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Gender-neutral Chromium code
- maxxxxx 10y agoIt's good to know that "He" as abbreviation for "Helium" is most likely OK.
- strictnein 10y agoAnd people named "Guy" can continue to be called "Guy", for the time being at least.
- cundd 10y agoI wonder why it's still legal to give someone the name "Guy"
- matthewmacleod 10y agoNo you don't.
- raverbashing 10y agoI wonder why people think in US-Centric only terms Guy is a common French name
- strictnein 10y agoThis is all tongue-in-cheek. There are guys named Guy in the US too.
- vertex-four 10y agoYou know they specifically added that list to avoid people suggesting that Google are trying to implement a "simplistic word filter" or similar.
- dragonwriter 10y agoI'm pretty sure they also added it to head off other people "helpfully" implementing naive word filters and filing bugs based on them.
- dogma1138 10y agoWell.... It would not surprise me if someone (I apologies if this is discriminatory towards people who identify as nothing) has already made a petition to IUPAC to change Helium into Theylium.
- matthewmacleod 10y agoReally? Would it not surprise you? Or are you just being a bit _wide_, as we'd say in Scotland?
- karmel 10y agoPedantic, to be sure, but the intent and overall thrust are a good thing, in my opinion as a woman in software engineering.
- ue_ 10y agoIt's ridiculous that people need to be told apparently that 'he' is okay in a base64 string.
- strictnein 10y agoWe should probably switch to base60, just to be safe.
- hunter2_ 10y agoBetter watch out for 0xBABE though.
- maxxxxx 10y agoI will go through a few terabytes of encrypted data today just to be sure.
- fny 10y agoI feel like these quips intend to caution you before doing something inane like s/he/it/g. I found it funny and in good taste.
- zeveb 10y agoIn English, male pronouns may legitimately be used to refer to individuals of unknown gender. This is important: English is a beautiful language, and destroying its beauty is an act of cultural vandalism.
- odiroot 10y agoNot only English, as far as I know multiple European languages have it standardised this way.
- matthewmacleod 10y agoIt's not really that important, no. It's totally legitimate – though you might not agree – to make the argument that male pronouns being used for people of unknown gender is anachronistic. In that case, use of a gender-neutral pronoun seems like a reasonable evolution of English which takes into account modern sensitivity to gender issues. This, of course, assumes that you're not of the trivially ridiculous belief that language should never evolve.
- williamgb 10y agoMatthew, the person you are arguing with, or rather, hurling snark at, did not make the claim that language should never evolve. I'm not sure why you felt so compelled to end a reasoned comment on such a nasty note. I am in full support of this code. It approaches a sensitive subject with the care it deserves and does not seek to strip anyone of their dignity. Quite a world away from the punitive actions advocated by Erik Michaels-Ober on other projects.
- clint 10y ago> In English, male pronouns may legitimately be used to refer to individuals of unknown gender. Take a few moments with yourself this evening to seriously think about why this might be.
- strathmeyer 10y agoIt's weird when all the comments here prove why what said needed to be said. I thought this wasn't Reddit.
- dkn 10y agoI find it hard to believe that people find gendered language to be such a barrier to entry. More likely these are soapboxes for people to politicize from. I think more harm and time-wasting has been caused as a result of these witch hunts than the original "problem" itself has. I tend to speak ungendered by default more often than not. Perhaps people use gendered pronouns because they're thinking of themselves in the situation they are writing about.
- zajd 10y agoWhat harm is caused by using non-gendered language in commit messages? Time-wasting? Really? If it doesn't matter to you, fine. But if it matters to other people, why complain about it? Do you really think Chromium is suffering as a project because the developers are wasting too much time on ensuring the codebase is inclusive?
- macinjosh 10y agoIt is just another thing to think about while performing an already cognitively heavy task. A developer should be focused on ensuring what is written (code or commit message) is technically correct, well formed, and cogent. Adding another layer on top where one has to ensure they didn't accidentally use a gendered term just adds to the cognitive load.
- matthewmacleod 10y agoAre you implying that your fragile mental state is going to fall apart when exposed to the idea of generally using gender-neutral language? :) It's basically no imposition at all, and you have already expended more effort in arguing against this than it would take to simply make a mental note that gender-neutral language is ideal next time you submit code to Chromium.
- macinjosh 10y agoPersonal attacks are for the small minded. Developers have enough to worry about without worrying about being crucified for using a word like she or he. Why can't we focus on getting shit done instead of focusing on the minutiae of which pronouns we use. Maybe we should stop immigrant minorities from speaking Spanish which is an extremely gendered language. In any case, what problem does this really solve? If we enforce the use of non-gendered terms will sexism/genderism magically be reduced? If it were only that easy!
- gibbitz 10y agoIt's sad that someone needed to write this. If only we had a pervasive moral organization like religion that could show us that all genders and races are to be equally respected. Oh, wait... we do... but they don't :(
- netsharc 10y agoThe purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought — that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc — should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words. http://orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_app http://orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/en_app
- matthewmacleod 10y agoThis is the worst kind off middle-brow bullshit where you have parroted an unrelated quote with no commentary whatsoever on what possible parallels you see between these two concepts.
- Sir_Substance 10y agoThe parallel he is attempting to draw is fairly obvious, which suggests that you are being deliberately disingenuous and/or oblivious. It's a low quality argumentative technique, and is generally employed in the hope that your opponent will respond with something easier to attack, aka an attempt to generate a straw man. 5/10 for enthusiasm but 2/10 for technique.
- vertex-four 10y agoWhile it's obvious, it's also disingenuous when making an argument to fail to make the entirety of your argument, and thus avoid saying "difficult" things. "I feel that the requirement for non-gendered language is preventing people from thinking about the differences between genders", for example, would be something that can actually be dissected and responded to. A quote can't, so much.
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- martinko 10y agoIs this a joke?
- madamelic 10y agoI find it more offensive and demeaning that things like this are forced upon people. I am pretty sure at 25, I can stand reading "He xxxx" in documentation. The issue isn't the words, it is assuming no one besides someone like you should work on the project.
- TheGirondin 10y agoI can't even imagine being that fragile that seeing a gendered pronoun would be upsetting.
- matthewmacleod 10y agoIt's not that it's upsetting as an individual event, and I can't help but feel this is a bit of a straw man. What's maybe more of an issue is that is there is a long-term bias in the use of gendered language, across multiple projects, in code and documentation and comments, then that does seem like an obvious bug. It's a very small thing, but one of those things that in aggregate could contribute to the perception of a more general gender imbalance in the industry. But think off it another way – for no cost, you can make other people feel slightly more comfortable in the long term working in this field. Why bother fighting it?
- rexpop 10y agoIn fact, it may not be upsetting, but merely another in a long line of brief experiences that inform the audience — male and female — that women have no place in technical documentation, technical stories, programming, technology, prosperity, agency, or power. These are the minute bricks of social construction, and we can either choose to ignore them (and replicate existing oppressive social structures) or fix them (and make conscious choices about the society we construct). If, indeed, you are opposed to women programming, I can think of no better long-term solution than persistently emphasizing the maleness of technology or exclusively using male pronouns. To come out and blankly state that "women should not be in programming" would be met with the Backfire Effect, so subtlety is necessary, here. Keep up the good work.
- rexpop 10y ago
- fny 10y agoThe eight year old in me cheers. My grade school teacher beat my singular use of they/them/their out of me. At the time, it seemed ludicrous not to use they/them/their in cases when I didn't know someone's gender. I assume this was due to my first language. Farsi doesn't have gendered pronouns: everything is "it". Bahaha! Now I can gleefully write "when the user enters their password" and be right. I'm not sure how I feel about this bit though... > For new code/comments, consider using just ‘A’, ‘B’ as names. Perhaps consider using unisex names instead? Maybe "Alex" and "Bo"?
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- holydude 10y agoI find it ridiculous that someone sees this as an issue. I can't believe people invest time in changing things like master/slave to leader/follower.
- major505 10y ago"Emphasis is added: unnecessarily gendered code is discriminatory and condescending, and reading biased code isn't enjoyable." Well... thats some heavy bullshit. If you get offended by gender you shold even be on the internet... you will be offended by literally everything.
- macinjosh 10y agoWhat a gigantic waste of time and resources. How fragile is someone's self identity that it falls apart when they see a pronoun used that isn't the same as their own?
- matthewmacleod 10y agoIt's not really a waste of anything. No time is being wasted. No resources are being used. The guidance is – 'try to use gender neutral language'. That's it. No cost.
- macinjosh 10y agoObviously you're not a coder. When I am in a coding flow the last thing I want to do is come out of my flow to make sure I didn't accidentally use a gendered term.
- matthewmacleod 10y agoObviously you're not a coder. I very much am. I don't really understand your argument – do you have to 'come out of your flow' to make sure that you spell correctly, or are grammatically consistent, or aren't accidentally racist?
- vertex-four 10y agoSome people actually do have to pay significant attention to ensure that they do basic things like be polite to others and not be overtly discriminatory, actually - there's a reason there's talk of people having to have a "mental filter" in certain situations.
- philjackson 10y agoI've found it fairly common these days for documentation to explicitly use female pronouns when talking about anonymous people - I guess that's just a show of solidarity to our underrepresented female counterparts. Using a specific gender when refereing to someone anonymous grates on me anyway - just seems like poor writing.
- unclesaamm 10y agoFor everyone whining about how this is "newspeak" and brainwashing, consider how the pronoun "Ms." didn't exist until the 60s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms. (edit <- the period is part of the link, but HN strips it out) Shouldn't the arguments that language can lead toward changes of thought (the "newspeak arguments") actually _spur_ these changes toward less biased thinking? If you agree that it is possible to change language, and that changing language changes thought, then the only remaining arguments at that point are appeals to a nebulous concept of "freedom" and that you like being a dude and saying whatever you want. Appeals to 1984 are extra bankrupt because this is not a government, and there is absolutely no penalty for disobedience, except the social one -- and social punishments for disobedience of social norms has always been a part and parcel of living in, well, society.
- strictnein 10y agoDo you mean the 1660s? From your link: > ""Ms." began to be used as early as the 17th century, along with "Miss" and "Mrs.", as a title derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like Mister, did not originally indicate marital status"
- unclesaamm 10y agoRead the full sentence: > "Ms." began to be used as early as the 17th century, along with "Miss" and "Mrs.", as a title derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like Mister, did not originally indicate marital status. "Ms.", however, fell into disuse in favor of the other two titles and was not revived until the 20th century. It wasn't until the 1960s that "Ms." appeared as a formal category in the United States on forms.
- strictnein 10y agoYou stated: > ""Ms." didn't exist until the 60s" So, yeah... clearly you were talking about formal categories on US forms...
- mdekkers 10y ago
- holydude 10y agoHaving to work with female colleagues I now much prefer working with just males. Unfortunately in my experience women are the root cause of many workplace issues and misunderstandings. 1) women gossip a lot 2) women are too emotional 3) women care about these little things that just do not matter 4) women want to be in good terms with almost everyone hence avoid confrontations
- matthewmacleod 10y agoThe sort of stupid shit that you have just posted is why these kinds of steps are important in the first place.
- sctb 10y agoYou're not welcome to make unsubstantive generalizations like this on Hacker News.
- splintercell 10y ago> For new code/comments, consider using just ‘A’, ‘B’ as names (instead of Alice and Bob) This defeats the point of using Alice and Bob. There is a reason why Alice and Bob have different genders, because when thinking about complex scenarios, having different genders in addition to different names is more beneficial. Maybe they can use anthropomorphize animals, Archi the Alligator and Bob the Bunny.
- PKop 10y agoTake note people. See the mental poison infecting all aspects of culture. If you disagree with this nonsense, you need to push back and speak up. For an example of how bad this can get (and has gotten) see: https://youtu.be/04wyGK6k6HE https://youtu.be/04wyGK6k6HE One of the most captivating interviews I've watched recently. Don't say you weren't warned. edit: Isn't it funny this thread is dead/flagged? You can't even have an opinion on the issue that doesn't fall in line with the established "correct" position. No discussion is allowed. The pros and cons cannot even be enumerated without censorship. On an issue that directly involves development practices and would necessitate more work for developers. Talking about it is off limits! If that's not the very definition of suppression of speech, I don't know what is. People that have reservations about this are viewed as "sensitive" and worrying unnecessarily. But look at this very thread!
- antisthenes 10y ago> Isn't it funny this thread is dead/flagged? Isn't this the pushback you were talking about? That something is flagged means it's trash that doesn't even warrant the effort of discussion and definitely doesn't belong on the front page. In fact we're discussing it right now (you can still post in flagged threads, can you not?)
- PKop 10y agoQuite obviously it limits discussion. It is removed from view of those that didn't see it when it was posted. It is not falling off the main page by virtue of not earning enough engagement/comments/votes from users. It is arbitrarily being pulled. Maybe I don't understand who has the power to "flag" a post, or what the criteria is. YCombinator can do whatever they want on their site if it is they (the mods) alone who "flag" something. The engagement and discussion is a sign that people want to discuss it. Not sure why it is deemed (by whom?) to be "trash". By you? My point is, this post relates to programming. It is not a side issue or a triviality or inconsequential. "Free speech" generally is a fundamental issue that has impact on all areas of society, certainly tech and the internet, and I think this is a free speech issue. It is a discussion of what forms of speech are deemed allowed and what isn't.
- whorleater 10y agoThis is the most inane bikeshedding
- acobster 10y ago"These are only suggestions. You make the call." In other words, calm down people.
- tzs 10y agoIs there a set of English pronouns that refer to only males the way "she", "her", etc., refer to only females? [1] All of the male pronouns that I can recall at the moment, such as "he" and "his", can do double duty serving both when you are referring to an actual male, and when you are referring to a person of unknown gender. [1] I mean when referring to people. Let's leave the whole using "she" for boats for another time...
- douche 10y agoThat's the centuries-old, but now "wrongthink" convention. Best not do that...