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I completely agree with the content of your message, just wish you had used a word less derogatory than 'dorks'

by MarkMc 10y ago

smokeyj 10y ago
I don't think it's derogatory enough. There's always these same rehashed arguments against electron - and it's always because of the same reason. The developer thinks he's a special snowflake and knows something that everyone else doesn't. He knows the "right way" and everyone else is dumb for not realizing it. FTA: It turns out modern operating systems already have nice, fast UI libraries. So use them you clod! FTA: Also all you web devs: Go learn C or Rust or something. I just want to know who the hell keeps upvoting this neckbeard bullshit.
- 4D1 10y ago
  One problem, you cant optimize at all with electron, you are stuck with shoving a complete web browser solution into your program to make a GUI. You are stuck with a massive amount of dependencies (html/css parser, javascript VM...) to various massive projects for what, easy cross platform support? Sure cross platform GUI's have been a problem, but any developer can agree that dependency to this level within professional code is a great way to cause a massive amount of headache from required library changes, bugs and memory leaks that you have NO control over due to it not being your code, required security updates that require code refactoring for no fault of your own, etc. People keep bringing this up because it is a bad solution to a large problem. Maybe the reason its being rehashed so much is because there is truth to what is being said. I would try finding a graphics library such as opengl, and build a UI in the spirit of something like: https://github.com/ocornut/imgui https://github.com/ocornut/imgui https://github.com/vurtun/nuklear https://github.com/vurtun/nuklear
  - smokeyj 10y ago
    Your solution to memory leaks is using a lower-level language? I should probably stop reading there.. How do you make SSL connections? How do you parse JSON api's? How do you play audio, integrate with platform features (menu bars, dock dropping etc)? How do you create P2P WebRTC connections that capture camera and mic inputs? Let me guess, you have libraries for that. People keep bringing this up because they're insecure about their role as programmers in a world where creating useful functionality is becoming easier and more accessable. People keep bringing this up because they don't comprehend what business requirements actually are and the cost of rolling your own technology and battle testing it. I promise you. We're not all stupid. That's all I'm asking of people to consider before they start solving all the world's problems.
    - 4D1 10y ago
      > Your solution to memory leaks is using a lower-level language? I should probably stop reading there.. Lower level than sandboxing into a js VM? yes. Writing everything in assembly, or in an unmanaged language? no. Adding unnecessary complexity to a program increases possibilities of bugs, which in this case, will be outside of your control. And this is a perfect example of unnecessary complexity. > How do you make SSL connections? How do you parse JSON api's? How do you play audio, integrate with platform features (menu bars, dock dropping etc)? How do you create P2P WebRTC connections that capture camera and mic inputs? Let me guess, you have libraries for that. Simple libraries that intend on doing the job and getting out of your way, yes. I wasn't aware you needed to embed a web browser to parse a json string, or to establish an SSL connection? There is a large difference between what a library is, and what electron aims to be... There will always be system apis that you will have to interface with, these are apples and oranges. > People keep bringing this up because they're insecure about their role as programmers in a world where creating useful functionality is becoming easier and more accessable. People keep bringing this up because they don't comprehend what business requirements actually are and the cost of rolling your own technology and battle testing it. Thank you for reminding me what the phrase "argumentum ad-hominem" means. > I promise you. We're not all stupid. That's all I'm asking of people to consider before they start solving all the world's problems. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't believe anyone who finds electron appealing is stupid. I am sure these people are more than capable programmers, and electron is a very appealing way for a web-based product to be able to quickly produce and distribute a desktop client. Most just desire for people to understand that most large-scale projects will dig their own graves in the promises of cross platform support and a fast production cycle, which has been a growing trend in software development for quite a few years now.
      - smokeyj 10y ago
        The basic premise for this entire blog post is that people who use electron don't know that lower level technologies exist. FTA: It turns out modern operating systems already have nice, fast UI libraries. So use them you clod! FTA: Also all you web devs: Go learn C or Rust or something. So yes, this is in-fact an ad-hominem attack. There's a certain type of person who rehashes this old stupid argument. A few years ago they'd berate you for using a LAMP stack to set up your clients wordpress blog. A couple years ago they'd give you shit for using Node on the server and not being a "real" developer. Point being, if the author of this blog post resonates with you - I can guarantee you with a high degree of certainty that I can fit your world view in a tiny little box.
- platinumrad 10y ago
  Having trouble figuring out what "dork", "hipster", and "neckbeard" have in common other than the latter two terms both having become completely meaningless due to abuse and overuse.
- MarkMc 10y ago
  You don't actually need to use derogatory words at all to win the argument. In fact, your more likely to change a person's mind if you avoid personal attacks like 'dork' and 'neckbeard bullshit'.
  - smokeyj 10y ago
    I know you're right. Being level headed is something I need to work on.
Dylan16807 10y ago
I'm having a hard time thinking of a word that's less derogatory. What do you have in mind?
- MarkMc 10y ago
  In this context, how about 'programmer'?
  - Dylan16807 10y ago
    That leads to a very strange sentence since 'programmer' is already used. More importantly 'programmer' doesn't work well as "thing you don't want to be". Instead you've left that category of word entirely. "Dork" is about as minimally-derogatory as you can get without losing the meaning entirely. And it doesn't feed any kind of discrimination.
    - MarkMc 10y ago
      Ahh I understand your point now. For the record I meant 'less derogatory or not at all derogatory'.

I completely agree with the content of your message, just wish you had used a word less derogatory than 'dorks'

by MarkMc 10y ago

I completely agree with the content of your message, just wish you had used a word less derogatory than 'dorks'

I don't think it's derogatory enough. There's always these same rehashed arguments against electron - and it's always because of the same reason. The developer thinks he's a special snowflake and knows something that everyone else doesn't. He knows the "right way" and everyone else is dumb for not realizing it. FTA: It turns out modern operating systems already have nice, fast UI libraries. So use them you clod! FTA: Also all you web devs: Go learn C or Rust or something. I just want to know who the hell keeps upvoting this neckbeard bullshit.

4D1 10y ago
One problem, you cant optimize at all with electron, you are stuck with shoving a complete web browser solution into your program to make a GUI. You are stuck with a massive amount of dependencies (html/css parser, javascript VM...) to various massive projects for what, easy cross platform support? Sure cross platform GUI's have been a problem, but any developer can agree that dependency to this level within professional code is a great way to cause a massive amount of headache from required library changes, bugs and memory leaks that you have NO control over due to it not being your code, required security updates that require code refactoring for no fault of your own, etc. People keep bringing this up because it is a bad solution to a large problem. Maybe the reason its being rehashed so much is because there is truth to what is being said. I would try finding a graphics library such as opengl, and build a UI in the spirit of something like: https://github.com/ocornut/imgui https://github.com/ocornut/imgui https://github.com/vurtun/nuklear https://github.com/vurtun/nuklear
- smokeyj 10y ago
  Your solution to memory leaks is using a lower-level language? I should probably stop reading there.. How do you make SSL connections? How do you parse JSON api's? How do you play audio, integrate with platform features (menu bars, dock dropping etc)? How do you create P2P WebRTC connections that capture camera and mic inputs? Let me guess, you have libraries for that. People keep bringing this up because they're insecure about their role as programmers in a world where creating useful functionality is becoming easier and more accessable. People keep bringing this up because they don't comprehend what business requirements actually are and the cost of rolling your own technology and battle testing it. I promise you. We're not all stupid. That's all I'm asking of people to consider before they start solving all the world's problems.
  - 4D1 10y ago
    > Your solution to memory leaks is using a lower-level language? I should probably stop reading there.. Lower level than sandboxing into a js VM? yes. Writing everything in assembly, or in an unmanaged language? no. Adding unnecessary complexity to a program increases possibilities of bugs, which in this case, will be outside of your control. And this is a perfect example of unnecessary complexity. > How do you make SSL connections? How do you parse JSON api's? How do you play audio, integrate with platform features (menu bars, dock dropping etc)? How do you create P2P WebRTC connections that capture camera and mic inputs? Let me guess, you have libraries for that. Simple libraries that intend on doing the job and getting out of your way, yes. I wasn't aware you needed to embed a web browser to parse a json string, or to establish an SSL connection? There is a large difference between what a library is, and what electron aims to be... There will always be system apis that you will have to interface with, these are apples and oranges. > People keep bringing this up because they're insecure about their role as programmers in a world where creating useful functionality is becoming easier and more accessable. People keep bringing this up because they don't comprehend what business requirements actually are and the cost of rolling your own technology and battle testing it. Thank you for reminding me what the phrase "argumentum ad-hominem" means. > I promise you. We're not all stupid. That's all I'm asking of people to consider before they start solving all the world's problems. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't believe anyone who finds electron appealing is stupid. I am sure these people are more than capable programmers, and electron is a very appealing way for a web-based product to be able to quickly produce and distribute a desktop client. Most just desire for people to understand that most large-scale projects will dig their own graves in the promises of cross platform support and a fast production cycle, which has been a growing trend in software development for quite a few years now.
    - smokeyj 10y ago
      The basic premise for this entire blog post is that people who use electron don't know that lower level technologies exist. FTA: It turns out modern operating systems already have nice, fast UI libraries. So use them you clod! FTA: Also all you web devs: Go learn C or Rust or something. So yes, this is in-fact an ad-hominem attack. There's a certain type of person who rehashes this old stupid argument. A few years ago they'd berate you for using a LAMP stack to set up your clients wordpress blog. A couple years ago they'd give you shit for using Node on the server and not being a "real" developer. Point being, if the author of this blog post resonates with you - I can guarantee you with a high degree of certainty that I can fit your world view in a tiny little box.
platinumrad 10y ago
Having trouble figuring out what "dork", "hipster", and "neckbeard" have in common other than the latter two terms both having become completely meaningless due to abuse and overuse.
MarkMc 10y ago
You don't actually need to use derogatory words at all to win the argument. In fact, your more likely to change a person's mind if you avoid personal attacks like 'dork' and 'neckbeard bullshit'.
- smokeyj 10y ago
  I know you're right. Being level headed is something I need to work on.

Dylan16807 10y ago

I'm having a hard time thinking of a word that's less derogatory. What do you have in mind?

MarkMc 10y ago
In this context, how about 'programmer'?
- Dylan16807 10y ago
  That leads to a very strange sentence since 'programmer' is already used. More importantly 'programmer' doesn't work well as "thing you don't want to be". Instead you've left that category of word entirely. "Dork" is about as minimally-derogatory as you can get without losing the meaning entirely. And it doesn't feed any kind of discrimination.
  - MarkMc 10y ago
    Ahh I understand your point now. For the record I meant 'less derogatory or not at all derogatory'.