6 ms·

The only thing about this which surprises me is how Erdogan seemed to really want Turkey to become a member of the EU, and yet has been actively doing everythin

by TillE 10y ago

The only thing about this which surprises me is how Erdogan seemed to really want Turkey to become a member of the EU, and yet has been actively doing everything he can to make that impossible. Then again, he tends to say and do a lot of odd things, so I guess the simple answer is to not assume any kind of competence or rational thinking from political leaders.

usrusr 10y ago
Did he, or did he really just want to seem wanting to, to those who liked the idea? I could well imagine the EU question to be one of those topics where one group is fiercely convinced of their answer whereas the other is mostly close to undecided. In a situation like that the opportunistic course of action would be pretty clear.
gkya 10y ago
The thing is today that's what goes with the base of AKP. Political leaders are never stupid, we sometimes believe so because they're doing things weird to us, while we are not who they care about at all. On the other hand, nobody really cares about Europe here nowadays, as in more than half a century all they've done is exploit and humiliate us. I, as a secular irreligious turkish citizen, don't want my government to allow that sort of thing no matter what, whichever party should the ruling one be.
- NicoJuicy 10y ago
  Actually, I think your dead wrong. Watch what happens when you defriend Europe as a partner to your economy. We share a lot ( not the only country though), but if you attack us, we don't need to do anything... People just stop being interested in your country and your economy slips away. No outside Western investments and tourism anymore. I don't know if that's a good thing, but you shouldn't be happy with what Erdogan is doing... Wasn't the last line in a speech of Erdogan: Come visit Turkey. It means that he's scared for losing the benefit of being our friend. Now, I hope you like tourism being partially replaced with 'friendly' Russians :) + Exploiting Turkey? Got real proof? I know for sure Turkey had good economic growth because of the EU, not despite of the EU. Then again, we will know for sure in the coming 5 years of I'm right or wrong. Already Turkey is beginning to slip in negative economic growt and that's not our fault. Erdogan is alienating European civilians
  - hrehhf 10y ago
    I think a lot of Turkish citizens, and the Turkish government, are frustrated with the long time it has taken and now they have become ambivalent, feeling like they will never be allowed to join the EU. Its very easy to each side to blame the other, but from the Turkish perspective, there needs to be a concrete timeline for the process. Indeed for several years there are clear problems in Turkey that would block them joining EU, but those problems came up only after Turks became frustrated with the slow accession. As for economic concerns, EU has many trade deals and many EU members would probably be quite happy to have some kind of trade deal without giving Turkey membership, and with how things are today, maybe Turks will just accept that.
    - NicoJuicy 10y ago
      Since what happened to Greece, I think we have to be carefull who we allow. I do agree that it is taking long, Turkey tries to force themselves in the EU. I don't think that's how a future member should act. The EU had been long in the making and a country that can't join in a span of 3 years of isn't bad considered the consequences it has on both sides
      - hrehhf 10y ago
        > ...can't join in a span of 3 years... Turkey first applied for membership to the EU about 30 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Un...
        NicoJuicy 10y ago
        I do agree, i'm suprised they started 30 years ago. Since Turkey isn't part of Europe. https://www.reference.com/geography/turkey-part-europe-ad085d9b40bb92dd https://www.reference.com/geography/turkey-part-europe-ad085...
        hrehhf 10y ago
jrez22 10y ago
Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check on Islamist trying to dismantle democracy. Eu is stupid. Every modern Turk warned them and no one listened. No the EU will reap what its sown.
- aanm1988 10y ago
  > Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check How did the EU do that?
  - sampo 10y ago
    > How did the EU do that? “Since 1999, civilian control of the military has been strengthened. The constitutional and legal framework has been amended to clarify the position of the armed forces versus the civilian authorities,” the European Union said in its 2004 Progress Report on Turkey, which cited various developments with regard to civil-military ties. “A number of changes have been introduced over the last year to strengthen civilian control of the military with a view to aligning it with practice in EU member states.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil%E2%80%93military_relations_during_the_Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil%E2%80%93military_relatio... It is kind of funny that EU being so afraid of the military occasionally taking control of the civil government, EU paved way for the much more sinister threat of a transition to dictatorship. Very shortsighted. Europeans like to blame America for meddling with foreign countries without any understanding of the consequences, but here EU did exactly the same.
- Lev1a 10y ago
  Turkey is only part of the EU in Erdogans wet dreams.
VLM 10y ago
Their creativity doesn't imply incompetence or irrationality. For example NATO/EU bombs the heck out of zillions of countries so a counterstrategy of "we are almost members of your own alliance" is a brilliant shield. The other interesting strategy is the EU is indecisive about if the purpose of the EU should be to help the EU people or if its merely a cloak to hide German rule. Often an issue will be polarized along that axis. Naturally some commentary will align with "the purpose of the EU is non-military takeover of Europe by Germany" and some commentary will align with "serving all European people" and this is going to look really odd. The only way to avoid that is to self censor certain topics, unless of course your actual purpose is to stir stuff up to distract NATO/EU from bombing.
- ajross 10y ago
  > For example NATO/EU bombs the heck out of zillions of countries so a counterstrategy of "we are almost members of your own alliance" is a brilliant shield. Turkey has been part of NATO for sixty five years. That's not why.
ocschwar 10y ago
Mussolini may have sincerely wanted to be a run of the mill leftist. Head of state is the kind of job that draws narcissists, and when they feel slighted, bad things happen. Checks and balances are important, yo.

by TillE 10y ago

usrusr 10y ago

Did he, or did he really just want to seem wanting to, to those who liked the idea? I could well imagine the EU question to be one of those topics where one group is fiercely convinced of their answer whereas the other is mostly close to undecided. In a situation like that the opportunistic course of action would be pretty clear.

gkya 10y ago

The thing is today that's what goes with the base of AKP. Political leaders are never stupid, we sometimes believe so because they're doing things weird to us, while we are not who they care about at all. On the other hand, nobody really cares about Europe here nowadays, as in more than half a century all they've done is exploit and humiliate us. I, as a secular irreligious turkish citizen, don't want my government to allow that sort of thing no matter what, whichever party should the ruling one be.

NicoJuicy 10y ago
Actually, I think your dead wrong. Watch what happens when you defriend Europe as a partner to your economy. We share a lot ( not the only country though), but if you attack us, we don't need to do anything... People just stop being interested in your country and your economy slips away. No outside Western investments and tourism anymore. I don't know if that's a good thing, but you shouldn't be happy with what Erdogan is doing... Wasn't the last line in a speech of Erdogan: Come visit Turkey. It means that he's scared for losing the benefit of being our friend. Now, I hope you like tourism being partially replaced with 'friendly' Russians :) + Exploiting Turkey? Got real proof? I know for sure Turkey had good economic growth because of the EU, not despite of the EU. Then again, we will know for sure in the coming 5 years of I'm right or wrong. Already Turkey is beginning to slip in negative economic growt and that's not our fault. Erdogan is alienating European civilians
- hrehhf 10y ago
  I think a lot of Turkish citizens, and the Turkish government, are frustrated with the long time it has taken and now they have become ambivalent, feeling like they will never be allowed to join the EU. Its very easy to each side to blame the other, but from the Turkish perspective, there needs to be a concrete timeline for the process. Indeed for several years there are clear problems in Turkey that would block them joining EU, but those problems came up only after Turks became frustrated with the slow accession. As for economic concerns, EU has many trade deals and many EU members would probably be quite happy to have some kind of trade deal without giving Turkey membership, and with how things are today, maybe Turks will just accept that.
  - NicoJuicy 10y ago
    Since what happened to Greece, I think we have to be carefull who we allow. I do agree that it is taking long, Turkey tries to force themselves in the EU. I don't think that's how a future member should act. The EU had been long in the making and a country that can't join in a span of 3 years of isn't bad considered the consequences it has on both sides
    - hrehhf 10y ago
      > ...can't join in a span of 3 years... Turkey first applied for membership to the EU about 30 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Un...
      - NicoJuicy 10y ago
        I do agree, i'm suprised they started 30 years ago. Since Turkey isn't part of Europe. https://www.reference.com/geography/turkey-part-europe-ad085d9b40bb92dd https://www.reference.com/geography/turkey-part-europe-ad085...
        hrehhf 10y ago

jrez22 10y ago

Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check on Islamist trying to dismantle democracy. Eu is stupid. Every modern Turk warned them and no one listened. No the EU will reap what its sown.

aanm1988 10y ago
> Erdogan used EU to get rid of the military check How did the EU do that?
- sampo 10y ago
  > How did the EU do that? “Since 1999, civilian control of the military has been strengthened. The constitutional and legal framework has been amended to clarify the position of the armed forces versus the civilian authorities,” the European Union said in its 2004 Progress Report on Turkey, which cited various developments with regard to civil-military ties. “A number of changes have been introduced over the last year to strengthen civilian control of the military with a view to aligning it with practice in EU member states.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil%E2%80%93military_relations_during_the_Recep_Tayyip_Erdo%C4%9Fan_government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil%E2%80%93military_relatio... It is kind of funny that EU being so afraid of the military occasionally taking control of the civil government, EU paved way for the much more sinister threat of a transition to dictatorship. Very shortsighted. Europeans like to blame America for meddling with foreign countries without any understanding of the consequences, but here EU did exactly the same.
Lev1a 10y ago
Turkey is only part of the EU in Erdogans wet dreams.

VLM 10y ago

Their creativity doesn't imply incompetence or irrationality. For example NATO/EU bombs the heck out of zillions of countries so a counterstrategy of "we are almost members of your own alliance" is a brilliant shield. The other interesting strategy is the EU is indecisive about if the purpose of the EU should be to help the EU people or if its merely a cloak to hide German rule. Often an issue will be polarized along that axis. Naturally some commentary will align with "the purpose of the EU is non-military takeover of Europe by Germany" and some commentary will align with "serving all European people" and this is going to look really odd. The only way to avoid that is to self censor certain topics, unless of course your actual purpose is to stir stuff up to distract NATO/EU from bombing.

ajross 10y ago
> For example NATO/EU bombs the heck out of zillions of countries so a counterstrategy of "we are almost members of your own alliance" is a brilliant shield. Turkey has been part of NATO for sixty five years. That's not why.

ocschwar 10y ago

Mussolini may have sincerely wanted to be a run of the mill leftist. Head of state is the kind of job that draws narcissists, and when they feel slighted, bad things happen. Checks and balances are important, yo.