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We need interconnected networks to succeed again. Remember when the internet was all about services based on open protocols that could talk to one another? I do

We need interconnected networks to succeed again. Remember when the internet was all about services based on open protocols that could talk to one another? I do. We've moved away from that in no small part to the fact that it isn't in the interest of the Facebooks and Googles of the world, who want to BE the internet rather than just a part of it. Everyone has a closed off messaging system. Platforms are working harder to bring content into their wall so you don't ever have to leave to get it. I'm not sure how to fix this now, as the answers (xmpp, openid, diaspora, matrix) don't seem to be gaining a huge amount of traction, either because they are too difficult to use, lack important features, or because most users don't care. Either way if we can't figure out a way to bring that spirit of interconnectedness and decentralization back to the internet I'm afraid that the situation will continue to deteriorate.

sharun 10y ago
The fix is easy. The root cause is the like/retweet/upvote/view count and the instant gratification it produces. The social networks like FB/Twitter/Youtube benefit greatly from all their users being addicted to these counts. They know this. Its like a drug they peddle that produces a false high. So whats the fix? Rather than giving their users instant feedback and gratification if they just delay it for a bit or change the signaling(ie replace the numbers with color gradients,number less charts etc), most of unintended consequences we see of social networks (like fake news, celeb-worship, attention harvesting, mob rule, re-enforcing echo chambers of hate/rascism etc) will not disappear but get more controllable. Expecting Google and Facebook to do this by themselves is like expecting Wall Street to self regulate and the NSA to come out with a road map to ending secret data collection. Its not going to happen. They have to be strong armed, forced and publicly shamed into it. And that is going to happen sooner or later whether they like it or not. Because the consequences are pilling up.
- woah 10y ago
  The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporate these mechanisms that people enjoy.
  - csydas 10y ago
    I think you're somewhat understating the effect of the voting/like feedback. Even on HN which is fairly neutral to the whole social aspect of a message board, it's very clear that people take their karma seriously, even with rules specifically forbidding the meta-comments on down votes/up votes. The praise system works, it's addictive, and the biggest and largest source of the feedback is already set up, available, and provides exactly what people need. They know how to get what they want from it. To me, it doesn't seem that people are using Facebook for anything but the feedback loop; for every business, self employed person, or personality using Facebook to connect to fans, there are dozens of people just looking to get in on the feed to get a taste of that feedback. Look at announcement posts from any entity with a large following; the comments on it will get into the tens of thousands in an hour or two. The comments aren't discussing it, it's people seeing a vein open up for the feedback, and trying to tap it to get some likes or feedback. Reddit seems to have the same issue with the top rated posts on more populated subreddits being nothing but dumb puns that people rush out to be first with; scroll down far enough, and you'll see the exact same pun repeated by others who were too slow to post and missed their chance. Facebook isn't a communication platform really, it's a steady drip of endorphins as you can repeatedly live out your 15 minutes of fame over and over again, all while advertisers throw ads at you. Messenger is just a means to keep you in the platform. The point of my banal rant is that the idea of alternative networks has been bandied around since everyone's mom and dad got a facebook account, but every time it's addressed, it's always about feature parity and improvements instead of acknowledging that Facebook currently is best situated to feed that need for acknowledgement. Trying to fight on features, on policy, and so on is pointless because that's not why people are using Facebook. We saw how Twitter and Instagram started to steal Facebook users because of a more efficient means of providing the same feedback for users. Wider audience, less effort, and Facebook took notice, copying features directly from both platforms. It won't be just incorporating it, it will be ensuring that it's a better, faster, more efficient system for giving that gratification.
    - Buttons840 10y ago
      I haven't used Facebook but I've seen the "Like" buttons all over the place? Is there no mechanism for negative feedback? If I post something ignorant and offensive is the only possible outcome positive feedback from Likes?
- m-j-fox 10y ago
  It's also fun to play for downvote, which Facebook discourages. But HN is one fun place to troll. Bitch.
- always_good 10y ago
  So, the fix is for the government to start banning likes? It's really hard to take these comments seriously. Most of yall seem condescending and firmly out of touch with why people use Facebook. Everyone on the platform doesn't need to be saved by HN just because you know a few narcissists.
  - rexpop 10y ago
    As silly as sharun's solution is, many of us are becoming a society of addicts, not "a few narcissists."
  - bigbugbag 10y ago
    The reason people use facebook, (though many hate it) is two fold: 1) because people use facebook 2) because facebook exploit unconscious brain mechanisms to keep people engaged. The reason alternatives do gain traction is 1) because people use facebook 2) because they don't use such antipatterns. Sharun has a valid point, instant gratification is among the mechanisms facebook exploit to keep people inside their walled prison and removing this would have a significant impact. Though I'd rather see a strong privacy law forbidding surveillance capitalism and/or removal of advertising. We may see something like if the EU suspends the privacy shield and implements their privacy measure that would force facebook to stop collecting data of all Europeans.
    - always_good 10y ago
      I like how HNers who deleted their Facebook account suggest that everyone else is an addict being unconsciously manipulated by BigCo, ...but they escaped! They're not like those other mindless drones! And they're back to save the masses!
- nradov 10y ago
  Which consequences?
- allenz 10y ago
  Instant gratification exacerbates the network effect, but it's not the root problem. A decentralized social network could provide the same upvotes and be just as addictive. I think the root problem is economic. There's no profit to be made in a perfectly competitive market, so companies that build barriers to entry such as closed networks and refined proprietary software have the resources to outcompete companies that don't. Slack can hire a lot more engineers than mIRC.
newsat13 10y ago
It's really "because most users don't care". When go out to buy a TV or a car or a fridge, I just get the best one out there. I don't do research on whether they are based on open specifications/protocols. I don't even do research on if most of the product is made in my home country (instead of China). And I say this as a free software developer. I imagine this is the same flow of purchase that non-techies are making. They don't know, understand or care. They just want to use the best product. Unless these interconnected networks provide a benefit (UX or some feature) to the common non-techie, they won't succeed.
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  Most user do care, but they lack time as they have to work constantly to pay rent, school, food and repay debt, or study. If you bought a TV/car/fridge that is not compatible with your electricity source suddenly you'd notice how it was nice that they followed the open specifications and protocols and that you had no idea the reason they work was because they did.
  - newsat13 10y ago
    Isn't this exactly what the case is with Apple products? They make adapters and software not compatible with anything else. People don't seem to care and just pay up and buy Macs even.. (all huge investments)
lowglow 10y ago
Reminds me of what https://indieweb.org/ https://indieweb.org/ is pushing as well
lj3 10y ago
> they are too difficult to use, lack important features That would be the two reasons nobody messes with XMPP anymore. The reason most of those protocols wound up on the trash heap is a lack of competent stewardship. Too much design by committee, not enough benevolent dictators. The solution? Create better protocols with better communities surrounding them. They have to be head and shoulders better than rolling your own, though, and it will be harder this time around to convince people to use your stuff. Too many people got burned the last time around.
bigbugbag 10y ago
The situation has already deteriorated to the point that we have talk warning us of a possible upcoming death of transit[1]. [1]: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/gih/the-death-of-transit https://labs.ripe.net/Members/gih/the-death-of-transit

sharun 10y ago

The fix is easy. The root cause is the like/retweet/upvote/view count and the instant gratification it produces. The social networks like FB/Twitter/Youtube benefit greatly from all their users being addicted to these counts. They know this. Its like a drug they peddle that produces a false high. So whats the fix? Rather than giving their users instant feedback and gratification if they just delay it for a bit or change the signaling(ie replace the numbers with color gradients,number less charts etc), most of unintended consequences we see of social networks (like fake news, celeb-worship, attention harvesting, mob rule, re-enforcing echo chambers of hate/rascism etc) will not disappear but get more controllable. Expecting Google and Facebook to do this by themselves is like expecting Wall Street to self regulate and the NSA to come out with a road map to ending secret data collection. Its not going to happen. They have to be strong armed, forced and publicly shamed into it. And that is going to happen sooner or later whether they like it or not. Because the consequences are pilling up.

woah 10y ago
The fact that people like to get approval from their peers is a sinister conspiracy? I think it's important for alternative decentralized networks to incorporate these mechanisms that people enjoy.
- csydas 10y ago
  I think you're somewhat understating the effect of the voting/like feedback. Even on HN which is fairly neutral to the whole social aspect of a message board, it's very clear that people take their karma seriously, even with rules specifically forbidding the meta-comments on down votes/up votes. The praise system works, it's addictive, and the biggest and largest source of the feedback is already set up, available, and provides exactly what people need. They know how to get what they want from it. To me, it doesn't seem that people are using Facebook for anything but the feedback loop; for every business, self employed person, or personality using Facebook to connect to fans, there are dozens of people just looking to get in on the feed to get a taste of that feedback. Look at announcement posts from any entity with a large following; the comments on it will get into the tens of thousands in an hour or two. The comments aren't discussing it, it's people seeing a vein open up for the feedback, and trying to tap it to get some likes or feedback. Reddit seems to have the same issue with the top rated posts on more populated subreddits being nothing but dumb puns that people rush out to be first with; scroll down far enough, and you'll see the exact same pun repeated by others who were too slow to post and missed their chance. Facebook isn't a communication platform really, it's a steady drip of endorphins as you can repeatedly live out your 15 minutes of fame over and over again, all while advertisers throw ads at you. Messenger is just a means to keep you in the platform. The point of my banal rant is that the idea of alternative networks has been bandied around since everyone's mom and dad got a facebook account, but every time it's addressed, it's always about feature parity and improvements instead of acknowledging that Facebook currently is best situated to feed that need for acknowledgement. Trying to fight on features, on policy, and so on is pointless because that's not why people are using Facebook. We saw how Twitter and Instagram started to steal Facebook users because of a more efficient means of providing the same feedback for users. Wider audience, less effort, and Facebook took notice, copying features directly from both platforms. It won't be just incorporating it, it will be ensuring that it's a better, faster, more efficient system for giving that gratification.
  - Buttons840 10y ago
    I haven't used Facebook but I've seen the "Like" buttons all over the place? Is there no mechanism for negative feedback? If I post something ignorant and offensive is the only possible outcome positive feedback from Likes?
m-j-fox 10y ago
It's also fun to play for downvote, which Facebook discourages. But HN is one fun place to troll. Bitch.
always_good 10y ago
So, the fix is for the government to start banning likes? It's really hard to take these comments seriously. Most of yall seem condescending and firmly out of touch with why people use Facebook. Everyone on the platform doesn't need to be saved by HN just because you know a few narcissists.
- rexpop 10y ago
  As silly as sharun's solution is, many of us are becoming a society of addicts, not "a few narcissists."
- bigbugbag 10y ago
  The reason people use facebook, (though many hate it) is two fold: 1) because people use facebook 2) because facebook exploit unconscious brain mechanisms to keep people engaged. The reason alternatives do gain traction is 1) because people use facebook 2) because they don't use such antipatterns. Sharun has a valid point, instant gratification is among the mechanisms facebook exploit to keep people inside their walled prison and removing this would have a significant impact. Though I'd rather see a strong privacy law forbidding surveillance capitalism and/or removal of advertising. We may see something like if the EU suspends the privacy shield and implements their privacy measure that would force facebook to stop collecting data of all Europeans.
  - always_good 10y ago
    I like how HNers who deleted their Facebook account suggest that everyone else is an addict being unconsciously manipulated by BigCo, ...but they escaped! They're not like those other mindless drones! And they're back to save the masses!
nradov 10y ago
Which consequences?
allenz 10y ago
Instant gratification exacerbates the network effect, but it's not the root problem. A decentralized social network could provide the same upvotes and be just as addictive. I think the root problem is economic. There's no profit to be made in a perfectly competitive market, so companies that build barriers to entry such as closed networks and refined proprietary software have the resources to outcompete companies that don't. Slack can hire a lot more engineers than mIRC.

newsat13 10y ago

It's really "because most users don't care". When go out to buy a TV or a car or a fridge, I just get the best one out there. I don't do research on whether they are based on open specifications/protocols. I don't even do research on if most of the product is made in my home country (instead of China). And I say this as a free software developer. I imagine this is the same flow of purchase that non-techies are making. They don't know, understand or care. They just want to use the best product. Unless these interconnected networks provide a benefit (UX or some feature) to the common non-techie, they won't succeed.

bigbugbag 10y ago
Most user do care, but they lack time as they have to work constantly to pay rent, school, food and repay debt, or study. If you bought a TV/car/fridge that is not compatible with your electricity source suddenly you'd notice how it was nice that they followed the open specifications and protocols and that you had no idea the reason they work was because they did.
- newsat13 10y ago
  Isn't this exactly what the case is with Apple products? They make adapters and software not compatible with anything else. People don't seem to care and just pay up and buy Macs even.. (all huge investments)

lowglow 10y ago

Reminds me of what https://indieweb.org/ https://indieweb.org/ is pushing as well

lj3 10y ago

> they are too difficult to use, lack important features That would be the two reasons nobody messes with XMPP anymore. The reason most of those protocols wound up on the trash heap is a lack of competent stewardship. Too much design by committee, not enough benevolent dictators. The solution? Create better protocols with better communities surrounding them. They have to be head and shoulders better than rolling your own, though, and it will be harder this time around to convince people to use your stuff. Too many people got burned the last time around.

bigbugbag 10y ago

The situation has already deteriorated to the point that we have talk warning us of a possible upcoming death of transit[1]. [1]: https://labs.ripe.net/Members/gih/the-death-of-transit https://labs.ripe.net/Members/gih/the-death-of-transit