4 ms·

Doesn't everyone have an ego? Isn't it really hard to check it at the door? I think students of Buddhism have been trying to figure out how to do this for cen

by awt 16y ago

Doesn't everyone have an ego? Isn't it really hard to check it at the door? I think students of Buddhism have been trying to figure out how to do this for centuries. I don't think it's as simple as checking it at the door.

tom_ilsinszki 16y ago
Checking your ego (against reality) and getting rid of it completely are 2 different things.
- brlewis 16y ago
  "Reality" is the key word here. The more programming you do, the more you'll know your limitations.
timr 16y ago
"Doesn't everyone have an ego? Isn't it really hard to check it at the door?" My thoughts exactly. The parent comment is the sort of "advice" that is easy to dispense and makes everyone feel good, but is fundamentally useless. These platitudes are the honeypot comments of online forums -- everyone votes for them because they "agree", but they might as well be voting up a picture of a kitten hanging from a tree branch. It's comforting to think that we're somehow above the base human need for recognition, but not very close to the truth. For example, why is it okay for entertainers, actors and politicians to pursue fame, while programmers must toil in selfless obscurity? Are we supposed to be martyrs? Also, not for nothing, but when the guy with the top comment score on HN -- the guy who wore a t-shirt bearing his HN login name at Startup School -- tells you to abandon your ego, well...I'm no english major, but there's a certain situational irony there.
- edw519 16y ago
  The parent comment is the sort of "advice" that is easy to dispense and makes everyone feel good, but is fundamentally useless. Thanks for the feedback, timr. As the author of the parent comment, let me see if I got this right... 1. In response to OP's post about fame and programming, I shared some of my innermost feelings about my vocation. I absolutely believe that it's the software, not me, who is the star. No matter how long I do this, I am still in awe of the entire process and thank my lucky stars that I was born when I was. Energy comes to me from some unknown place, goes through my brain and finger tips, and results in this untouchable thing that affects so many lives. What can be cooler than that? I have never desired fame for this and only want to get paid properly and see my work put to good use. (OK, an occasional pat on the back would be nice.) I am perfectly content, and in fact function best, when the code is the star. I shared these feelings, fully understanding that others may not feel the same. Nothing I said was intended as "advice". 2. Others voted this comment up. I can only hope that some of those people have shared my experience and feelings. 3. You presume to know what others were thinking when they voted, which is not what I hope they were thinking. 4. The purpose of the tshirt was identification. It was my first trip ever to SV and it worked beautifully in a crowd of 700 programmers. I met 27 people who I already knew online, but none of us had any idea what each other looked like. I have stayed in touch with most of them even though I try to maintain my anonymity online. The only question is why didn't I meet you? Sorry you feel this way. I don't need fame, but I do need to build cool stuff and I do need to see that it's going to good use. I think that other programmers feel that way too. The best thing I can wish for you is that you feel that way too someday.
  - timr 16y ago
    I think my original comment was pretty clear, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time responding, except to say that I think you're trivializing the conversation. Ego is a complicated subject, and the driver of many of the things we do. Perhaps you've attained an elite level of ego-free, techno-monastic selflessness, but it's unlikely that the rest of our society will do the same. Until they do, "abandon your ego" is a rather trivial bit of advice -- far easier said than done. Most importantly, however, it's not clear that it's actually good advice: most people are more effective in life with a bit of recognition, and geeks, in particular, are famously limited by their lack of talent for self-promotion. Is it any surprise that they'd like the inference that self-promotion is an evil to be avoided? (Personally, I like to be told that women love, pale, gangly guys who are good with computers. Alas.) Finally, while I'm quite sure that your t-shirt was effective for making yourself known, I (like everyone in attendance) had a name tag, and found that it worked equally beautifully for identifying myself to others. Sometimes, the simplest solutions are the best.
    - edw519 16y ago
      I think my original comment was pretty clear, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time responding... Good. Especially from someone who remembered an event from 26 months ago to launch a personal attack today. I hope you find something a little more constructive to do with your time.
      - timr 16y ago
        I didn't accuse you of anything bad or call you names -- I just pointed out the irony in the situation. It was intended as an illustration of the difficulty of following your own advice, not as an insult.
        chipsy 16y ago
        He was looking for gratification and external approval. The comment was designed for that, and his defensiveness and unwillingness to engage in a deeper discussion of the issues only proves it, because anyone who meant what they said would own up - "Yeah, I guess that's true, I can't get it right either. Like this one time I..." and instead we get "ho ho, no, you have it all wrong, grasshopper. The code is everything, I am nothing. armfold" Yes, that makes it ironic.
- icey 16y ago
  I wish more people would have identified themselves with their HN usernames somehow at last year's startup school. It sucks to find out that there were a bunch of people from HN there and I missed out on the chance to talk to them in person because I couldn't make the connection based on their name. Although to be fair, I put my twitter address on my name tag which happens to be my username here... So I suppose I'm guilty of doing whatever it is you're accusing edw519 of.
  - timr 16y ago
    "Although to be fair, I put my twitter address on my name tag which happens to be my username here... So I suppose I'm guilty of doing whatever it is you're accusing edw519 of." Not really. Fortunately, the world is not binary, and there's a fairly large, practical gap between "writing your ID on a nametag" and having a t-shirt custom made. That said, I'm not accusing him of anything bad -- it was a clever self-promotional ploy. I'm just pointing out the irony.
- mburney 16y ago
  For example, why is it okay for entertainers, actors and politicians to pursue fame, while programmers must toil in selfless obscurity? Are we supposed to be martyrs? I think it is because we all realize programming will never be sexy enough to gain any recognition from the public, so acting like we don't care about recognition is the next best thing in terms of preserving our egos.
  - eru 16y ago
    As an alternative you can go into game programming or the demoscene for a small chance of fame.

by awt 16y ago

tom_ilsinszki 16y ago

Checking your ego (against reality) and getting rid of it completely are 2 different things.

brlewis 16y ago
"Reality" is the key word here. The more programming you do, the more you'll know your limitations.

timr 16y ago

"Doesn't everyone have an ego? Isn't it really hard to check it at the door?" My thoughts exactly. The parent comment is the sort of "advice" that is easy to dispense and makes everyone feel good, but is fundamentally useless. These platitudes are the honeypot comments of online forums -- everyone votes for them because they "agree", but they might as well be voting up a picture of a kitten hanging from a tree branch. It's comforting to think that we're somehow above the base human need for recognition, but not very close to the truth. For example, why is it okay for entertainers, actors and politicians to pursue fame, while programmers must toil in selfless obscurity? Are we supposed to be martyrs? Also, not for nothing, but when the guy with the top comment score on HN -- the guy who wore a t-shirt bearing his HN login name at Startup School -- tells you to abandon your ego, well...I'm no english major, but there's a certain situational irony there.

edw519 16y ago
The parent comment is the sort of "advice" that is easy to dispense and makes everyone feel good, but is fundamentally useless. Thanks for the feedback, timr. As the author of the parent comment, let me see if I got this right... 1. In response to OP's post about fame and programming, I shared some of my innermost feelings about my vocation. I absolutely believe that it's the software, not me, who is the star. No matter how long I do this, I am still in awe of the entire process and thank my lucky stars that I was born when I was. Energy comes to me from some unknown place, goes through my brain and finger tips, and results in this untouchable thing that affects so many lives. What can be cooler than that? I have never desired fame for this and only want to get paid properly and see my work put to good use. (OK, an occasional pat on the back would be nice.) I am perfectly content, and in fact function best, when the code is the star. I shared these feelings, fully understanding that others may not feel the same. Nothing I said was intended as "advice". 2. Others voted this comment up. I can only hope that some of those people have shared my experience and feelings. 3. You presume to know what others were thinking when they voted, which is not what I hope they were thinking. 4. The purpose of the tshirt was identification. It was my first trip ever to SV and it worked beautifully in a crowd of 700 programmers. I met 27 people who I already knew online, but none of us had any idea what each other looked like. I have stayed in touch with most of them even though I try to maintain my anonymity online. The only question is why didn't I meet you? Sorry you feel this way. I don't need fame, but I do need to build cool stuff and I do need to see that it's going to good use. I think that other programmers feel that way too. The best thing I can wish for you is that you feel that way too someday.
- timr 16y ago
  I think my original comment was pretty clear, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time responding, except to say that I think you're trivializing the conversation. Ego is a complicated subject, and the driver of many of the things we do. Perhaps you've attained an elite level of ego-free, techno-monastic selflessness, but it's unlikely that the rest of our society will do the same. Until they do, "abandon your ego" is a rather trivial bit of advice -- far easier said than done. Most importantly, however, it's not clear that it's actually good advice: most people are more effective in life with a bit of recognition, and geeks, in particular, are famously limited by their lack of talent for self-promotion. Is it any surprise that they'd like the inference that self-promotion is an evil to be avoided? (Personally, I like to be told that women love, pale, gangly guys who are good with computers. Alas.) Finally, while I'm quite sure that your t-shirt was effective for making yourself known, I (like everyone in attendance) had a name tag, and found that it worked equally beautifully for identifying myself to others. Sometimes, the simplest solutions are the best.
  - edw519 16y ago
    I think my original comment was pretty clear, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time responding... Good. Especially from someone who remembered an event from 26 months ago to launch a personal attack today. I hope you find something a little more constructive to do with your time.
    - timr 16y ago
      I didn't accuse you of anything bad or call you names -- I just pointed out the irony in the situation. It was intended as an illustration of the difficulty of following your own advice, not as an insult.
      - chipsy 16y ago
        He was looking for gratification and external approval. The comment was designed for that, and his defensiveness and unwillingness to engage in a deeper discussion of the issues only proves it, because anyone who meant what they said would own up - "Yeah, I guess that's true, I can't get it right either. Like this one time I..." and instead we get "ho ho, no, you have it all wrong, grasshopper. The code is everything, I am nothing. armfold" Yes, that makes it ironic.
icey 16y ago
I wish more people would have identified themselves with their HN usernames somehow at last year's startup school. It sucks to find out that there were a bunch of people from HN there and I missed out on the chance to talk to them in person because I couldn't make the connection based on their name. Although to be fair, I put my twitter address on my name tag which happens to be my username here... So I suppose I'm guilty of doing whatever it is you're accusing edw519 of.
- timr 16y ago
  "Although to be fair, I put my twitter address on my name tag which happens to be my username here... So I suppose I'm guilty of doing whatever it is you're accusing edw519 of." Not really. Fortunately, the world is not binary, and there's a fairly large, practical gap between "writing your ID on a nametag" and having a t-shirt custom made. That said, I'm not accusing him of anything bad -- it was a clever self-promotional ploy. I'm just pointing out the irony.
mburney 16y ago
For example, why is it okay for entertainers, actors and politicians to pursue fame, while programmers must toil in selfless obscurity? Are we supposed to be martyrs? I think it is because we all realize programming will never be sexy enough to gain any recognition from the public, so acting like we don't care about recognition is the next best thing in terms of preserving our egos.
- eru 16y ago
  As an alternative you can go into game programming or the demoscene for a small chance of fame.