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The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporat

by woah 10y ago

The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporate these mechanisms that people enjoy.

csydas 10y ago
I think you're somewhat understating the effect of the voting/like feedback. Even on HN which is fairly neutral to the whole social aspect of a message board, it's very clear that people take their karma seriously, even with rules specifically forbidding the meta-comments on down votes/up votes. The praise system works, it's addictive, and the biggest and largest source of the feedback is already set up, available, and provides exactly what people need. They know how to get what they want from it. To me, it doesn't seem that people are using Facebook for anything but the feedback loop; for every business, self employed person, or personality using Facebook to connect to fans, there are dozens of people just looking to get in on the feed to get a taste of that feedback. Look at announcement posts from any entity with a large following; the comments on it will get into the tens of thousands in an hour or two. The comments aren't discussing it, it's people seeing a vein open up for the feedback, and trying to tap it to get some likes or feedback. Reddit seems to have the same issue with the top rated posts on more populated subreddits being nothing but dumb puns that people rush out to be first with; scroll down far enough, and you'll see the exact same pun repeated by others who were too slow to post and missed their chance. Facebook isn't a communication platform really, it's a steady drip of endorphins as you can repeatedly live out your 15 minutes of fame over and over again, all while advertisers throw ads at you. Messenger is just a means to keep you in the platform. The point of my banal rant is that the idea of alternative networks has been bandied around since everyone's mom and dad got a facebook account, but every time it's addressed, it's always about feature parity and improvements instead of acknowledging that Facebook currently is best situated to feed that need for acknowledgement. Trying to fight on features, on policy, and so on is pointless because that's not why people are using Facebook. We saw how Twitter and Instagram started to steal Facebook users because of a more efficient means of providing the same feedback for users. Wider audience, less effort, and Facebook took notice, copying features directly from both platforms. It won't be just incorporating it, it will be ensuring that it's a better, faster, more efficient system for giving that gratification.
- Buttons840 10y ago
  I haven't used Facebook but I've seen the "Like" buttons all over the place? Is there no mechanism for negative feedback? If I post something ignorant and offensive is the only possible outcome positive feedback from Likes?
  - majewsky 10y ago
    Since last year, there are multiple "reactions" to choose from, "like" being one of them: https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-redesigned-like-button/ https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-red... But there is still no "dislike". The closest thing would be "sad" or "angry". And of course, it still has the same problem as "like": When someone presses "like" on coverage of the terrorist attack, does that mean that they liked the terrorist attack, or the particular way it was covered by the media?
    - niftich 10y ago
      The real purpose of multiple reactions is to help train their sentiment analysis models with human input. Amidst some noise like people who always click a particular one like 'love', or the posts that hijack the reactions as a multi-option poll (click 'like' for A, 'love' for B, 'haha' for C), a good amount of people pick an appropriately genuine reaction in response. This helps their automated sentiment analysis systems to classify content, and also helps surface a particular balance of content to you that Facebook deems appropriate (e.g. not posts that are likely to make you sad or angry at the top of the fold). The reason negative reactions are absent is because they don't want to pit people against each other. Everyone can have their own corner of the sandbox, and despite the common derision of today's 'filter bubble', I don't think when they plan on serving advertisements to billions of very different people with pre-existing allegiances, opinions, and beliefs, they could realistically afford to do otherwise.
      - bigbugbag 10y ago
        I would not be surprised if this was part of a follow-up to the infamous mood experiment where they manipulated facebook's useds moods through timeline tinkering.
nradov 10y ago
I've found that the "like" feature on Facebook has trained me to be a better photographer. After you post enough pictures you start to get a feel for which pictures people actually appreciate. So I'm now much more careful about composition and lighting, I've learned to do basic editing, and I'm more ruthless about deleting imperfect shots. These skills are transferrable to any other site or app.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  This is totally unrelated to facebook, this is a beaten path that many photographers have walked. Get better through practice and experienced. And you could have done the same by reading a book or two and practicing a lot. I have a friend that got a better photographer by spending time alone in the mountains, another by putting up her pictures for sale on dedicated website. Had you been part of reddit, flickr, imgur or any other community medium you could have done the same.
  - nradov 10y ago
    Sure but I was making a general point to defend the "like" system on modern social networks which was criticized as addictive. There's nothing special about Facebook in that regard. Photography books are great, I've read a few, but they don't give you feedback. Spending time alone in the mountains isn't a practical option for most of us.
    - sharun 10y ago
      My comment is not about eliminating the feedback loop. It's about delaying gratification. This is a core feature of any educational system that has arisen across any culture anywhere in the world. Instant gratification does the opposite. This link might help in understanding the point I am trying to make - https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversations-with-sal/a/the-learning-myth-why-ill-never-tell-my-son-hes-smart https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversatio...
    - rickdg 10y ago
      Between reddit and deviantart, facebook is probably the worse place to get likes for a photograph.
bigbugbag 10y ago
Internet points are not peer approval, but meaningless and valueless currency. If you believe 100 likes means 100 people actually liked and approved you are mistaken, I'd be surprise if 5-10 people out of 100 actually care when clicking the like button.

by woah 10y ago

The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporate these mechanisms that people enjoy.

csydas 10y ago

I think you're somewhat understating the effect of the voting/like feedback. Even on HN which is fairly neutral to the whole social aspect of a message board, it's very clear that people take their karma seriously, even with rules specifically forbidding the meta-comments on down votes/up votes. The praise system works, it's addictive, and the biggest and largest source of the feedback is already set up, available, and provides exactly what people need. They know how to get what they want from it. To me, it doesn't seem that people are using Facebook for anything but the feedback loop; for every business, self employed person, or personality using Facebook to connect to fans, there are dozens of people just looking to get in on the feed to get a taste of that feedback. Look at announcement posts from any entity with a large following; the comments on it will get into the tens of thousands in an hour or two. The comments aren't discussing it, it's people seeing a vein open up for the feedback, and trying to tap it to get some likes or feedback. Reddit seems to have the same issue with the top rated posts on more populated subreddits being nothing but dumb puns that people rush out to be first with; scroll down far enough, and you'll see the exact same pun repeated by others who were too slow to post and missed their chance. Facebook isn't a communication platform really, it's a steady drip of endorphins as you can repeatedly live out your 15 minutes of fame over and over again, all while advertisers throw ads at you. Messenger is just a means to keep you in the platform. The point of my banal rant is that the idea of alternative networks has been bandied around since everyone's mom and dad got a facebook account, but every time it's addressed, it's always about feature parity and improvements instead of acknowledging that Facebook currently is best situated to feed that need for acknowledgement. Trying to fight on features, on policy, and so on is pointless because that's not why people are using Facebook. We saw how Twitter and Instagram started to steal Facebook users because of a more efficient means of providing the same feedback for users. Wider audience, less effort, and Facebook took notice, copying features directly from both platforms. It won't be just incorporating it, it will be ensuring that it's a better, faster, more efficient system for giving that gratification.

Buttons840 10y ago
I haven't used Facebook but I've seen the "Like" buttons all over the place? Is there no mechanism for negative feedback? If I post something ignorant and offensive is the only possible outcome positive feedback from Likes?
- majewsky 10y ago
  Since last year, there are multiple "reactions" to choose from, "like" being one of them: https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-redesigned-like-button/ https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-red... But there is still no "dislike". The closest thing would be "sad" or "angry". And of course, it still has the same problem as "like": When someone presses "like" on coverage of the terrorist attack, does that mean that they liked the terrorist attack, or the particular way it was covered by the media?
  - niftich 10y ago
    The real purpose of multiple reactions is to help train their sentiment analysis models with human input. Amidst some noise like people who always click a particular one like 'love', or the posts that hijack the reactions as a multi-option poll (click 'like' for A, 'love' for B, 'haha' for C), a good amount of people pick an appropriately genuine reaction in response. This helps their automated sentiment analysis systems to classify content, and also helps surface a particular balance of content to you that Facebook deems appropriate (e.g. not posts that are likely to make you sad or angry at the top of the fold). The reason negative reactions are absent is because they don't want to pit people against each other. Everyone can have their own corner of the sandbox, and despite the common derision of today's 'filter bubble', I don't think when they plan on serving advertisements to billions of very different people with pre-existing allegiances, opinions, and beliefs, they could realistically afford to do otherwise.
    - bigbugbag 10y ago
      I would not be surprised if this was part of a follow-up to the infamous mood experiment where they manipulated facebook's useds moods through timeline tinkering.

nradov 10y ago

I've found that the "like" feature on Facebook has trained me to be a better photographer. After you post enough pictures you start to get a feel for which pictures people actually appreciate. So I'm now much more careful about composition and lighting, I've learned to do basic editing, and I'm more ruthless about deleting imperfect shots. These skills are transferrable to any other site or app.

bigbugbag 10y ago
This is totally unrelated to facebook, this is a beaten path that many photographers have walked. Get better through practice and experienced. And you could have done the same by reading a book or two and practicing a lot. I have a friend that got a better photographer by spending time alone in the mountains, another by putting up her pictures for sale on dedicated website. Had you been part of reddit, flickr, imgur or any other community medium you could have done the same.
- nradov 10y ago
  Sure but I was making a general point to defend the "like" system on modern social networks which was criticized as addictive. There's nothing special about Facebook in that regard. Photography books are great, I've read a few, but they don't give you feedback. Spending time alone in the mountains isn't a practical option for most of us.
  - sharun 10y ago
    My comment is not about eliminating the feedback loop. It's about delaying gratification. This is a core feature of any educational system that has arisen across any culture anywhere in the world. Instant gratification does the opposite. This link might help in understanding the point I am trying to make - https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversations-with-sal/a/the-learning-myth-why-ill-never-tell-my-son-hes-smart https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversatio...
  - rickdg 10y ago
    Between reddit and deviantart, facebook is probably the worse place to get likes for a photograph.

bigbugbag 10y ago

Internet points are not peer approval, but meaningless and valueless currency. If you believe 100 likes means 100 people actually liked and approved you are mistaken, I'd be surprise if 5-10 people out of 100 actually care when clicking the like button.