single chart which did not show any navigation hazards in the area. Other charts available to the crew had indications of the presence of a seamount.
stefek99 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Irish_Coast_Guard_Rescue_116_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Irish_Coast_Guard_Rescue_... > The preliminary report by AAIU investigators found that the helicopter had hit the island, which was not registered in the craft's mapping system and was only identified by a crew member only 13 seconds before impact. Seriously?

dave84 10y ago

Very sad. > In relation to Black Rock and its Lighthouse the EGPWS manufacturer informed the Investigation that “The lighthouse obstacle is not in the obstacle database and the terrain of the island is not in our terrain database.” http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/RE...

hermitdev 10y ago

This is why every air craft comes equipped with a set of MKII eyeballs. Not trying to make light of it, or anything, but this is a prime example of why good vision is a requirement of any pilot. Not familiar with this incident or whether it was night-time or during inclement weather. Regardless of the circumstance, my apologies & condolences to the friends & family of the crew and any passengers. From your short description, this seems like an easily avoided accident and I hope actions are being taken to prevent a recurrence.

Fomite 10y ago
I would put the Bayesian prior for the probability that an air sea rescue helicopter is operating in bad weather with poor visibility at "Pretty damned high".
pedrocr 10y ago
>This is why every air craft comes equipped with a set of MKII eyeballs. What was the the MKI?
- Neliquat 10y ago
  Curb feelers? Nah, I am going to go with Optically tested and Corrected vision. A uniquely human trait.
  - pedrocr 10y ago
    That's what's usually called a Mk1 eyeball, but the OP said the Mk2 eyeball so I'm curious what he considers the predecessor.
    - roryisok 10y ago
      probably just a mistake.
- tajen 10y ago
  Urban Dictionary comes to the rescue: "Mk1 Eyeballs: Unaided vision. Commonly used by military internet know it alls to confuse people in an argument." I don't know whether MkII is an upgrade to aided vision or just a new version of the confusion. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mk1%20eyeball http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mk1%20eyeball
mikeash 10y ago
I don't think good vision is going to be much of a factor when it comes to not crashing into an island. You can spot islands at close range about as well with 20/40 vision as you can with 20/10 vision. Neither one is going to help you spot unlit terrain at night (as happened here).
roryisok 10y ago
According to the recovered black box recordings, one of the crew did see the island, but not soon enough. Probably the most shocking part is that there was a lighthouse on this island, which was operational at the time. This is shocking both because it should have been blindingly obvious to the pilot and crew that they were flying toward a lighthouse, and also that an island significant enough to have a lighthouse on it would not be on a digital mapping system. It's on Google maps - https://goo.gl/maps/Xdt7rzUErX42 https://goo.gl/maps/Xdt7rzUErX42, even has photos and information. This is not some insignificant rock How an aircraft mapping system can have such a huge omission is just mind-blowing
- theoh 10y ago
  To be clear, the deficiency was in a warning system database of 3D elevation geometry (the EGPWS) not a "mapping system". Something that is geographically notable but quite small, vertical and isolated (like Rockall) may very well also be omitted from that version of the EGPWS database. NB Blackrock is a designated navigational waypoint on the standard charts etc. which is why they were flying straight toward it on autopilot.
  - roryisok 10y ago
    > Something that is geographically notable but quite small, vertical and isolated (like Rockall) may very well also be omitted from that version of the EGPWS database. Why are "small" and "isolated" good criteria for omitting something from a database of elevation geometry? It's evidently big enough to crash into and cause loss of life.
    - theoh 10y ago
      I'm not suggesting that those are criteria, just possible contributing factors. (And I'm not trying to exonerate the suppliers. We'll see what the final report says.) If the source is some kind of DEM (digital elevation model) data, it will be a raster of elevation values at some limited resolution, so necessarily just samples of elevation. With a relatively small island/rock, the full height could be missed, and possibly then even further reduced by filtering (i.e. smoothing of DEM values, either in the process of measurement or some kind of processing). That likelihood is hinted at by this quote from the manufacturer: "Honeywell’s terrain data is sourced from our supplier [named supplier]. It is a digitized topographic map derived data set. It does not include Black Rock. We have looked at alternate sources, including SRTM and ASTER. While Black Rock is present in these alternate data sets, the actual altitude of Black Rock is considerably higher than what is indicated in these alternate data sets." The data sources they refer to: http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/ http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/ https://asterweb.jpl.nasa.gov/gdem.asp https://asterweb.jpl.nasa.gov/gdem.asp Again, not coming to any conclusions from this.
andyjohnson0 10y ago
It was a SAR mission, flying low at night. I'm not a pilot, but eyeballs may not have been much use. Preliminary accident report is at [1]. [1] http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/RE...

TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago

There was a plane that crashed into the ground because the pilots were used to warnings when landing in airports in Poland that weren't on the plane's mapping system, so when it wasn't crying wolf…

nommm-nommm 10y ago

A decade ago the USS San Francisco (submarine) drove full speed into a seamount (underwater mountain). One person died, almost everyone else was injured, and the entire front was ripped off but she did not sink. The cause was a blind over-reliance on a single chart which did not show any navigation hazards in the area. Other charts available to the crew had indications of the presence of a seamount.

stefek99 10y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Irish_Coast_Guard_Rescue_116_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Irish_Coast_Guard_Rescue_... > The preliminary report by AAIU investigators found that the helicopter had hit the island, which was not registered in the craft's mapping system and was only identified by a crew member only 13 seconds before impact. Seriously?