5 ms·

There's an interesting concept. I wonder what the trade-off would be. How much efficiency would it cost to clean the brain continually rather than in a dedicate

There's an interesting concept. I wonder what the trade-off would be. How much efficiency would it cost to clean the brain continually rather than in a dedicated sleep cycle? Would it even be possible to process these toxins while maintaining consciousness? I'm sure there could be huge benefits for many modern lifestyles to trade heavily on reaction speed and/or lightly on IQ for 50% more waking hours. Or even 25% more waking hours, if you just cut the need for sleep in half, over the long term.

mrzool 9y ago
Why force things? I don't want 50% more waking hours. I enjoy my sleep tremendously.
- bmelton 9y ago
  I suspect (but do not know) that you enjoy your sleep because of its restorative effect. If you could obviate the need for the restorative effect, and instead just always feel newly restored, would you still enjoy going to sleep for no reason? Personally, I dislike the need for sleep. I put it off for as long as I can manage, and try to get as little of it as I can get away with. For me, I have a hard time functioning well with less than 4 hours a night, but anything more then 5.5 hours and I feel like I've thrown the day away. The idea of voluntarily checking out from the world isn't as relaxing to me as picking up a book to read, or learning something new, or doing something productive that isn't work/startup-related. Either way, I assume that nobody would force you to take a drug that you didn't want to take.
  - eckza 9y ago
    Oh my god, think of what this would do to commerce, in terms of a capitalist society. Suddenly, you can take a drug that decreases your need for sleep by 50%. People only need 4h of sleep per night now, for a full nights' sleep - 3h, if you're willing to skimp a little, 2h isn't unheard of (in the way that only getting 4h of sleep a night, now, isn't unheard of either). Suddenly, there's a significant advantage in the hands of everyone willing to take this drug. Students are expected to study more and harder, because they don't need 8h of sleep every night. Entrance exams to schools get more difficult. Software developers are now enticed to work longer hours - longer hours than they already are. Labor / shift workers (hospitality / food industry) are expected to work longer shifts, and they have to, because businesses have to be open longer because more people are awake for more of the day. Now, also, you have to consider: this is just sleep, in terms of brain repair. Your body has to put itself back together every night, too - repairing microscopic muscle tears, fixing bruises, etc etc etc. Your body would probably start slowly falling apart on 2-3h of sleep per night, even if your mind was fully rested. I really, really hope this doesn't happen.
    - ChuckMcM 9y ago
      It is entirely possible that it would evolve differently, perhaps given that not everyone would be available during the 'dark' hours you might see a society evolve into dual function, where 8 hours were for 'working' and 8 hours were for 'community/family' with 8 hours split into two 4 hour segments as 'transition times'.
      - bmelton 9y ago
        I was thinking this as well. I suspect that it's impossible to predict, but I wouldn't think it unfathomable to imagine a world in which, with all the additional free time, society might evolve towards a more Italian ethos, in which we take longer lunches, and don't mind spending as much overall time 'at the office', though not necessarily working any more while there.
        eckza 9y ago
        As an American, living in late capitalism, I do not see this as anything but extremely wishful thinking for 99% of the working population here. But if this sort of thing ever does happen, then I absolutely hope that it goes down as you've described.
        bmelton 9y ago
        Yes, your anti-capitalist intentions were pretty clear from your earlier post. Put simply, I do not share your views on the subject.
        eckza 9y ago
        That's fair. Sorry, I hope I didn't get too carried away. Thanks for the dialogue. :)
        bmelton 9y ago
        No need to apologize, I just don't agree. In the time I've been alive, I've seen more and more employers gravitating towards fewer hours, more lenient work schedules, etc. My first job was basically a minimum of 10 hours a day, and 6, sometimes 7 days a week. Nowadays, companies (especially in tech, mind you) are realizing the difficulty in recruiting / training / keeping personnel and are competing on benefits to the extent that 'unlimited' vacation days, telework, longer maternity and paternity leaves, etc. And before the obvious counterargument is made, this isn't limited just to technology (though it does seem to be blazing the trail.) Tech, agriculture, finance, business, and any industry in which recruiting and keeping talent are tricky are basically trading dollars for perks, and often, the result of that is that employees get to keep more of their personal time for themselves. Sure, this hasn't affected every industry, and for industries where labor is a commodity, it may never occur, but just as sure as you believe your scenario is the result of capitalism, I believe that the increase in perks / time / accommodation is the same.
  - ericd 9y ago
    I would guess that the brain also does some reorganization functions while you sleep, where redundant info is compressed, and resources are freed up so that you can reuse them. Being conscious a larger percentage of the time may inhibit this.
  - jimbokun 9y ago
    "Either way, I assume that nobody would force you to take a drug that you didn't want to take." Like hell they won't. It will become a social and economic imperative before you know it.
  - ionised 9y ago
    > anything more then 5.5 hours and I feel like I've thrown the day away. Statistically you are unlikely to be one of those people for whom 5-6 hours sleep daily is sufficient, so all you are doing to yourself is contributing to increased aggression, dulling of empathy and reduced impulse control that comes with insufficient sleep.
    - bmelton 9y ago
      I worked for 6 years in a 100% remote position, 3 timezones away from my employer, so as such, I kept a loose schedule. Eventually, I adopted the practice of just going to bed when I was tired, and waking up whenever I woke up. Sure, sometimes I was woken up by noises outside or what have you, but when I'd wake up on my own, usually it was between 4.5 to 5 hours from when I went to bed. I wasn't going to bed at regular hours, and I wasn't waking up to an alarm, so I guess I am in that group (also, I don't have increased aggression or impulse control, but I don't know how I'd measure empathy). That said, I did not realize that I was statistically rare, so thanks for pointing out that maybe my 5 hours a night advice isn't applicable to others. Regardless of the amount of time involved in sleeping, I still would prefer not to have to take it, if that were an option.
      - ionised 9y ago
        If you genuinely are one of those people that can deal with that much sleep and still function normally then fair enough, kudos to you (and I'm a little jealous).
clort 9y ago
some birds (and dolphins?) sleep one hemisphere at a time, so that they can keep flying
JoshCole 9y ago
I think from the evolutionary perspective, being active during a time of low fitness gets punished. So if there was an adaption that tended to paralyze something when it was dark out, that gets selected for even though obviously given optimal decisions not being paralyzed is better. Which, if you think about it, is kind of what is happening with sleep. So I imagine the trade-off isn't as severe as someone might guess; it's definitely theoretically possible to run entirely without sleep with the right hardware. For example, lets say sleep was fundamental to cognition. If you were willing to have redundant hardware, you could run two brains and just take turns sleeping them [1]. So that probably gives something of an upper-bound to efficiency. The problem is that a lot of stuff is getting built on top of these things. Scheduled downtime is getting used by other adaptions. Things like handling 'garbage collection' or 'waste collection' inline get shunted away to the downtime to improve response times. This keeps happening. Over short periods there are going to be plenty of cases where being paralyzed isn't optimal. What if something shows in the night? Long term though if the creature is continually staying active when its at disadvantage that's really bad. So additional penalties accrue to force the issue. Then the original 'purpose/benefit' starts getting lost. Things get messed up. Enough adaptions end up taking advantage of the fact that the downtime existed that now there is so much benefit to it for reasons unrelated to its initial creation that it starts becoming worth doing even at times where light levels aren't an issue. So now when you try to mess with sleep, you're not just messing with one little thing. You're messing with a whole bunch of different entangled processes. One to reduce activity during periods where the sensors suck. Another to prevent continued activity when the sensors suck. Another that handles waste. Another that starts up ML algorithms during the downtime to take advantage of the freed-up processing. Another that does data backup. The muscles use the downtime to start construction. Basically all over the body everyone is starting to get to work. It's like that tradeoff problem that gwern talks about with using notropics, where each one improves one thing but causes problems in other areas. So basically, it isn't a question of whether or not you need sleep from a theoretical process perspective. You don't, if you had a different design. But now sleep isn't just the reduce activity time because its night adaption. It's all tied up in everything else. You shorten the amount you sleep? You die younger, because you cancelled the bodies maintenance period. [1]: Which dolphins are kind of doing.
randcraw 9y ago
I think nature's solution to this kind of inefficiency arises by adopting a new social behavior rather than evolving a new DNA-based physical ability. It's easier and faster for a group of animals to appoint a guard to protect others during sleep than for the species to evolve a superior brain.

mrzool 9y ago

Why force things? I don't want 50% more waking hours. I enjoy my sleep tremendously.

bmelton 9y ago
I suspect (but do not know) that you enjoy your sleep because of its restorative effect. If you could obviate the need for the restorative effect, and instead just always feel newly restored, would you still enjoy going to sleep for no reason? Personally, I dislike the need for sleep. I put it off for as long as I can manage, and try to get as little of it as I can get away with. For me, I have a hard time functioning well with less than 4 hours a night, but anything more then 5.5 hours and I feel like I've thrown the day away. The idea of voluntarily checking out from the world isn't as relaxing to me as picking up a book to read, or learning something new, or doing something productive that isn't work/startup-related. Either way, I assume that nobody would force you to take a drug that you didn't want to take.
- eckza 9y ago
  Oh my god, think of what this would do to commerce, in terms of a capitalist society. Suddenly, you can take a drug that decreases your need for sleep by 50%. People only need 4h of sleep per night now, for a full nights' sleep - 3h, if you're willing to skimp a little, 2h isn't unheard of (in the way that only getting 4h of sleep a night, now, isn't unheard of either). Suddenly, there's a significant advantage in the hands of everyone willing to take this drug. Students are expected to study more and harder, because they don't need 8h of sleep every night. Entrance exams to schools get more difficult. Software developers are now enticed to work longer hours - longer hours than they already are. Labor / shift workers (hospitality / food industry) are expected to work longer shifts, and they have to, because businesses have to be open longer because more people are awake for more of the day. Now, also, you have to consider: this is just sleep, in terms of brain repair. Your body has to put itself back together every night, too - repairing microscopic muscle tears, fixing bruises, etc etc etc. Your body would probably start slowly falling apart on 2-3h of sleep per night, even if your mind was fully rested. I really, really hope this doesn't happen.
  - ChuckMcM 9y ago
    It is entirely possible that it would evolve differently, perhaps given that not everyone would be available during the 'dark' hours you might see a society evolve into dual function, where 8 hours were for 'working' and 8 hours were for 'community/family' with 8 hours split into two 4 hour segments as 'transition times'.
    - bmelton 9y ago
      I was thinking this as well. I suspect that it's impossible to predict, but I wouldn't think it unfathomable to imagine a world in which, with all the additional free time, society might evolve towards a more Italian ethos, in which we take longer lunches, and don't mind spending as much overall time 'at the office', though not necessarily working any more while there.
      - eckza 9y ago
        As an American, living in late capitalism, I do not see this as anything but extremely wishful thinking for 99% of the working population here. But if this sort of thing ever does happen, then I absolutely hope that it goes down as you've described.
        bmelton 9y ago
        Yes, your anti-capitalist intentions were pretty clear from your earlier post. Put simply, I do not share your views on the subject.
        eckza 9y ago
        That's fair. Sorry, I hope I didn't get too carried away. Thanks for the dialogue. :)
        bmelton 9y ago
        No need to apologize, I just don't agree. In the time I've been alive, I've seen more and more employers gravitating towards fewer hours, more lenient work schedules, etc. My first job was basically a minimum of 10 hours a day, and 6, sometimes 7 days a week. Nowadays, companies (especially in tech, mind you) are realizing the difficulty in recruiting / training / keeping personnel and are competing on benefits to the extent that 'unlimited' vacation days, telework, longer maternity and paternity leaves, etc. And before the obvious counterargument is made, this isn't limited just to technology (though it does seem to be blazing the trail.) Tech, agriculture, finance, business, and any industry in which recruiting and keeping talent are tricky are basically trading dollars for perks, and often, the result of that is that employees get to keep more of their personal time for themselves. Sure, this hasn't affected every industry, and for industries where labor is a commodity, it may never occur, but just as sure as you believe your scenario is the result of capitalism, I believe that the increase in perks / time / accommodation is the same.
- ericd 9y ago
  I would guess that the brain also does some reorganization functions while you sleep, where redundant info is compressed, and resources are freed up so that you can reuse them. Being conscious a larger percentage of the time may inhibit this.
- jimbokun 9y ago
  "Either way, I assume that nobody would force you to take a drug that you didn't want to take." Like hell they won't. It will become a social and economic imperative before you know it.
- ionised 9y ago
  > anything more then 5.5 hours and I feel like I've thrown the day away. Statistically you are unlikely to be one of those people for whom 5-6 hours sleep daily is sufficient, so all you are doing to yourself is contributing to increased aggression, dulling of empathy and reduced impulse control that comes with insufficient sleep.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    I worked for 6 years in a 100% remote position, 3 timezones away from my employer, so as such, I kept a loose schedule. Eventually, I adopted the practice of just going to bed when I was tired, and waking up whenever I woke up. Sure, sometimes I was woken up by noises outside or what have you, but when I'd wake up on my own, usually it was between 4.5 to 5 hours from when I went to bed. I wasn't going to bed at regular hours, and I wasn't waking up to an alarm, so I guess I am in that group (also, I don't have increased aggression or impulse control, but I don't know how I'd measure empathy). That said, I did not realize that I was statistically rare, so thanks for pointing out that maybe my 5 hours a night advice isn't applicable to others. Regardless of the amount of time involved in sleeping, I still would prefer not to have to take it, if that were an option.
    - ionised 9y ago
      If you genuinely are one of those people that can deal with that much sleep and still function normally then fair enough, kudos to you (and I'm a little jealous).

clort 9y ago

some birds (and dolphins?) sleep one hemisphere at a time, so that they can keep flying

JoshCole 9y ago

I think from the evolutionary perspective, being active during a time of low fitness gets punished. So if there was an adaption that tended to paralyze something when it was dark out, that gets selected for even though obviously given optimal decisions not being paralyzed is better. Which, if you think about it, is kind of what is happening with sleep. So I imagine the trade-off isn't as severe as someone might guess; it's definitely theoretically possible to run entirely without sleep with the right hardware. For example, lets say sleep was fundamental to cognition. If you were willing to have redundant hardware, you could run two brains and just take turns sleeping them [1]. So that probably gives something of an upper-bound to efficiency. The problem is that a lot of stuff is getting built on top of these things. Scheduled downtime is getting used by other adaptions. Things like handling 'garbage collection' or 'waste collection' inline get shunted away to the downtime to improve response times. This keeps happening. Over short periods there are going to be plenty of cases where being paralyzed isn't optimal. What if something shows in the night? Long term though if the creature is continually staying active when its at disadvantage that's really bad. So additional penalties accrue to force the issue. Then the original 'purpose/benefit' starts getting lost. Things get messed up. Enough adaptions end up taking advantage of the fact that the downtime existed that now there is so much benefit to it for reasons unrelated to its initial creation that it starts becoming worth doing even at times where light levels aren't an issue. So now when you try to mess with sleep, you're not just messing with one little thing. You're messing with a whole bunch of different entangled processes. One to reduce activity during periods where the sensors suck. Another to prevent continued activity when the sensors suck. Another that handles waste. Another that starts up ML algorithms during the downtime to take advantage of the freed-up processing. Another that does data backup. The muscles use the downtime to start construction. Basically all over the body everyone is starting to get to work. It's like that tradeoff problem that gwern talks about with using notropics, where each one improves one thing but causes problems in other areas. So basically, it isn't a question of whether or not you need sleep from a theoretical process perspective. You don't, if you had a different design. But now sleep isn't just the reduce activity time because its night adaption. It's all tied up in everything else. You shorten the amount you sleep? You die younger, because you cancelled the bodies maintenance period. [1]: Which dolphins are kind of doing.

randcraw 9y ago

I think nature's solution to this kind of inefficiency arises by adopting a new social behavior rather than evolving a new DNA-based physical ability. It's easier and faster for a group of animals to appoint a guard to protect others during sleep than for the species to evolve a superior brain.