8 ms·

Pixels Don’t Care (2013)

287 points by jw2013 9y ago

HeavenBanned 9y ago
Yes, yes, you're so genius that nobody could respect your genius at a young age. Crocodile tears from child prodigies don't hold much weight for me, I have to say, regardless of how much "pain" you went through.
tyingq 9y ago
Good for him. I had a similar experience. Had to slog it out at low wages long enough to have a real work history with recognizable clients. He seems a little more bitter about it than I was. Trust is part of the game, and people just naturally, and subconsciously look for signals that you're the real deal.
- Baeocystin 9y ago
  I think he would benefit from putting a little more thought in to why people might judge someone very young as being responsible enough/capable enough/etc. It is not just, or even mostly, prejudice.
0xcde4c3db 9y ago
Previously known as "on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet%2C_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet%2C_nobody_know...
- dom0 9y ago
  In the IoT age: On the internet, nobody knows you're a fridge.
  - ansgri 9y ago
    Conversely: anybody knows what's in your fridge better than you do.
pasta 9y ago
This sounds similar to a post of a blind programmer. Those are good arguments for privacy. Sometimes you got something to hide. Not a crime but because you don't want to be discriminated. Sad that it has to be this way.
- mistercow 9y ago
  To me, this is the main argument for privacy. When I hear people say "I've got nothing to hide, so I've got nothing to fear", I immediately think "Well aren't you lucky?" Having nothing to hide is a privilege, but the weird thing about that mentality is that I think very few people actually have that privilege. How many people, for example, would not be negatively impacted if the text conversations around their last relationship breakup were made public? We all have vulnerabilities, and privacy is about choosing who we trust to know them. So anyone who believes that they have nothing to hide is either unaware of how dangerous the world is, or hasn't properly taken stock of what could be used against them, and how. Discrimination is one of the most common ways that your vulnerabilities can used against you, but it's not the only one.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    I've thought about, and used, two possibly opposing, strategies to make life easier for others: (a) Insist on privacy especially when you have "nothing to hide". I once refused to send a photo with an application (which is still a thing with the really slow-to-adapt companies in my country). I'm square in the majority in any characteristic a photo may reveal, but I was hoping to give some cover to those who don't want to give a photo for whatever reason, and fear being judged just for that. (b): I'm rather careless with some information that others would be afraid to reveal, hoping to normalize it ever so slightly. There are still too many things that are really really common, but taboo to mention because nobody knows how common they are because it's taboo... Examples may be mental health issues, being bisexual/poly/etc. Also, if you are in high regard and can afford it, you can do everyone a favour by rejecting certain common but harmful practices: Are you no longer productive at 4pm because you didn't sleep well? Go home!
    - 9y ago
pitaj 9y ago
Great story. I came upon my current job in a similar fashion, and I love it. Can a mod change the title to read (2013) since this article is fairly old, though?
aj7 9y ago
That's great Kyle. I once worked for a German laser company where promotions to the highest positions were based mainly on physical height.
- HenryBemis 9y ago
  "German"... I wunder why!!
- Kenji 9y ago
  Bloody hell. What? Did that company do well? Is sounds like this promotion scheme is a fast way to bankruptcy.
- akvadrako 9y ago
  I assume that usually applies during stand-ups. It's only natural.
- gspetr 9y ago
  Was Dirk Nowitzki[0] the owner or at least a board member? [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki
EGreg 9y ago
And this is why I think fulltime employment is the wrong way to go for many people today. In fact the whole "we are an institution and you are a peon" mentality needs to be disrupted. More companies should hire on a project basis and share the revenues. More companies should try holacracy and abolish a top down chain of command for everything. Then people can really will be compensated on their merit, ie their contributions. In our own company, I laid out how we do it https://qbix.com/blog https://qbix.com/blog ... would welcome your thoughts.
- xamuel 9y ago
  >compensated on their ... contributions Kiss goodbye to any kind of code hygiene. >abolish a top down chain of command You now have a squeaky wheel company. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
- alexchamberlain 9y ago
  To be honest, I don't like the Qbix Compensation Model. One reason to work for someone else is that they are taking the risk. Within reason, no matter what I do at work, I'll get paid the same at the end of the month. Yes, there is the risk the company could go out of business (a form of job security I guess), and yes, I would expect a fair annual review, but ultimately, I'm able to plan in the medium term for a consistent income.
  - Asooka 9y ago
    What if we had stronger unemployment benefits and some form of UBI? I.e. if you take a risky job, the government insures some part of your pay (e.g. up to 2000$/mo), and if everything tanks you can still fall on a UBI and pay the bills and buy food.
  - EGreg 9y ago
    Stability at the cost of autonomy breeds complacency, which is the opposite of OP's attitude. Presumably he lived with his parents. But he wants to be paid for his work commensurate with his contributions. Means tested welfare has the same problems as full time employment: people are so used to that paycheck that they are afraid to do rock the boat and work on something meaningful in ther lives. They just drive the same truck every day, until they lose their job. In fact, even Adam Smith proposed the free market as a way to achieve equality among men. Even socialist anarchists like Oscar Wilde were most incensed by the degrading nature of the employer-employee relationship. You don't need this model for everyone. Just for those who are sick and tired of playing office politics and pretending to work 8 hour days becauss they finished in 2 hours and can't be seen doing anything productive for anyone else, since the company can sue them.
erdojo 9y ago
Talent and experience aren't the same thing, and they both affect compensation. Talent can produce a better result than experience, but experience is almost always more consistent. There's added value in consistency for companies. That's not discrimination (ugh), it's a business reality.
- Radle 9y ago
  Exactly this is why the client get's billed 20 times what Kyle earns. It's just a lack of experience, if Kyle would man up and accept her place it would all work out. BULLSHIT
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    >>if Kyle would man up and accept her place Kyle is a dude.
  - aaronbasssett 9y ago
    They bill out 20x what he earns because they're not just billing for his time. They're billing for the time of the sales person who chased the lead, the time of the team who read the brief and developed the proposal, the time of the people who travelled to the client to deliver the presentation, the time of the secretary who handled the callback and the time of all the people who did all the same things the half a dozen other times where they DIDN'T get the contract.
  - erdojo 9y ago
    He's claiming discrimination vs what his coworkers are being paid. What his agency bills his time at is a red herring that doesn't matter at all in his discrimination claim.
sheharyarn 9y ago
Loved the post. I've been through something similar.
carrot 9y ago
Just want to say, I appreciate this.
pnathan 9y ago
There's something wonderful to be gained by detaching from identities and considering only the work. Hard to do, but can be very empowering.
ars 9y ago
Was anyone else distracted by the lack of apostrophes? I guess semantically they aren't necessary since there is no missing information but for some reason I found it distracting anyway.
- beeforpork 9y ago
  Yes. I stopped reading after two paragraphs because of the hiccups it caused in my parser.
- geon 9y ago
  I didnt even notice.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- DamonHD 9y ago
  I found the swearing more distracting, but then I'm apparently old-fashioned... Rgds Damon
  - SquareWheel 9y ago
    Please don't sign your comments on Hacker News. It's against the site guidelines, and ultimately clutters the page. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - alexmorenodev 9y ago
      I honestly thought it was a joke about being old fashioned.
    - DamonHD 9y ago
      Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I like to sign to remind myself I'm replying to a fellow human, so NOT signing will make me feel uncomfortable! Maybe I should stop replying...
janwillemb 9y ago
The article is from 2013, the guy has gone to greener pastures since then, quite literally: he's "farming trees".[1] [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/kneath https://mobile.twitter.com/kneath
- galfarragem 9y ago
  Interesting read from his blog: http://warpspire.com/posts/next http://warpspire.com/posts/next
  - arximboldi 9y ago
    That's so touching. Thanks a lot for sharing.
  - jimbokun 9y ago
    "Like a hammer who wants everything to be a nail, we are a barrel of oil designing the world with petroleum-tinted glasses." Granted this is a mixed metaphor, but an excellent insight into 21st century civilization nonetheless. Captures a vague feeling I (and probably many others) had, but couldn't put my finger on.
  - dahart 9y ago
    "Psychology, emotion, and interpersonal relationships play a far greater role in shaping policy than any objective fact. Unlike many, I don’t see this as a problem or a bug. It’s just how large groups of people make decisions. We are not robots. We’re leaky bags of meat that have no inclination toward rationality." Pretty insightful thinking there for a programmer, if you ask me. As a group, we tend to focus on rational facts and ignore the emotional aspects all too often. I also quite enjoy reading Kyle's struggle with how to find happiness and fulfillment. I absolutely love writing software, but after 30 years of it, I'm also struggling to find happiness in it. It is starting to feel more like an addiction than a fulfilling pursuit of life that will help me grow.
    - janwillemb 9y ago
      > It is starting to feel more like an addiction than a fulfilling pursuit of life that will help me grow. Exactly how I felt it. Addiction-driven development. I found a different purpose in life a few years ago (religiously inspired). I started investing time in other fields and in people, for example homeless people. The big (and not entirely unforeseen) disadvantage was that I felt that my knowledge was gradually aging, because I didn't keep up so well as before. This turned out not to be a problem after all, you don't need to be in the front lines all the time.
redders6600 9y ago
... But we care about pixels. Particularly the few that make up apostrophes.
- orr721 9y ago
  Read the original: http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care
gnrlist 9y ago
Just like in sports, you get paid more for what you have done vs what you could do. Having a few really good pieces of work to show off is no guarantee that you'll consistently pump out good work, or that you haven't left clients high and dry before. Since a third party has no real way of gauging that except by your track record, they're taking more of a chance on someone with less of a track record. More risk means they need more reward, which means you get paid less. Most of us COULD run a Fortune 500 company as well as the average CEO but we won't get the chance, nor compensation, until we have the experience.
- nailer 9y ago
  I honestly do not think most of us could. I hand out with three groups of people: geeks, hacks and lawyers. All of them often easily think they could easily do any other job. This includes the lawyers and journalists thinking that making software is easy. Based on that, I think we're as deluded as they are.
  - ben_w 9y ago
    Agreed. I know that "fudiciary duty" is a thing, but not what it involves. There are laws about accounting standards, but I can't even say what standard accountants need to rech to know those standards. I only found put a year ago that, in the UK, the (director?) of a Limited company can become personally liable for company debts if they trade while insolvent. Import and export laws? Nope. Which parts of an employment contract are enforceable? Nope. Minimum standards for office temperature, cleanliness, health and safety? Nope. How much unpaid overtime you can make your employees do, and how that intersects with minimum wage rules. Nope. Copyright, trademark and patent laws I think I get, but I don't know them inside-out.
    - stdbrouw 9y ago
      But that's not what people mean when they say they could run a Fortune 500 company if given the chance. All of the things you list are things that are easily learned, the bigger question is whether in addition to that knowledge the CEOs of big companies have any particular character traits, unique skills or business insights or not.
dhruvkar 9y ago
I'm going to be downvoted for this. While privacy is important, and a meritocracy is, well, meritocratic, these systems weren't formed overnight, and aren't even necessarily accepted as 'right' in many parts of the world. Historically, social barriers (e.g. discrimination against short people) are changed through exposure, discussion and sometimes fighting. Writing a post like this is only part of the answer. Taking the opportunity to understand the bias and discussing it with those who hold opposing viewpoints is another part of the answer. Privacy is a right, don't use it as a crutch.
- bjourne 9y ago
  I don't understand what your point is. Is it that Kyle Neath should take a stronger role in the fight against (height/age/gender/race/....) discrimination? It is probably hard because if you are working full-time as a software dev, you don't have much time to also lead a social struggle.
  - dhruvkar 9y ago
    Sorry, 2am haze. My point is that instead of accepting privacy as the answer to the discrimination issue, use the opportunity to make the case that this needs to be talked about. The post did part of the 'talking', but the conclusion negated this. I read it as 'we shouldn't be discriminated against, therefore let's not give them anything to discriminate against'. That's not how social change is brought about.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
shubhamjain 9y ago
As an amateur programmer and a part-time freelancer, I didn't have a slightest clue about the value of my work. It was only 5-6 years back when I gladly did small gigs on Want-to-Hire forums for tens of dollars. One particular gig was about scrapping data from a car sales website which I completed for $30 (should have cost at least 10x). The client discussed about the possibility of converting the phone numbers, which were obfuscated as plain images, to plain text. Without ado, I fired up my editor to explore the problem. It proved to atrociously difficult as I didn't have any background in anything similar but with the help from my brother, I was able to make a scrappy algorithm that worked. I reported back my progress and asked for additional $25 for it but the client refused, saying that he hadn't given his final say. I was dejected but felt foolish more than anything else. Looking back, I can't help think how anyone would pain in giving something as meagre as $25 (at least, for someone in United States) for a someone's hard work. If there is one thing I can glean from my story and author's is that businesses, at least most of them, are ruthless. It doesn't matter who runs them, it's just an unspoken rule that you don't give what you don't owe. You don't shower sympathy or, do things that aren't in business' best interest (long term / short term). The only thing you can—and should—do is be ruthless yourself. Negotiate for more confidently. Move on if you're undervalued. Never think of owing anything to any entity.
- wtbob 9y ago
  Yeah, I'll agree as an American that $55 for code which can do primitive OCR is probably really, really cheap. Your client should have treated you better. > The only thing you can—and should—do is be ruthless yourself. Negotiate for more confidently. Move on if you're undervalued. Well, try not to think of it as being ruthless. Plenty of businesses do well by helping others do well, too. But, at the end of the day, you have bills to pay and a lifestyle to support: you have to preserve that.
- simonhamp 9y ago
  Whilst I've probably been in a similar situation at some point or another in my past (albeit in the UK), and can very much sympathise with your story, I can't possibly agree with your final premise. Ruthlessness is not what makes for a happy work life. You absolutely should call out the thankless and unappreciative! Perhaps they really are just poorly informed about how long things take or the knowledge that makes it possible (however unlikely)... that's still no excuse. And to "treat others as they treat you" is a slippery slope that can quickly get you a bad reputation. Don't be afraid to do things differently, you will be happier for it.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
libeclipse 9y ago
I've experienced this too, not the discrimination in work, but the realisation that on the internet no one cares about anything but your work. I've been a part of a lot of different communities. Hell, when I was a kid in a MW2 clan on the internet, no one there cared about anything but skill in the game. In programming and hacking communities, no one cared about anything but skill either. It's a brilliant place you know. On the internet, you can be whoever you want to be and it doesn't matter.
- zaphar 9y ago
  The flip side is that as soon as you become more than just pixels on a screen it can change in an instant. Just ask anyone who ever experienced being dox'd. As long as all you are is pixels on a screen it's great. As soon as you become more than pixels on a screen the story can change really fast. It turns out the pixels only influence people opinion of you when there is nothing else to base it on. I'm not so sure that's necessarily something to celebrate.
mxfh 9y ago
For the first time in human history, its possible to be represented (almost) solely through the merits of your work. Like anonymous works can't exist in the physical space? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anonymous_artists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anonymous_artists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_...
tajen 9y ago
Sometimes I want to take interns from minorities and teach them both technical skills and the network to get a job through the Internet. Them I remember taking them as interns is part of the discrimination; and they'll be better promoted in physical companies where they can invoke anti-discrimination laws, rather than being only promoted by their skills. Then remains those who are really discriminated against: Those who are neither protected by being good-looking nor by the laws, like the (short) author. Pixels don't care, but next time you read statistics about how white people are paid more than average, remember which side this guy falls on, now that he succeeded. The strange world of statistics.
dzamo_norton 9y ago
The author feels that his height counted against him, but did anyone actually say "sorry you're too short?". It would be strange client or employer who insisted on a tall developer while age I can accept is a factor for people out there, rightly or wrongly. I'm suggesting that it could be possible to project an inherent sensitivity about one's height onto a separate experience.
- ess3 9y ago
  I got the impression that using height was purely a rethorical move from the author referring to that when you're young you're shorter
- josecastillo 9y ago
  That may well be a factor in what's going on, but for whatever reason, there is evidence [1] of a height-based pay gap in hiring and compensation. We're seldom aware of our subconscious biases, but they still influence our actions all the time. [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.aspx
- Markoff 9y ago
  it's not about height, it's about age
nfriedly 9y ago
This reminds me of my early years - I started doing in web dev work in High School and was excited to be making more than minimum wage! I started freelancing about halfway through college and quickly learned to hide the fact that I was a student, and my age in general. I recall one of my early clients that had a very distinct negative change in how he treated me after he learned that I was still in college. I can't complain too much, though, most clients treated me well and I charged enough that I was able to graduate debt free.
kneath 9y ago
Author here. Hacker News has long ago blacklisted/blackholed my domain (I am often critical of YCombinator's investment strategies), but the original post can be found on my blog http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care — with apostrophes!
- ploggingdev 9y ago
  I don't know the full backstory of why your domain was blacklisted, but if it's only because of your criticism of YC, that sounds wrong and I'm sure the HN moderators will be happy to remove your domain from the blacklist. Also, what is the #caboose channel on freenode about? I tried joining to see what it's about, but it looks like it's invite only.
  - kneath 9y ago
    Caboose was an invite-only group of rubyists interested in rails early on. At the time I joined it was a group of decent humans who would answer your questions, share their work, and banter about the rails ecosystem. I haven't idled there in a long time, so I can't say I know much about it's current makeup.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  Great story and I shouldn't nitpick this, but it really drags down a story for me when it's stated matter of fact like (rather than as a "memory") and yet has an obviously flawed timeline. "Eight years ago", aka 2009, is "long" after Facebook became publicly accessible and Twitter had existed publicly for about the same duration. Are either the point of your story? No, but it detracts from the point when readers know this and it makes you seem less credible when you shouldn't be.
  - jakelazaroff 9y ago
    This was posted in 2013. Maybe a mod should edit the title?
    - 9y ago
dang 9y ago
Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5130559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5130559.
emilioolivares 9y ago
Pixels don't care, but businesses care a lot about who their vendors are. Specifically, business owners want to buy from companies that can provide more than a result. They need to mitigate business risk so they look for vendors that will: 1. Exist as long as their solution is being used 2. Provide adequate support 3. Are legally accountable for their products and services 4. Have the proper processes in place for things like billing and invoices Having raw talent is just part of the business puzzle. There are a lot of start-ups or freelancers that can "fake it until they make it" but it's because they really understand how a small business or corporation makes buying decisions.

287 points by jw2013 9y ago

Yes, yes, you're so genius that nobody could respect your genius at a young age. Crocodile tears from child prodigies don't hold much weight for me, I have to say, regardless of how much "pain" you went through.

tyingq 9y ago

Good for him. I had a similar experience. Had to slog it out at low wages long enough to have a real work history with recognizable clients. He seems a little more bitter about it than I was. Trust is part of the game, and people just naturally, and subconsciously look for signals that you're the real deal.

Baeocystin 9y ago
I think he would benefit from putting a little more thought in to why people might judge someone very young as being responsible enough/capable enough/etc. It is not just, or even mostly, prejudice.

0xcde4c3db 9y ago

Previously known as "on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet%2C_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet%2C_nobody_know...

dom0 9y ago
In the IoT age: On the internet, nobody knows you're a fridge.
- ansgri 9y ago
  Conversely: anybody knows what's in your fridge better than you do.

pasta 9y ago

This sounds similar to a post of a blind programmer. Those are good arguments for privacy. Sometimes you got something to hide. Not a crime but because you don't want to be discriminated. Sad that it has to be this way.

mistercow 9y ago
To me, this is the main argument for privacy. When I hear people say "I've got nothing to hide, so I've got nothing to fear", I immediately think "Well aren't you lucky?" Having nothing to hide is a privilege, but the weird thing about that mentality is that I think very few people actually have that privilege. How many people, for example, would not be negatively impacted if the text conversations around their last relationship breakup were made public? We all have vulnerabilities, and privacy is about choosing who we trust to know them. So anyone who believes that they have nothing to hide is either unaware of how dangerous the world is, or hasn't properly taken stock of what could be used against them, and how. Discrimination is one of the most common ways that your vulnerabilities can used against you, but it's not the only one.
- matt4077 9y ago
  I've thought about, and used, two possibly opposing, strategies to make life easier for others: (a) Insist on privacy especially when you have "nothing to hide". I once refused to send a photo with an application (which is still a thing with the really slow-to-adapt companies in my country). I'm square in the majority in any characteristic a photo may reveal, but I was hoping to give some cover to those who don't want to give a photo for whatever reason, and fear being judged just for that. (b): I'm rather careless with some information that others would be afraid to reveal, hoping to normalize it ever so slightly. There are still too many things that are really really common, but taboo to mention because nobody knows how common they are because it's taboo... Examples may be mental health issues, being bisexual/poly/etc. Also, if you are in high regard and can afford it, you can do everyone a favour by rejecting certain common but harmful practices: Are you no longer productive at 4pm because you didn't sleep well? Go home!
  - 9y ago

pitaj 9y ago

Great story. I came upon my current job in a similar fashion, and I love it. Can a mod change the title to read (2013) since this article is fairly old, though?

aj7 9y ago

That's great Kyle. I once worked for a German laser company where promotions to the highest positions were based mainly on physical height.

HenryBemis 9y ago
"German"... I wunder why!!
Kenji 9y ago
Bloody hell. What? Did that company do well? Is sounds like this promotion scheme is a fast way to bankruptcy.
akvadrako 9y ago
I assume that usually applies during stand-ups. It's only natural.
gspetr 9y ago
Was Dirk Nowitzki[0] the owner or at least a board member? [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk_Nowitzki

EGreg 9y ago

And this is why I think fulltime employment is the wrong way to go for many people today. In fact the whole "we are an institution and you are a peon" mentality needs to be disrupted. More companies should hire on a project basis and share the revenues. More companies should try holacracy and abolish a top down chain of command for everything. Then people can really will be compensated on their merit, ie their contributions. In our own company, I laid out how we do it https://qbix.com/blog https://qbix.com/blog ... would welcome your thoughts.

xamuel 9y ago
>compensated on their ... contributions Kiss goodbye to any kind of code hygiene. >abolish a top down chain of command You now have a squeaky wheel company. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
alexchamberlain 9y ago
To be honest, I don't like the Qbix Compensation Model. One reason to work for someone else is that they are taking the risk. Within reason, no matter what I do at work, I'll get paid the same at the end of the month. Yes, there is the risk the company could go out of business (a form of job security I guess), and yes, I would expect a fair annual review, but ultimately, I'm able to plan in the medium term for a consistent income.
- Asooka 9y ago
  What if we had stronger unemployment benefits and some form of UBI? I.e. if you take a risky job, the government insures some part of your pay (e.g. up to 2000$/mo), and if everything tanks you can still fall on a UBI and pay the bills and buy food.
- EGreg 9y ago
  Stability at the cost of autonomy breeds complacency, which is the opposite of OP's attitude. Presumably he lived with his parents. But he wants to be paid for his work commensurate with his contributions. Means tested welfare has the same problems as full time employment: people are so used to that paycheck that they are afraid to do rock the boat and work on something meaningful in ther lives. They just drive the same truck every day, until they lose their job. In fact, even Adam Smith proposed the free market as a way to achieve equality among men. Even socialist anarchists like Oscar Wilde were most incensed by the degrading nature of the employer-employee relationship. You don't need this model for everyone. Just for those who are sick and tired of playing office politics and pretending to work 8 hour days becauss they finished in 2 hours and can't be seen doing anything productive for anyone else, since the company can sue them.

erdojo 9y ago

Talent and experience aren't the same thing, and they both affect compensation. Talent can produce a better result than experience, but experience is almost always more consistent. There's added value in consistency for companies. That's not discrimination (ugh), it's a business reality.

Radle 9y ago
Exactly this is why the client get's billed 20 times what Kyle earns. It's just a lack of experience, if Kyle would man up and accept her place it would all work out. BULLSHIT
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  >>if Kyle would man up and accept her place Kyle is a dude.
- aaronbasssett 9y ago
  They bill out 20x what he earns because they're not just billing for his time. They're billing for the time of the sales person who chased the lead, the time of the team who read the brief and developed the proposal, the time of the people who travelled to the client to deliver the presentation, the time of the secretary who handled the callback and the time of all the people who did all the same things the half a dozen other times where they DIDN'T get the contract.
- erdojo 9y ago
  He's claiming discrimination vs what his coworkers are being paid. What his agency bills his time at is a red herring that doesn't matter at all in his discrimination claim.

sheharyarn 9y ago

Loved the post. I've been through something similar.

carrot 9y ago

Just want to say, I appreciate this.

pnathan 9y ago

There's something wonderful to be gained by detaching from identities and considering only the work. Hard to do, but can be very empowering.

ars 9y ago

Was anyone else distracted by the lack of apostrophes? I guess semantically they aren't necessary since there is no missing information but for some reason I found it distracting anyway.

beeforpork 9y ago
Yes. I stopped reading after two paragraphs because of the hiccups it caused in my parser.
geon 9y ago
I didnt even notice.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
DamonHD 9y ago
I found the swearing more distracting, but then I'm apparently old-fashioned... Rgds Damon
- SquareWheel 9y ago
  Please don't sign your comments on Hacker News. It's against the site guidelines, and ultimately clutters the page. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - alexmorenodev 9y ago
    I honestly thought it was a joke about being old fashioned.
  - DamonHD 9y ago
    Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I like to sign to remind myself I'm replying to a fellow human, so NOT signing will make me feel uncomfortable! Maybe I should stop replying...

janwillemb 9y ago

The article is from 2013, the guy has gone to greener pastures since then, quite literally: he's "farming trees".[1] [1] https://mobile.twitter.com/kneath https://mobile.twitter.com/kneath

galfarragem 9y ago
Interesting read from his blog: http://warpspire.com/posts/next http://warpspire.com/posts/next
- arximboldi 9y ago
  That's so touching. Thanks a lot for sharing.
- jimbokun 9y ago
  "Like a hammer who wants everything to be a nail, we are a barrel of oil designing the world with petroleum-tinted glasses." Granted this is a mixed metaphor, but an excellent insight into 21st century civilization nonetheless. Captures a vague feeling I (and probably many others) had, but couldn't put my finger on.
- dahart 9y ago
  "Psychology, emotion, and interpersonal relationships play a far greater role in shaping policy than any objective fact. Unlike many, I don’t see this as a problem or a bug. It’s just how large groups of people make decisions. We are not robots. We’re leaky bags of meat that have no inclination toward rationality." Pretty insightful thinking there for a programmer, if you ask me. As a group, we tend to focus on rational facts and ignore the emotional aspects all too often. I also quite enjoy reading Kyle's struggle with how to find happiness and fulfillment. I absolutely love writing software, but after 30 years of it, I'm also struggling to find happiness in it. It is starting to feel more like an addiction than a fulfilling pursuit of life that will help me grow.
  - janwillemb 9y ago
    > It is starting to feel more like an addiction than a fulfilling pursuit of life that will help me grow. Exactly how I felt it. Addiction-driven development. I found a different purpose in life a few years ago (religiously inspired). I started investing time in other fields and in people, for example homeless people. The big (and not entirely unforeseen) disadvantage was that I felt that my knowledge was gradually aging, because I didn't keep up so well as before. This turned out not to be a problem after all, you don't need to be in the front lines all the time.

redders6600 9y ago

... But we care about pixels. Particularly the few that make up apostrophes.

orr721 9y ago
Read the original: http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care

gnrlist 9y ago

Just like in sports, you get paid more for what you have done vs what you could do. Having a few really good pieces of work to show off is no guarantee that you'll consistently pump out good work, or that you haven't left clients high and dry before. Since a third party has no real way of gauging that except by your track record, they're taking more of a chance on someone with less of a track record. More risk means they need more reward, which means you get paid less. Most of us COULD run a Fortune 500 company as well as the average CEO but we won't get the chance, nor compensation, until we have the experience.

nailer 9y ago
I honestly do not think most of us could. I hand out with three groups of people: geeks, hacks and lawyers. All of them often easily think they could easily do any other job. This includes the lawyers and journalists thinking that making software is easy. Based on that, I think we're as deluded as they are.
- ben_w 9y ago
  Agreed. I know that "fudiciary duty" is a thing, but not what it involves. There are laws about accounting standards, but I can't even say what standard accountants need to rech to know those standards. I only found put a year ago that, in the UK, the (director?) of a Limited company can become personally liable for company debts if they trade while insolvent. Import and export laws? Nope. Which parts of an employment contract are enforceable? Nope. Minimum standards for office temperature, cleanliness, health and safety? Nope. How much unpaid overtime you can make your employees do, and how that intersects with minimum wage rules. Nope. Copyright, trademark and patent laws I think I get, but I don't know them inside-out.
  - stdbrouw 9y ago
    But that's not what people mean when they say they could run a Fortune 500 company if given the chance. All of the things you list are things that are easily learned, the bigger question is whether in addition to that knowledge the CEOs of big companies have any particular character traits, unique skills or business insights or not.

dhruvkar 9y ago

I'm going to be downvoted for this. While privacy is important, and a meritocracy is, well, meritocratic, these systems weren't formed overnight, and aren't even necessarily accepted as 'right' in many parts of the world. Historically, social barriers (e.g. discrimination against short people) are changed through exposure, discussion and sometimes fighting. Writing a post like this is only part of the answer. Taking the opportunity to understand the bias and discussing it with those who hold opposing viewpoints is another part of the answer. Privacy is a right, don't use it as a crutch.

bjourne 9y ago
I don't understand what your point is. Is it that Kyle Neath should take a stronger role in the fight against (height/age/gender/race/....) discrimination? It is probably hard because if you are working full-time as a software dev, you don't have much time to also lead a social struggle.
- dhruvkar 9y ago
  Sorry, 2am haze. My point is that instead of accepting privacy as the answer to the discrimination issue, use the opportunity to make the case that this needs to be talked about. The post did part of the 'talking', but the conclusion negated this. I read it as 'we shouldn't be discriminated against, therefore let's not give them anything to discriminate against'. That's not how social change is brought about.

deleted 9y ago

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shubhamjain 9y ago

As an amateur programmer and a part-time freelancer, I didn't have a slightest clue about the value of my work. It was only 5-6 years back when I gladly did small gigs on Want-to-Hire forums for tens of dollars. One particular gig was about scrapping data from a car sales website which I completed for $30 (should have cost at least 10x). The client discussed about the possibility of converting the phone numbers, which were obfuscated as plain images, to plain text. Without ado, I fired up my editor to explore the problem. It proved to atrociously difficult as I didn't have any background in anything similar but with the help from my brother, I was able to make a scrappy algorithm that worked. I reported back my progress and asked for additional $25 for it but the client refused, saying that he hadn't given his final say. I was dejected but felt foolish more than anything else. Looking back, I can't help think how anyone would pain in giving something as meagre as $25 (at least, for someone in United States) for a someone's hard work. If there is one thing I can glean from my story and author's is that businesses, at least most of them, are ruthless. It doesn't matter who runs them, it's just an unspoken rule that you don't give what you don't owe. You don't shower sympathy or, do things that aren't in business' best interest (long term / short term). The only thing you can—and should—do is be ruthless yourself. Negotiate for more confidently. Move on if you're undervalued. Never think of owing anything to any entity.

wtbob 9y ago
Yeah, I'll agree as an American that $55 for code which can do primitive OCR is probably really, really cheap. Your client should have treated you better. > The only thing you can—and should—do is be ruthless yourself. Negotiate for more confidently. Move on if you're undervalued. Well, try not to think of it as being ruthless. Plenty of businesses do well by helping others do well, too. But, at the end of the day, you have bills to pay and a lifestyle to support: you have to preserve that.
simonhamp 9y ago
Whilst I've probably been in a similar situation at some point or another in my past (albeit in the UK), and can very much sympathise with your story, I can't possibly agree with your final premise. Ruthlessness is not what makes for a happy work life. You absolutely should call out the thankless and unappreciative! Perhaps they really are just poorly informed about how long things take or the knowledge that makes it possible (however unlikely)... that's still no excuse. And to "treat others as they treat you" is a slippery slope that can quickly get you a bad reputation. Don't be afraid to do things differently, you will be happier for it.

deleted 9y ago

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libeclipse 9y ago

I've experienced this too, not the discrimination in work, but the realisation that on the internet no one cares about anything but your work. I've been a part of a lot of different communities. Hell, when I was a kid in a MW2 clan on the internet, no one there cared about anything but skill in the game. In programming and hacking communities, no one cared about anything but skill either. It's a brilliant place you know. On the internet, you can be whoever you want to be and it doesn't matter.

zaphar 9y ago
The flip side is that as soon as you become more than just pixels on a screen it can change in an instant. Just ask anyone who ever experienced being dox'd. As long as all you are is pixels on a screen it's great. As soon as you become more than pixels on a screen the story can change really fast. It turns out the pixels only influence people opinion of you when there is nothing else to base it on. I'm not so sure that's necessarily something to celebrate.

mxfh 9y ago

For the first time in human history, its possible to be represented (almost) solely through the merits of your work. Like anonymous works can't exist in the physical space? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anonymous_artists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anonymous_artists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anonymously_published_...

tajen 9y ago

Sometimes I want to take interns from minorities and teach them both technical skills and the network to get a job through the Internet. Them I remember taking them as interns is part of the discrimination; and they'll be better promoted in physical companies where they can invoke anti-discrimination laws, rather than being only promoted by their skills. Then remains those who are really discriminated against: Those who are neither protected by being good-looking nor by the laws, like the (short) author. Pixels don't care, but next time you read statistics about how white people are paid more than average, remember which side this guy falls on, now that he succeeded. The strange world of statistics.

dzamo_norton 9y ago

The author feels that his height counted against him, but did anyone actually say "sorry you're too short?". It would be strange client or employer who insisted on a tall developer while age I can accept is a factor for people out there, rightly or wrongly. I'm suggesting that it could be possible to project an inherent sensitivity about one's height onto a separate experience.

ess3 9y ago
I got the impression that using height was purely a rethorical move from the author referring to that when you're young you're shorter
josecastillo 9y ago
That may well be a factor in what's going on, but for whatever reason, there is evidence [1] of a height-based pay gap in hiring and compensation. We're seldom aware of our subconscious biases, but they still influence our actions all the time. [1] http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.aspx http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/standing.aspx
Markoff 9y ago
it's not about height, it's about age

nfriedly 9y ago

This reminds me of my early years - I started doing in web dev work in High School and was excited to be making more than minimum wage! I started freelancing about halfway through college and quickly learned to hide the fact that I was a student, and my age in general. I recall one of my early clients that had a very distinct negative change in how he treated me after he learned that I was still in college. I can't complain too much, though, most clients treated me well and I charged enough that I was able to graduate debt free.

kneath 9y ago

Author here. Hacker News has long ago blacklisted/blackholed my domain (I am often critical of YCombinator's investment strategies), but the original post can be found on my blog http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care http://warpspire.com/posts/pixels-dont-care — with apostrophes!

ploggingdev 9y ago
I don't know the full backstory of why your domain was blacklisted, but if it's only because of your criticism of YC, that sounds wrong and I'm sure the HN moderators will be happy to remove your domain from the blacklist. Also, what is the #caboose channel on freenode about? I tried joining to see what it's about, but it looks like it's invite only.
- kneath 9y ago
  Caboose was an invite-only group of rubyists interested in rails early on. At the time I joined it was a group of decent humans who would answer your questions, share their work, and banter about the rails ecosystem. I haven't idled there in a long time, so I can't say I know much about it's current makeup.
jsjohnst 9y ago
Great story and I shouldn't nitpick this, but it really drags down a story for me when it's stated matter of fact like (rather than as a "memory") and yet has an obviously flawed timeline. "Eight years ago", aka 2009, is "long" after Facebook became publicly accessible and Twitter had existed publicly for about the same duration. Are either the point of your story? No, but it detracts from the point when readers know this and it makes you seem less credible when you shouldn't be.
- jakelazaroff 9y ago
  This was posted in 2013. Maybe a mod should edit the title?
  - 9y ago

dang 9y ago

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5130559 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5130559.

emilioolivares 9y ago

Pixels don't care, but businesses care a lot about who their vendors are. Specifically, business owners want to buy from companies that can provide more than a result. They need to mitigate business risk so they look for vendors that will: 1. Exist as long as their solution is being used 2. Provide adequate support 3. Are legally accountable for their products and services 4. Have the proper processes in place for things like billing and invoices Having raw talent is just part of the business puzzle. There are a lot of start-ups or freelancers that can "fake it until they make it" but it's because they really understand how a small business or corporation makes buying decisions.