5 ms·

https://www.ted.com/talks/stefano_mancuso_the_roots_of_plant_intelligence https://www.ted.com/talks/stefano_mancuso_the_roots_of_plant...

fredley 10y ago
Plants react to things that can harm them. Pain, however, is something that it requires neurons to experience.
- stagbeetle 10y ago
  A rash rejection of dialog. Plants are very lowly sentient through structures that are the plant-counterparts to animalian neurons. They communicate with other plants and they sense what can be described as "pain." But, I don't think arguing on the sentience of an unprotected kingdom will further this discussion. The discussion on animal welfare seems to be an emotional one alone. As long as our mirror neurons aren't firing in response to the perceived pain animals feel, all is millhouse. This is why, I believe very few care about plant welfare. They have no mouths with which to scream, so we believe (or make ourselves believe) that they aren't in pain. That they are too dumb to feel pain (this parallels sinisterly with the cruelty of psychological medicine in the 20th century). Not to mention how silly it is to care about plant welfare... or is it? There have been little studies done on how the constant slaughter of plants affects the secondary factors (maturation speeds, yield, etc. -- as apposed to the primary: deforestation, etc.). However, I don't think there ever will be such advances in this field. Perhaps because they have no way of polluting this discussion with emotions, unlike their animal counterpart.
  - occultist_throw 10y ago
    Ive always found in the quieter parts of Silicon Valley and areas, there does exist a merge between the technological and something else. I've seen this something else be called luck, magic, parapsychology.. Many names. But I've also found that it is indeed whispered and talked of behind the scenes. I've learned these arts as well, to hear the ebb and flow of what goes on around me. Many times, I can feel the data going on the wire, and the emotion it carries. Standing in our data center's networking room, I can feel thousands of voices, like a cacophony all unawares that they too are projecting emotions. Some of us can hear. But in learning how to hear, I also learned how to listen to other things we wouldn't normally consider sentient. Plants. I found I've been able to hear them, and their talk. It's not words per se, but more of word-pictures. And the more I do so, I come to the understanding that Chomsky was indeed correct, but also wrong: emotion is the underlying language. How do I prove this? I don't. I can't, at this time. These techniques were taught to me, along with my innate abilities. I doubt even an fMRI would be able to pick up on these, until long after my brain processed them. But what then? I've also been attempting to find a way to connect whatever that emotion energy I'm feeling is. If it's not matter, it must be energy.. or something else. I'm not ready to say there's a something else yet... So it must be a type of energy that we can measure, no? I know I've pissed off enough other pagans and occultists, but my primary goal is to bridge these two disparate (scientific vs esoteric) into a unified theory. Or barring that, a way to "view" this energy. Because once we can sense it, we can manipulate. But alas, I figure I'll be downvoted or worse yet, ignored. I certainly don't hold a publicly acceptable view for sure.
    - stagbeetle 10y ago
      From my viewpoint, the practitioners have all but secluded themselves for the time being, away from all public scrutiny. Very seldom do I hear of them mentioned, and of those very few are intelligent. And I believe this is what could hold you back, atleast in public acceptance (if you're even aiming for this -- and not just discovery among the "initiated"). I'm sorry I can't offer you anymore words, getting a taste of the esoteric after all of this time away has left me in shock. So, may you succeed in your journey and if there's anyway I may assist, I would oblige.
      - occultist_throw 10y ago
        > From my viewpoint, the practitioners have all but secluded themselves for the time being, away from all public scrutiny. Very seldom do I hear of them mentioned, and of those very few are intelligent. They still are out there, but most have gone the anti-technology, anti-science.. almost hippie like. To most of them, it's all flowers and happy auras, and vibes. That sort of stuff. In my opinion, they are a dead end. It's all circle this, good vibes that. And absolutely no proof, no scientific work on understanding the underlying nature. Nothing. > And I believe this is what could hold you back, atleast in public acceptance (if you're even aiming for this -- and not just discovery among the "initiated"). Nahh, I obviously don't talk about this at work. It can easily be seen as "Religion". No sense in alienating people. If they are intent on discussing it, I invite them to a coffee shop, a bookstore/cafe, a quieter bar and talk. Then again, I do have to be careful in whom I talk with. Obviously, these ideas are exactly mainstream. And, many of them can have very deleterious paths (cults, single-mindedness, magus-itis). Last thing I want to do is get someone who is weaker-willed into something they cannot handle. Primarily, I don't want to be responsible for someone else's failures. > I'm sorry I can't offer you anymore words, getting a taste of the esoteric after all of this time away has left me in shock. > So, may you succeed in your journey and if there's anyway I may assist, I would oblige. Thank you much for the kind words. There are a few ways to help, and they be primarily information. I'm blessed with an ample amount of money and goods. It's mind I need.. Thought. Ideas. Creativity. Primarily, this "woo woo" area, Ill call it magic. The problem is that the only way to sense it is to be trained in it. And how do you know if someone is trained? Its a chicken and egg problem. The way out of this, is to develop some sort of sensor that can "sense" whatever this is. Once a sensor is made, then ideally it would provide a way to prove/disprove these claims. Not only that, but we in the engineer class (yes, systems engineer as well) would also be able to experiment in making devices to manipulate this energy. With appropriate feedback from the sensors, we could start mastering this other realm. I've a few ideas how to do this. 1. Auras. Some people see it naturally. Some can be trained to see it. What is it? Is it EM? What frequencies? Is it magnetic domain, or electric domain, or both? Could a camera detect this? What if you could adjust the response frequencies in the CCD to different areas? 2. Remote sensing. This would require time and lots of money at an fMRI. Would entail in self-selecting people whom claim to have these gifts. Fraught with false positives, given fMRI tech. Open ended investigation on peoples' brains. Not likely. 3. Emotion. Is it possible to sense emotion? I believe yes. We all have felt it, someone staring at us. Someone angry, and we don't know why. Dread that makes a room thick. What's going on, and why? Is this measurable? If no devices, can we use people to detect (and then measure with equivalent of lie detector electronics, to bypass verbal means)? But these are diffuse ideas, and none are terribly good. But given my computer science, engineering, IoT sensor net, and biological backgrounds, It's all I have. If you have other ideas, I'd be very much interested in knowing or collaborating. I don't even need much of citation. I'd rather enable the occult for the masses, by means of science. If you'd like to get ahold of me, you can email me clow_reed@protonmail.com Sincerely,
  - fredley 10y ago
    I disagree with you quite strongly on this (and I don't believe there really is enough of a dialog to 'rashly reject'), however, if plants do indeed 'feel pain', so what? Humans can live off fallen-fruit and seeds, but the acreage required would prohibit human populations above hunter-gatherer densities, and in almost all areas of the planet this method of eating would produce severe malnutrition.
    - stagbeetle 10y ago
      This is what I'm arguing for: "so what if they feel pain?"

fredley 10y ago

Plants react to things that can harm them. Pain, however, is something that it requires neurons to experience.

stagbeetle 10y ago
A rash rejection of dialog. Plants are very lowly sentient through structures that are the plant-counterparts to animalian neurons. They communicate with other plants and they sense what can be described as "pain." But, I don't think arguing on the sentience of an unprotected kingdom will further this discussion. The discussion on animal welfare seems to be an emotional one alone. As long as our mirror neurons aren't firing in response to the perceived pain animals feel, all is millhouse. This is why, I believe very few care about plant welfare. They have no mouths with which to scream, so we believe (or make ourselves believe) that they aren't in pain. That they are too dumb to feel pain (this parallels sinisterly with the cruelty of psychological medicine in the 20th century). Not to mention how silly it is to care about plant welfare... or is it? There have been little studies done on how the constant slaughter of plants affects the secondary factors (maturation speeds, yield, etc. -- as apposed to the primary: deforestation, etc.). However, I don't think there ever will be such advances in this field. Perhaps because they have no way of polluting this discussion with emotions, unlike their animal counterpart.
- occultist_throw 10y ago
  Ive always found in the quieter parts of Silicon Valley and areas, there does exist a merge between the technological and something else. I've seen this something else be called luck, magic, parapsychology.. Many names. But I've also found that it is indeed whispered and talked of behind the scenes. I've learned these arts as well, to hear the ebb and flow of what goes on around me. Many times, I can feel the data going on the wire, and the emotion it carries. Standing in our data center's networking room, I can feel thousands of voices, like a cacophony all unawares that they too are projecting emotions. Some of us can hear. But in learning how to hear, I also learned how to listen to other things we wouldn't normally consider sentient. Plants. I found I've been able to hear them, and their talk. It's not words per se, but more of word-pictures. And the more I do so, I come to the understanding that Chomsky was indeed correct, but also wrong: emotion is the underlying language. How do I prove this? I don't. I can't, at this time. These techniques were taught to me, along with my innate abilities. I doubt even an fMRI would be able to pick up on these, until long after my brain processed them. But what then? I've also been attempting to find a way to connect whatever that emotion energy I'm feeling is. If it's not matter, it must be energy.. or something else. I'm not ready to say there's a something else yet... So it must be a type of energy that we can measure, no? I know I've pissed off enough other pagans and occultists, but my primary goal is to bridge these two disparate (scientific vs esoteric) into a unified theory. Or barring that, a way to "view" this energy. Because once we can sense it, we can manipulate. But alas, I figure I'll be downvoted or worse yet, ignored. I certainly don't hold a publicly acceptable view for sure.
  - stagbeetle 10y ago
    From my viewpoint, the practitioners have all but secluded themselves for the time being, away from all public scrutiny. Very seldom do I hear of them mentioned, and of those very few are intelligent. And I believe this is what could hold you back, atleast in public acceptance (if you're even aiming for this -- and not just discovery among the "initiated"). I'm sorry I can't offer you anymore words, getting a taste of the esoteric after all of this time away has left me in shock. So, may you succeed in your journey and if there's anyway I may assist, I would oblige.
    - occultist_throw 10y ago
      > From my viewpoint, the practitioners have all but secluded themselves for the time being, away from all public scrutiny. Very seldom do I hear of them mentioned, and of those very few are intelligent. They still are out there, but most have gone the anti-technology, anti-science.. almost hippie like. To most of them, it's all flowers and happy auras, and vibes. That sort of stuff. In my opinion, they are a dead end. It's all circle this, good vibes that. And absolutely no proof, no scientific work on understanding the underlying nature. Nothing. > And I believe this is what could hold you back, atleast in public acceptance (if you're even aiming for this -- and not just discovery among the "initiated"). Nahh, I obviously don't talk about this at work. It can easily be seen as "Religion". No sense in alienating people. If they are intent on discussing it, I invite them to a coffee shop, a bookstore/cafe, a quieter bar and talk. Then again, I do have to be careful in whom I talk with. Obviously, these ideas are exactly mainstream. And, many of them can have very deleterious paths (cults, single-mindedness, magus-itis). Last thing I want to do is get someone who is weaker-willed into something they cannot handle. Primarily, I don't want to be responsible for someone else's failures. > I'm sorry I can't offer you anymore words, getting a taste of the esoteric after all of this time away has left me in shock. > So, may you succeed in your journey and if there's anyway I may assist, I would oblige. Thank you much for the kind words. There are a few ways to help, and they be primarily information. I'm blessed with an ample amount of money and goods. It's mind I need.. Thought. Ideas. Creativity. Primarily, this "woo woo" area, Ill call it magic. The problem is that the only way to sense it is to be trained in it. And how do you know if someone is trained? Its a chicken and egg problem. The way out of this, is to develop some sort of sensor that can "sense" whatever this is. Once a sensor is made, then ideally it would provide a way to prove/disprove these claims. Not only that, but we in the engineer class (yes, systems engineer as well) would also be able to experiment in making devices to manipulate this energy. With appropriate feedback from the sensors, we could start mastering this other realm. I've a few ideas how to do this. 1. Auras. Some people see it naturally. Some can be trained to see it. What is it? Is it EM? What frequencies? Is it magnetic domain, or electric domain, or both? Could a camera detect this? What if you could adjust the response frequencies in the CCD to different areas? 2. Remote sensing. This would require time and lots of money at an fMRI. Would entail in self-selecting people whom claim to have these gifts. Fraught with false positives, given fMRI tech. Open ended investigation on peoples' brains. Not likely. 3. Emotion. Is it possible to sense emotion? I believe yes. We all have felt it, someone staring at us. Someone angry, and we don't know why. Dread that makes a room thick. What's going on, and why? Is this measurable? If no devices, can we use people to detect (and then measure with equivalent of lie detector electronics, to bypass verbal means)? But these are diffuse ideas, and none are terribly good. But given my computer science, engineering, IoT sensor net, and biological backgrounds, It's all I have. If you have other ideas, I'd be very much interested in knowing or collaborating. I don't even need much of citation. I'd rather enable the occult for the masses, by means of science. If you'd like to get ahold of me, you can email me clow_reed@protonmail.com Sincerely,
- fredley 10y ago
  I disagree with you quite strongly on this (and I don't believe there really is enough of a dialog to 'rashly reject'), however, if plants do indeed 'feel pain', so what? Humans can live off fallen-fruit and seeds, but the acreage required would prohibit human populations above hunter-gatherer densities, and in almost all areas of the planet this method of eating would produce severe malnutrition.
  - stagbeetle 10y ago
    This is what I'm arguing for: "so what if they feel pain?"