6 ms·

All You Zombies

104 points by douche 10y ago

tgb 10y ago
Still trying to figure out the connection to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_You_Zombies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_You_Zombies You'd need a time machine to have the skills they want?
- mirimir 10y ago
  Yes, loops through time would be necessary to have ten years experience with a language that's five years old. And FWIW: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Robert-A.-Heinlein-All-You-Zombies.pdf http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Robert-A.-Hei...
pavel_lishin 10y ago
For those unaware, "All You Zombies..." is a fantastic short story by Robert Heinlein about time travel that was adapted into the 2014 film Predestination (fairly well, too, considering the source material.)
- reboog711 10y ago
  Also a song by the Hooters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LE0KpcP05I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LE0KpcP05I
- eric_the_read 10y ago
  It'd be nice to see a decent Heinlein movie adaptation for a change. Sorry I missed it when it came out.
  - norea-armozel 10y ago
    Yep, the Spierig Brothers are awesome at these kinds of films. I loved their work with Daybreakers.
andrewclunn 10y ago
Watching some managers fail just feels like karma sometimes. I can't imagine the company in question will be around for too long.
- douche 10y ago
  > a firm that started out as a telco but morphed into a business service provider I was thinking this might be AT&T - I've run into a bunch of businesses that have outsourced their IT to AT&T's global services division. Although AT&T is still very much a telco.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
LeonM 10y ago
We've all been there, recruiters calling you because you are the perfect applicant because of your skill with framework XYZ (even though you've never worked with it, nor claimed you have experience with it). And also because of your experience in Java (even though you are a javascript dev). They have the perfect job 'opportunity' for you! As long as you have at least 15 years experience in React and Angular and SCRUM and agile you should be fine. Oh, and you have to lower your hourly rate so the recruiter can make $20+ per hour of of your work. Seriously, when does it stop?
- itburnslikeice 10y ago
  never
- beaconstudios 10y ago
  when someone disrupts recruiting enough to make all that wasted energy uncompetitive.
- ryandrake 10y ago
  I don't know, maybe I have been lucky, but I don't get that so much. I get very infrequent recruiter contact, but when they do contact me, they seem to have at least done a little homework. Usually they have the domain/technologies right, and they have made an effort to match skills with the role. My biggest complaint is that once in a while they get the job level way wrong. I've got nearly 20 years under my belt, and I still get approached for individual contributor "seventh engineer from the left" type roles. But that's not a huge deal, just politely decline. I also get a lot of "I see you are doing $ROLE at $COMPANY_1. How would you like to do the exact same $ROLE at $COMPANY_2?" which are not interesting to me but how are they supposed to know that? I've never been called or harassed by a recruiter, and I try to get back to every one, if only for politeness sake. No reason to burn bridges. If they got the match a little wrong, no big deal--they're not wizards and mind readers.
  - sleepychu 10y ago
    Do you have LinkedIn? I'm considering ditching it because I'm so sick of recruiter spam and that seems to be their main avenue of contact.
exelius 10y ago
HR at most companies is filled with people who are too terrible at anything else, so they get shoved into HR. This situation above (at a telecom turned business service provider) is a very common problem -- especially at companies with a large consumer-facing presence. Because these companies need to hire large volumes of low-skilled workers, they implement rigid HR policies and procedures to streamline the process. Those workers make up probably 95% of their hiring volume -- turnover is high and there are tons of positions available. These companies fall flat on their fucking face when they try to hire skilled workers. The same processes that make them efficient and streamlined at hiring call center reps make them fucking terrible at skilled labor hiring. They use low-skilled HR reps with zero domain knowledge to filter stuff, then HR always has to be involved in the process "because policy". End result is it takes 4 months to get a resume, interview and extend an offer to someone -- in which time, the best candidates already have started other jobs. Meanwhile, the engineering groups need to get things done. So when Accenture comes in and says "We can get you a whole team of 50 people in India. And they can start next week." it's hard to say no. And most of the full-time people working at the company are ex-consultants themselves (because that's the only way to actually work at a lot of these companies). Consultants are basically "shadow HR" at a lot of companies. They wouldn't be so prevalent if these companies were competent at hiring people with relevant skill.
- z3t4 10y ago
  The other side of the problem is the skill level needed to be a good developer.
  - exelius 10y ago
    Oh, I'm not even talking about problems identifying good developers -- even if they find them, HR is so slow and rigid in their process that things like salary negotiations take months, in which time even mediocre candidates have usually found something better. Basically, HR runs the hiring process at most of these companies, and from HR's perspective the engineering teams are like that annoying customer that keeps complaining because they are a "special flower" (HR detests special flowers). They don't even know what engineering does; just that they have 55 call center positions and 2 engineering positions they need to fill this month. Not every company is this way, but many big ones are. Specifically the ones where like 70% of the company is consultants.
tempodox 10y ago
> "We don't want to train someone," the interveiwer said That attitude is pervasive, yet seldom expressed so clearly.
- a3n 10y ago
  And yet, the someone will likely end up training them, if they would only make the hire.
anocendi 10y ago
I was waiting for the part where Teddy has to f* his/her past self.
ralfd 10y ago
> How would you compare three sets of numbers to see if any number was common to all three? Ahm ... I would probably just naively brute force loop over the sets, because modern CPUs are insanely fast and I am filthy lazy. And if there is a performance problem I super lazily look up the filtering methods of the language-library. What would the correct answer here be? Make a hash or something for constant lookup cost?
- TN1ck 10y ago
  If it's already a set in the language, use intersect. If the numbers are in a array or sth. similiar, make a set and use intersect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(set_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(set_theory)
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    We here at Company X believe that math is not useful unless it is bespoke, hand-made, artisanal. Please pretend that set theory does not yet exist in this universe, and describe to us the smell of the algorithm you might write to solve this problem.
  - dTal 10y ago
    You just described the "what", not the "how". The implied context is algorithmic. It'd be like answering a question about sorting lists with "use sort()" - true enough in practical terms, but smart-arsey and deliberately avoiding the meat of the question.
- scriptkiddy 10y ago
  Assuming whatever language I'm using has an honest implementation of a set data structure and that these sets of numbers are true sets, and thus, contain no duplicate values; I would perform an intersection. With Python(my bread and butter), I would simply use the built in intersection set class method: https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html?highlight=set#set.intersection https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html?highlight=se...
- wyager 10y ago

104 points by douche 10y ago

tgb 10y ago

Still trying to figure out the connection to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_You_Zombies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_You_Zombies You'd need a time machine to have the skills they want?

mirimir 10y ago
Yes, loops through time would be necessary to have ten years experience with a language that's five years old. And FWIW: http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Robert-A.-Heinlein-All-You-Zombies.pdf http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Robert-A.-Hei...

pavel_lishin 10y ago

For those unaware, "All You Zombies..." is a fantastic short story by Robert Heinlein about time travel that was adapted into the 2014 film Predestination (fairly well, too, considering the source material.)

reboog711 10y ago
Also a song by the Hooters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LE0KpcP05I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LE0KpcP05I
eric_the_read 10y ago
It'd be nice to see a decent Heinlein movie adaptation for a change. Sorry I missed it when it came out.
- norea-armozel 10y ago
  Yep, the Spierig Brothers are awesome at these kinds of films. I loved their work with Daybreakers.

andrewclunn 10y ago

Watching some managers fail just feels like karma sometimes. I can't imagine the company in question will be around for too long.

douche 10y ago
> a firm that started out as a telco but morphed into a business service provider I was thinking this might be AT&T - I've run into a bunch of businesses that have outsourced their IT to AT&T's global services division. Although AT&T is still very much a telco.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

LeonM 10y ago

We've all been there, recruiters calling you because you are the perfect applicant because of your skill with framework XYZ (even though you've never worked with it, nor claimed you have experience with it). And also because of your experience in Java (even though you are a javascript dev). They have the perfect job 'opportunity' for you! As long as you have at least 15 years experience in React and Angular and SCRUM and agile you should be fine. Oh, and you have to lower your hourly rate so the recruiter can make $20+ per hour of of your work. Seriously, when does it stop?

itburnslikeice 10y ago
never
beaconstudios 10y ago
when someone disrupts recruiting enough to make all that wasted energy uncompetitive.
ryandrake 10y ago
I don't know, maybe I have been lucky, but I don't get that so much. I get very infrequent recruiter contact, but when they do contact me, they seem to have at least done a little homework. Usually they have the domain/technologies right, and they have made an effort to match skills with the role. My biggest complaint is that once in a while they get the job level way wrong. I've got nearly 20 years under my belt, and I still get approached for individual contributor "seventh engineer from the left" type roles. But that's not a huge deal, just politely decline. I also get a lot of "I see you are doing $ROLE at $COMPANY_1. How would you like to do the exact same $ROLE at $COMPANY_2?" which are not interesting to me but how are they supposed to know that? I've never been called or harassed by a recruiter, and I try to get back to every one, if only for politeness sake. No reason to burn bridges. If they got the match a little wrong, no big deal--they're not wizards and mind readers.
- sleepychu 10y ago
  Do you have LinkedIn? I'm considering ditching it because I'm so sick of recruiter spam and that seems to be their main avenue of contact.

exelius 10y ago

HR at most companies is filled with people who are too terrible at anything else, so they get shoved into HR. This situation above (at a telecom turned business service provider) is a very common problem -- especially at companies with a large consumer-facing presence. Because these companies need to hire large volumes of low-skilled workers, they implement rigid HR policies and procedures to streamline the process. Those workers make up probably 95% of their hiring volume -- turnover is high and there are tons of positions available. These companies fall flat on their fucking face when they try to hire skilled workers. The same processes that make them efficient and streamlined at hiring call center reps make them fucking terrible at skilled labor hiring. They use low-skilled HR reps with zero domain knowledge to filter stuff, then HR always has to be involved in the process "because policy". End result is it takes 4 months to get a resume, interview and extend an offer to someone -- in which time, the best candidates already have started other jobs. Meanwhile, the engineering groups need to get things done. So when Accenture comes in and says "We can get you a whole team of 50 people in India. And they can start next week." it's hard to say no. And most of the full-time people working at the company are ex-consultants themselves (because that's the only way to actually work at a lot of these companies). Consultants are basically "shadow HR" at a lot of companies. They wouldn't be so prevalent if these companies were competent at hiring people with relevant skill.

z3t4 10y ago
The other side of the problem is the skill level needed to be a good developer.
- exelius 10y ago
  Oh, I'm not even talking about problems identifying good developers -- even if they find them, HR is so slow and rigid in their process that things like salary negotiations take months, in which time even mediocre candidates have usually found something better. Basically, HR runs the hiring process at most of these companies, and from HR's perspective the engineering teams are like that annoying customer that keeps complaining because they are a "special flower" (HR detests special flowers). They don't even know what engineering does; just that they have 55 call center positions and 2 engineering positions they need to fill this month. Not every company is this way, but many big ones are. Specifically the ones where like 70% of the company is consultants.

tempodox 10y ago

> "We don't want to train someone," the interveiwer said That attitude is pervasive, yet seldom expressed so clearly.

a3n 10y ago
And yet, the someone will likely end up training them, if they would only make the hire.

anocendi 10y ago

I was waiting for the part where Teddy has to f* his/her past self.

ralfd 10y ago

> How would you compare three sets of numbers to see if any number was common to all three? Ahm ... I would probably just naively brute force loop over the sets, because modern CPUs are insanely fast and I am filthy lazy. And if there is a performance problem I super lazily look up the filtering methods of the language-library. What would the correct answer here be? Make a hash or something for constant lookup cost?

TN1ck 10y ago
If it's already a set in the language, use intersect. If the numbers are in a array or sth. similiar, make a set and use intersect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(set_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(set_theory)
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  We here at Company X believe that math is not useful unless it is bespoke, hand-made, artisanal. Please pretend that set theory does not yet exist in this universe, and describe to us the smell of the algorithm you might write to solve this problem.
- dTal 10y ago
  You just described the "what", not the "how". The implied context is algorithmic. It'd be like answering a question about sorting lists with "use sort()" - true enough in practical terms, but smart-arsey and deliberately avoiding the meat of the question.
scriptkiddy 10y ago
Assuming whatever language I'm using has an honest implementation of a set data structure and that these sets of numbers are true sets, and thus, contain no duplicate values; I would perform an intersection. With Python(my bread and butter), I would simply use the built in intersection set class method: https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html?highlight=set#set.intersection https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html?highlight=se...
wyager 10y ago