6 ms·

The fix is easy. The root cause is the like/retweet/upvote/view count and the instant gratification it produces. The social networks like FB/Twitter/Youtube b

by sharun 9y ago

The fix is easy. The root cause is the like/retweet/upvote/view count and the instant gratification it produces. The social networks like FB/Twitter/Youtube benefit greatly from all their users being addicted to these counts. They know this. Its like a drug they peddle that produces a false high. So whats the fix? Rather than giving their users instant feedback and gratification if they just delay it for a bit or change the signaling(ie replace the numbers with color gradients,number less charts etc), most of unintended consequences we see of social networks (like fake news, celeb-worship, attention harvesting, mob rule, re-enforcing echo chambers of hate/rascism etc) will not disappear but get more controllable. Expecting Google and Facebook to do this by themselves is like expecting Wall Street to self regulate and the NSA to come out with a road map to ending secret data collection. Its not going to happen. They have to be strong armed, forced and publicly shamed into it. And that is going to happen sooner or later whether they like it or not. Because the consequences are pilling up.

woah 9y ago
The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporate these mechanisms that people enjoy.
- csydas 9y ago
  I think you're somewhat understating the effect of the voting/like feedback. Even on HN which is fairly neutral to the whole social aspect of a message board, it's very clear that people take their karma seriously, even with rules specifically forbidding the meta-comments on down votes/up votes. The praise system works, it's addictive, and the biggest and largest source of the feedback is already set up, available, and provides exactly what people need. They know how to get what they want from it. To me, it doesn't seem that people are using Facebook for anything but the feedback loop; for every business, self employed person, or personality using Facebook to connect to fans, there are dozens of people just looking to get in on the feed to get a taste of that feedback. Look at announcement posts from any entity with a large following; the comments on it will get into the tens of thousands in an hour or two. The comments aren't discussing it, it's people seeing a vein open up for the feedback, and trying to tap it to get some likes or feedback. Reddit seems to have the same issue with the top rated posts on more populated subreddits being nothing but dumb puns that people rush out to be first with; scroll down far enough, and you'll see the exact same pun repeated by others who were too slow to post and missed their chance. Facebook isn't a communication platform really, it's a steady drip of endorphins as you can repeatedly live out your 15 minutes of fame over and over again, all while advertisers throw ads at you. Messenger is just a means to keep you in the platform. The point of my banal rant is that the idea of alternative networks has been bandied around since everyone's mom and dad got a facebook account, but every time it's addressed, it's always about feature parity and improvements instead of acknowledging that Facebook currently is best situated to feed that need for acknowledgement. Trying to fight on features, on policy, and so on is pointless because that's not why people are using Facebook. We saw how Twitter and Instagram started to steal Facebook users because of a more efficient means of providing the same feedback for users. Wider audience, less effort, and Facebook took notice, copying features directly from both platforms. It won't be just incorporating it, it will be ensuring that it's a better, faster, more efficient system for giving that gratification.
  - Buttons840 9y ago
    I haven't used Facebook but I've seen the "Like" buttons all over the place? Is there no mechanism for negative feedback? If I post something ignorant and offensive is the only possible outcome positive feedback from Likes?
    - majewsky 9y ago
      Since last year, there are multiple "reactions" to choose from, "like" being one of them: https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-redesigned-like-button/ https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-red... But there is still no "dislike". The closest thing would be "sad" or "angry". And of course, it still has the same problem as "like": When someone presses "like" on coverage of the terrorist attack, does that mean that they liked the terrorist attack, or the particular way it was covered by the media?
      - niftich 9y ago
        The real purpose of multiple reactions is to help train their sentiment analysis models with human input. Amidst some noise like people who always click a particular one like 'love', or the posts that hijack the reactions as a multi-option poll (click 'like' for A, 'love' for B, 'haha' for C), a good amount of people pick an appropriately genuine reaction in response. This helps their automated sentiment analysis systems to classify content, and also helps surface a particular balance of content to you that Facebook deems appropriate (e.g. not posts that are likely to make you sad or angry at the top of the fold). The reason negative reactions are absent is because they don't want to pit people against each other. Everyone can have their own corner of the sandbox, and despite the common derision of today's 'filter bubble', I don't think when they plan on serving advertisements to billions of very different people with pre-existing allegiances, opinions, and beliefs, they could realistically afford to do otherwise.
        bigbugbag 9y ago
        I would not be surprised if this was part of a follow-up to the infamous mood experiment where they manipulated facebook's useds moods through timeline tinkering.
- nradov 9y ago
  I've found that the "like" feature on Facebook has trained me to be a better photographer. After you post enough pictures you start to get a feel for which pictures people actually appreciate. So I'm now much more careful about composition and lighting, I've learned to do basic editing, and I'm more ruthless about deleting imperfect shots. These skills are transferrable to any other site or app.
  - bigbugbag 9y ago
    This is totally unrelated to facebook, this is a beaten path that many photographers have walked. Get better through practice and experienced. And you could have done the same by reading a book or two and practicing a lot. I have a friend that got a better photographer by spending time alone in the mountains, another by putting up her pictures for sale on dedicated website. Had you been part of reddit, flickr, imgur or any other community medium you could have done the same.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Sure but I was making a general point to defend the "like" system on modern social networks which was criticized as addictive. There's nothing special about Facebook in that regard. Photography books are great, I've read a few, but they don't give you feedback. Spending time alone in the mountains isn't a practical option for most of us.
      - sharun 9y ago
        My comment is not about eliminating the feedback loop. It's about delaying gratification. This is a core feature of any educational system that has arisen across any culture anywhere in the world. Instant gratification does the opposite. This link might help in understanding the point I am trying to make - https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversations-with-sal/a/the-learning-myth-why-ill-never-tell-my-son-hes-smart https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversatio...
      - rickdg 9y ago
        Between reddit and deviantart, facebook is probably the worse place to get likes for a photograph.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  Internet points are not peer approval, but meaningless and valueless currency. If you believe 100 likes means 100 people actually liked and approved you are mistaken, I'd be surprise if 5-10 people out of 100 actually care when clicking the like button.
m-j-fox 9y ago
It's also fun to play for downvote, which Facebook discourages. But HN is one fun place to troll. Bitch.
always_good 9y ago
So, the fix is for the government to start banning likes? It's really hard to take these comments seriously. Most of yall seem condescending and firmly out of touch with why people use Facebook. Everyone on the platform doesn't need to be saved by HN just because you know a few narcissists.
- rexpop 9y ago
  As silly as sharun's solution is, many of us are becoming a society of addicts, not "a few narcissists."
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  The reason people use facebook, (though many hate it) is two fold: 1) because people use facebook 2) because facebook exploit unconscious brain mechanisms to keep people engaged. The reason alternatives do gain traction is 1) because people use facebook 2) because they don't use such antipatterns. Sharun has a valid point, instant gratification is among the mechanisms facebook exploit to keep people inside their walled prison and removing this would have a significant impact. Though I'd rather see a strong privacy law forbidding surveillance capitalism and/or removal of advertising. We may see something like if the EU suspends the privacy shield and implements their privacy measure that would force facebook to stop collecting data of all Europeans.
  - always_good 9y ago
    I like how HNers who deleted their Facebook account suggest that everyone else is an addict being unconsciously manipulated by BigCo, ...but they escaped! They're not like those other mindless drones! And they're back to save the masses!
nradov 9y ago
Which consequences?
allenz 9y ago
Instant gratification exacerbates the network effect, but it's not the root problem. A decentralized social network could provide the same upvotes and be just as addictive. I think the root problem is economic. There's no profit to be made in a perfectly competitive market, so companies that build barriers to entry such as closed networks and refined proprietary software have the resources to outcompete companies that don't. Slack can hire a lot more engineers than mIRC.

by sharun 9y ago

woah 9y ago

The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporate these mechanisms that people enjoy.

csydas 9y ago
I think you're somewhat understating the effect of the voting/like feedback. Even on HN which is fairly neutral to the whole social aspect of a message board, it's very clear that people take their karma seriously, even with rules specifically forbidding the meta-comments on down votes/up votes. The praise system works, it's addictive, and the biggest and largest source of the feedback is already set up, available, and provides exactly what people need. They know how to get what they want from it. To me, it doesn't seem that people are using Facebook for anything but the feedback loop; for every business, self employed person, or personality using Facebook to connect to fans, there are dozens of people just looking to get in on the feed to get a taste of that feedback. Look at announcement posts from any entity with a large following; the comments on it will get into the tens of thousands in an hour or two. The comments aren't discussing it, it's people seeing a vein open up for the feedback, and trying to tap it to get some likes or feedback. Reddit seems to have the same issue with the top rated posts on more populated subreddits being nothing but dumb puns that people rush out to be first with; scroll down far enough, and you'll see the exact same pun repeated by others who were too slow to post and missed their chance. Facebook isn't a communication platform really, it's a steady drip of endorphins as you can repeatedly live out your 15 minutes of fame over and over again, all while advertisers throw ads at you. Messenger is just a means to keep you in the platform. The point of my banal rant is that the idea of alternative networks has been bandied around since everyone's mom and dad got a facebook account, but every time it's addressed, it's always about feature parity and improvements instead of acknowledging that Facebook currently is best situated to feed that need for acknowledgement. Trying to fight on features, on policy, and so on is pointless because that's not why people are using Facebook. We saw how Twitter and Instagram started to steal Facebook users because of a more efficient means of providing the same feedback for users. Wider audience, less effort, and Facebook took notice, copying features directly from both platforms. It won't be just incorporating it, it will be ensuring that it's a better, faster, more efficient system for giving that gratification.
- Buttons840 9y ago
  I haven't used Facebook but I've seen the "Like" buttons all over the place? Is there no mechanism for negative feedback? If I post something ignorant and offensive is the only possible outcome positive feedback from Likes?
  - majewsky 9y ago
    Since last year, there are multiple "reactions" to choose from, "like" being one of them: https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-redesigned-like-button/ https://www.wired.com/2016/02/facebook-reactions-totally-red... But there is still no "dislike". The closest thing would be "sad" or "angry". And of course, it still has the same problem as "like": When someone presses "like" on coverage of the terrorist attack, does that mean that they liked the terrorist attack, or the particular way it was covered by the media?
    - niftich 9y ago
      The real purpose of multiple reactions is to help train their sentiment analysis models with human input. Amidst some noise like people who always click a particular one like 'love', or the posts that hijack the reactions as a multi-option poll (click 'like' for A, 'love' for B, 'haha' for C), a good amount of people pick an appropriately genuine reaction in response. This helps their automated sentiment analysis systems to classify content, and also helps surface a particular balance of content to you that Facebook deems appropriate (e.g. not posts that are likely to make you sad or angry at the top of the fold). The reason negative reactions are absent is because they don't want to pit people against each other. Everyone can have their own corner of the sandbox, and despite the common derision of today's 'filter bubble', I don't think when they plan on serving advertisements to billions of very different people with pre-existing allegiances, opinions, and beliefs, they could realistically afford to do otherwise.
      - bigbugbag 9y ago
        I would not be surprised if this was part of a follow-up to the infamous mood experiment where they manipulated facebook's useds moods through timeline tinkering.
nradov 9y ago
I've found that the "like" feature on Facebook has trained me to be a better photographer. After you post enough pictures you start to get a feel for which pictures people actually appreciate. So I'm now much more careful about composition and lighting, I've learned to do basic editing, and I'm more ruthless about deleting imperfect shots. These skills are transferrable to any other site or app.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  This is totally unrelated to facebook, this is a beaten path that many photographers have walked. Get better through practice and experienced. And you could have done the same by reading a book or two and practicing a lot. I have a friend that got a better photographer by spending time alone in the mountains, another by putting up her pictures for sale on dedicated website. Had you been part of reddit, flickr, imgur or any other community medium you could have done the same.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Sure but I was making a general point to defend the "like" system on modern social networks which was criticized as addictive. There's nothing special about Facebook in that regard. Photography books are great, I've read a few, but they don't give you feedback. Spending time alone in the mountains isn't a practical option for most of us.
    - sharun 9y ago
      My comment is not about eliminating the feedback loop. It's about delaying gratification. This is a core feature of any educational system that has arisen across any culture anywhere in the world. Instant gratification does the opposite. This link might help in understanding the point I am trying to make - https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversations-with-sal/a/the-learning-myth-why-ill-never-tell-my-son-hes-smart https://www.khanacademy.org/talks-and-interviews/conversatio...
    - rickdg 9y ago
      Between reddit and deviantart, facebook is probably the worse place to get likes for a photograph.
bigbugbag 9y ago
Internet points are not peer approval, but meaningless and valueless currency. If you believe 100 likes means 100 people actually liked and approved you are mistaken, I'd be surprise if 5-10 people out of 100 actually care when clicking the like button.

m-j-fox 9y ago

It's also fun to play for downvote, which Facebook discourages. But HN is one fun place to troll. Bitch.

always_good 9y ago

So, the fix is for the government to start banning likes? It's really hard to take these comments seriously. Most of yall seem condescending and firmly out of touch with why people use Facebook. Everyone on the platform doesn't need to be saved by HN just because you know a few narcissists.

rexpop 9y ago
As silly as sharun's solution is, many of us are becoming a society of addicts, not "a few narcissists."
bigbugbag 9y ago
The reason people use facebook, (though many hate it) is two fold: 1) because people use facebook 2) because facebook exploit unconscious brain mechanisms to keep people engaged. The reason alternatives do gain traction is 1) because people use facebook 2) because they don't use such antipatterns. Sharun has a valid point, instant gratification is among the mechanisms facebook exploit to keep people inside their walled prison and removing this would have a significant impact. Though I'd rather see a strong privacy law forbidding surveillance capitalism and/or removal of advertising. We may see something like if the EU suspends the privacy shield and implements their privacy measure that would force facebook to stop collecting data of all Europeans.
- always_good 9y ago
  I like how HNers who deleted their Facebook account suggest that everyone else is an addict being unconsciously manipulated by BigCo, ...but they escaped! They're not like those other mindless drones! And they're back to save the masses!

nradov 9y ago

Which consequences?

allenz 9y ago

Instant gratification exacerbates the network effect, but it's not the root problem. A decentralized social network could provide the same upvotes and be just as addictive. I think the root problem is economic. There's no profit to be made in a perfectly competitive market, so companies that build barriers to entry such as closed networks and refined proprietary software have the resources to outcompete companies that don't. Slack can hire a lot more engineers than mIRC.