4 ms·

I find it hard to believe that people find gendered language to be such a barrier to entry. More likely these are soapboxes for people to politicize from. I th

by dkn 9y ago

I find it hard to believe that people find gendered language to be such a barrier to entry. More likely these are soapboxes for people to politicize from. I think more harm and time-wasting has been caused as a result of these witch hunts than the original "problem" itself has. I tend to speak ungendered by default more often than not. Perhaps people use gendered pronouns because they're thinking of themselves in the situation they are writing about.

zajd 9y ago
What harm is caused by using non-gendered language in commit messages? Time-wasting? Really? If it doesn't matter to you, fine. But if it matters to other people, why complain about it? Do you really think Chromium is suffering as a project because the developers are wasting too much time on ensuring the codebase is inclusive?
- macinjosh 9y ago
  It is just another thing to think about while performing an already cognitively heavy task. A developer should be focused on ensuring what is written (code or commit message) is technically correct, well formed, and cogent. Adding another layer on top where one has to ensure they didn't accidentally use a gendered term just adds to the cognitive load.
  - matthewmacleod 9y ago
    Are you implying that your fragile mental state is going to fall apart when exposed to the idea of generally using gender-neutral language? :) It's basically no imposition at all, and you have already expended more effort in arguing against this than it would take to simply make a mental note that gender-neutral language is ideal next time you submit code to Chromium.
    - macinjosh 9y ago
      Personal attacks are for the small minded. Developers have enough to worry about without worrying about being crucified for using a word like she or he. Why can't we focus on getting shit done instead of focusing on the minutiae of which pronouns we use. Maybe we should stop immigrant minorities from speaking Spanish which is an extremely gendered language. In any case, what problem does this really solve? If we enforce the use of non-gendered terms will sexism/genderism magically be reduced? If it were only that easy!
      - Mz 9y ago
        Personal attacks are for the small minded. Pot meet kettle.
      - vertex-four 9y ago
        A suggestion for contributors to make a habit of using non-gendered terms is one of many ways that software project communities can signal that they pay attention to diversity issues, and attract developers who might be nervous about investing themselves in a new community (given some of the actual awfulness that happens in some of them).
    - mdekkers 9y ago
      This is just too easy to reverse: Are you implying that your fragile mental state is going to fall apart when exposed to the idea of generally using gender-specific language? :)
  - rexpop 9y ago
    1) As true as that is, it's actually a worthwhile exercise for all of us to practice gender neutrality. If we move our industry toward inclusivity, we'll more than make up for these minute productivity fears. 2) Using a gendered term isn't "accidental", but a built-in bug. Our biases are constructed in us by our environment, and we only benefit from growing out of them. If not now, when?
- zeveb 9y ago
  > What harm is caused by using non-gendered language in commit messages? It wreaks violence on the English language. I love our language (and others: many languages are beautiful in their own different ways), and modern denatured, bureaucratic English is an atrocity. > But if it matters to other people, why complain about it? Because I want more beauty in this world. Because I don't want the sort of people who desecrate my mother tongue to win.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    Singular "their" has been in use since the 14th century. No "harm" to the language is done with this long-established usage. http://pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html http://pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html
karmel 9y ago
As a female software engineer, I haven't historically found "he" to be a huge barrier-- the bigger barrier is too few comments to begin with :) I would generally prefer any comments, gendered or not, but, all else being equal, it seems like we may as well un-gender them. I think here of Geena Davis's comments about the movie industry (loosely paraphrased): When people complain about the lack of realism in showing big company boards as full of women and people of color, she said, why shouldn't we? Movies are the one place we can say, "Poof! Everything is magically evenly distributed!" and maybe in doing so encourage more women and people of color to dream of being board members and the like. Similarly, in comments, we can magically make things more equitable with almost no investment, and if that helps traditional outsiders even a little, then, great!
- ralfd 9y ago
  It is just polite for text referring to users or ones colleagues. But I find this new ungendered language in its consequence a bit bland/unpersonal though? Googles guide recommends A and B as names in new documentation, instead of using the traditional Alice and Bob, which I find less readable and makes me think of a dystopian future were people don't have names anymore. And while scrubbing "sister class" from comments (or replacing it with "sibling") is not a big deal, it kind of lacks a certain human charm?
  - karmel 9y ago
    "The more constraints one imposes, the more one frees one's self of the chains that shackle the spirit." - Stravinsky, who was apparently gender-neutral before it was cool. Use it as a challenge to come up with creative, human comments that don't rely on gender to be charming :)
matthewmacleod 9y ago
I find it hard to believe that it's really such a problem to suggest that gender-neutral language is a pretty reasonable goal. It's hardly the biggest barrier to diversity in software development, but it's a small bias that seems very minimal in cost to fix over time – and every little push in that direction helps. More than anything I struggle to understand what actual objection to 'try to use gender-neutral language' one could possibly have.
- holydude 9y ago
  Why would that be a problem in the first place ?
- dkn 9y ago
  Yeah I envision this being something that is just fixed over time as people are exposed to new and different ideas. Yet, it seems to me that a lot of these documents are written and intended to enforce overnight changes in people's unconscious biases. From the document: > Each of us has the right to enjoy our experience and participate without fear of harassment, discrimination, or condescension, whether blatant or subtle. I don't know about you guys but I hardly enjoy reading technical documentation. It's not meant to be an enjoyable experience. It's meant to convey complex meaning in a (hopefully) short amount of time. I don't think gendered pronouns add to the effectiveness of this communication method, but I also don't think we need to formalize their usage (or non-usage). I guess I'm asking why this can't be a natural progression that we all wish to undertake as cooperating organisms rather than enforced with competition and penalties? It seems like a wasted opportunity and unnecessarily polarizing.

by dkn 9y ago

zajd 9y ago

What harm is caused by using non-gendered language in commit messages? Time-wasting? Really? If it doesn't matter to you, fine. But if it matters to other people, why complain about it? Do you really think Chromium is suffering as a project because the developers are wasting too much time on ensuring the codebase is inclusive?

macinjosh 9y ago
It is just another thing to think about while performing an already cognitively heavy task. A developer should be focused on ensuring what is written (code or commit message) is technically correct, well formed, and cogent. Adding another layer on top where one has to ensure they didn't accidentally use a gendered term just adds to the cognitive load.
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
  Are you implying that your fragile mental state is going to fall apart when exposed to the idea of generally using gender-neutral language? :) It's basically no imposition at all, and you have already expended more effort in arguing against this than it would take to simply make a mental note that gender-neutral language is ideal next time you submit code to Chromium.
  - macinjosh 9y ago
    Personal attacks are for the small minded. Developers have enough to worry about without worrying about being crucified for using a word like she or he. Why can't we focus on getting shit done instead of focusing on the minutiae of which pronouns we use. Maybe we should stop immigrant minorities from speaking Spanish which is an extremely gendered language. In any case, what problem does this really solve? If we enforce the use of non-gendered terms will sexism/genderism magically be reduced? If it were only that easy!
    - Mz 9y ago
      Personal attacks are for the small minded. Pot meet kettle.
    - vertex-four 9y ago
      A suggestion for contributors to make a habit of using non-gendered terms is one of many ways that software project communities can signal that they pay attention to diversity issues, and attract developers who might be nervous about investing themselves in a new community (given some of the actual awfulness that happens in some of them).
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    This is just too easy to reverse: Are you implying that your fragile mental state is going to fall apart when exposed to the idea of generally using gender-specific language? :)
- rexpop 9y ago
  1) As true as that is, it's actually a worthwhile exercise for all of us to practice gender neutrality. If we move our industry toward inclusivity, we'll more than make up for these minute productivity fears. 2) Using a gendered term isn't "accidental", but a built-in bug. Our biases are constructed in us by our environment, and we only benefit from growing out of them. If not now, when?
zeveb 9y ago
> What harm is caused by using non-gendered language in commit messages? It wreaks violence on the English language. I love our language (and others: many languages are beautiful in their own different ways), and modern denatured, bureaucratic English is an atrocity. > But if it matters to other people, why complain about it? Because I want more beauty in this world. Because I don't want the sort of people who desecrate my mother tongue to win.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Singular "their" has been in use since the 14th century. No "harm" to the language is done with this long-established usage. http://pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html http://pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html

karmel 9y ago

As a female software engineer, I haven't historically found "he" to be a huge barrier-- the bigger barrier is too few comments to begin with :) I would generally prefer any comments, gendered or not, but, all else being equal, it seems like we may as well un-gender them. I think here of Geena Davis's comments about the movie industry (loosely paraphrased): When people complain about the lack of realism in showing big company boards as full of women and people of color, she said, why shouldn't we? Movies are the one place we can say, "Poof! Everything is magically evenly distributed!" and maybe in doing so encourage more women and people of color to dream of being board members and the like. Similarly, in comments, we can magically make things more equitable with almost no investment, and if that helps traditional outsiders even a little, then, great!

ralfd 9y ago
It is just polite for text referring to users or ones colleagues. But I find this new ungendered language in its consequence a bit bland/unpersonal though? Googles guide recommends A and B as names in new documentation, instead of using the traditional Alice and Bob, which I find less readable and makes me think of a dystopian future were people don't have names anymore. And while scrubbing "sister class" from comments (or replacing it with "sibling") is not a big deal, it kind of lacks a certain human charm?
- karmel 9y ago
  "The more constraints one imposes, the more one frees one's self of the chains that shackle the spirit." - Stravinsky, who was apparently gender-neutral before it was cool. Use it as a challenge to come up with creative, human comments that don't rely on gender to be charming :)

matthewmacleod 9y ago

I find it hard to believe that it's really such a problem to suggest that gender-neutral language is a pretty reasonable goal. It's hardly the biggest barrier to diversity in software development, but it's a small bias that seems very minimal in cost to fix over time – and every little push in that direction helps. More than anything I struggle to understand what actual objection to 'try to use gender-neutral language' one could possibly have.

holydude 9y ago
Why would that be a problem in the first place ?
dkn 9y ago
Yeah I envision this being something that is just fixed over time as people are exposed to new and different ideas. Yet, it seems to me that a lot of these documents are written and intended to enforce overnight changes in people's unconscious biases. From the document: > Each of us has the right to enjoy our experience and participate without fear of harassment, discrimination, or condescension, whether blatant or subtle. I don't know about you guys but I hardly enjoy reading technical documentation. It's not meant to be an enjoyable experience. It's meant to convey complex meaning in a (hopefully) short amount of time. I don't think gendered pronouns add to the effectiveness of this communication method, but I also don't think we need to formalize their usage (or non-usage). I guess I'm asking why this can't be a natural progression that we all wish to undertake as cooperating organisms rather than enforced with competition and penalties? It seems like a wasted opportunity and unnecessarily polarizing.