6 ms·

Being from Italy, let me point out a few things: Frist of all: unfair competition can mean, for instance, a mega-multinational subsiding its riders costs to wi

by _joe 9y ago

Being from Italy, let me point out a few things: Frist of all: unfair competition can mean, for instance, a mega-multinational subsiding its riders costs to wipe out competition. That is dumping, a practice that is illegal in most advanced economies, and that Uber has been known to practice. If you don't have a taxi license, Italian law restricts the ways you can offer transportation. If you step outside of those boundaries, you are creating an unfair competition to taxi drivers that have e.g. to pay for the license or non-taxi services that operate within the boundaries of the law. Also: Uber was probably aware of the situation, to the point that some MPs tried to sneak in a "save Uber" amendment to an otherwise unrelated law, causing protests through the country from taxi drivers. I see people commenting that have clearly no information or any idea of how Italian economy works, and just go around throwing approximative judgements based on hearsay and prejudice. So let me state it out for you: Italian economy is surely burdened by anti-competitive practices and too many absurd regulations, but blocking a US multinational to repeatedly break the law and finance its services by price fixing is not an instance of that. And finally: in Italy it's impossible for a company to own taxi licences, so they are all privately-owned by the taxi driver. So Uber is, if you remove the price jacking, practically a way to siphon money from individual drivers to a large company.

jwilk 9y ago
s/damping/dumping/?
- _joe 9y ago
  heh, yes, just wrote this too early in the morning. Editing, thanks!
mk89 9y ago
It's a bit sad that things need to end up this way. Eventually things will change. However, things could have been handled differently, let's say with a proposal to these new companies to offer rides and adapt with the taxi-system in the country. Meaning: - taxi drivers need to have the highest priority and be sponsored as such (most of them paid for their license, and they MUST exist by law, because it's an essential service) - all drivers need to pass some screenings and keep it up-to-date (police, etc.) - all drivers need to pay taxes (because what they are doing right now is simply black-work) - security on Uber needs really to improve if you want to offer a public service, because as it is now, people can impersonate drivers (there are stories about this)
- Normal_gaussian 9y ago
  Things could have been handled differently you are right. But let us be clear - it is Uber that should have handled it differently.
- zuzun 9y ago
  This is how it's done in Germany. German law has the concept of "rental car with driver". This sounds super fancy but it's essentially a light version of a taxi. You call one, it arrives 5 minutes later, you pay something like €7 for a ride, all good. Drivers need a concession, don't have to follow taxi rules, but also don't get benefits like being allowed to wait for passengers in public places.
  - mk89 9y ago
    And how do you handle taxes? Isn't this "black" money?
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      Only if the driver doesn't pay the required MwSt (sales) and income tax surely?
    - zuzun 9y ago
      I don't know, that's the job of the tax authorities. They use company cars, they always drive back to their office, it's probably easy to check their books and see if their spendings on fuel match the declared rides.
    - mantas 9y ago
      I'm not sure how exactly it's done in Germany, but in Lithuania "black cars" main difference from "taxi" is "black car" have to agree on price before the ride while "taxi" works out the price after the ride. Uber is currently enjoying third way there thanks to political support (which may or may not be related to Uber IT operations located in town). But overall it (and it's local competitors) are gravitating towards taxi side of things. Taxi license is dirt cheap though. The only issue is yearly (vs bi-yearly) car inspection and more expensive insurance.
register 9y ago
Just to add a little bit more context. In Italy there were already Uber like services before Uber came: they are called "Radio Taxi". These services are mostly based on traditional call centers but , at least in the last two years in Milan and Rome, you can order and pay a ride also with a mobile app. And guess what? These are not breaking the Italian law and can operate without any trouble.
- orf 9y ago
  Is your comment saying this is because they are Italian, whereas Uber is not? If so that comparison isn't apt. Those apps would summon licensed drivers and the payments would be set by the driver based on the meter or the pre-arranged price. Like a card machine.
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    It's not all the point that those apps operate inside the Italian law and Uber don't? It seems to me, that if Uber operated inside the parameters of the law they would not be so profitable. That is really the point.
    - samsonradu 9y ago
      Well they are not profitable anyway are they?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - disordinary 9y ago
    He's saying that they operate like Taxis and therefore aren't breaking the law.
  - samsonradu 9y ago
    Uber is breaking the anti-dumping laws there. Fixing price to be cheaper than local taxis and burning money. That's unfair.
- 9y ago
ThomPete 9y ago
This is completely missing the point though. There shouldn't be any taxi licenses anymore and any modern country should get rid of this monopolizing practice. The Taxi licenses were important when the technology was not there today most of the reasons why a taxi license is requires isn't necessary. Furthermore uber drivers are freelancers they are the ones who need to pay their taxes by italian law. Italy like many other countries speculate in giving the kind of tax benefits that companies like uber is using. They do so to get jobs which can then be taxed fairly simple through income tax. Ubers model destroy this relationship and politicians who want to score political points have decided to outlaw uber. There is nothing in what you say which couldn't have been fixed with a better legislation. Context Denmark went through same exercise recently. Same claims about it being illegal was made. There are plenty of things to critique about uber, your critique really should be a critique about how your own politicians didn't manage to modernize in proper time. Furthermore with automated cars coming this whole argument you are trying to establish is moot. Edit: Instead of just down voting me because you disagree try and at least have the courtesy to forumalte an argument against what I am saying that way we all could learn something. I am more than happy in being corrected and correct something if I am wrong, down voting me doesn't help
- RobertoG 9y ago
  "There shouldnt be any taxi licenses anymore and any modern country should get rid of this monopolizing practice." Last time I checked that kind of thing whas decided by the citizens of the modern country using its modern democratic institutions. "Furthermore with automated cars coming this whole argument you are trying to establish is moot." Actually, I think it makes even more sense. Italian society will decide how they want to deal with automatic cars, in the same way they are deciding how to deal with Uber.
  - nawitus 9y ago
    "Last time I checked that kind of thing whas decided by the citizens of the modern country using its modern democratic institutions." It's possibly to advocate for a position and also believe in democracy. In fact, advocacy is part of the democratic process. "Actually, I think it makes even more sense. Italian society will decide how they want to deal with automatic cars, in the same way they are deciding how to deal with Uber." Yes, so far they have decided incorrectly.
Heliosmaster 9y ago
One thing: technically you don't pay for licenses, they are given for free from the municipality. They have a fixed number, so if you want to get into the system you have to get a license from someone else, hence the payment.
- sneak 9y ago
  The government made artificial scarcity and now there is a market where you have to pay to get a license. Technically you do pay for licenses, just not the government.
  - Heliosmaster 9y ago
    But only because the government allows it. Licenses could be made non-transferable...
  - walterstucco 9y ago
    government made them scarce because every time it tried to raise the number of licenses, taxi drivers basically have put up a riot . they are mob criminals, there is no other world to describe their lobby.
- Arkaad 9y ago
  Same issue in France. How is that even allowed? It's almost similar to ticket scalping.
thevalermor 9y ago
I think the situation about taxi services in Italy is absolutely peculiar. Facts: - Licenses are granted by the government and in theory they could not be sold. There are some loopholes in the legislation that make this possible. No government has never tried to fix this. In fact, a license in a big city like Rome is normally sold at around 200k Euros. - By acquiring a licence, a driver can easily make in big cities between 3-4k euros net (I know people who own taxi licenses). Average salary in Italy is around 1700 Euros/month. - Various time (2006, 2012) in the last years governments have tried to increase the number of licences and reform the market. The results was riots in all big cities, traffic paralized for weeks. - 20000 licenses represents a lot of votes. At time of election, license-holders and their families represent a large amount of votes. In cities like Rome (6k licenses), they can change the results of an election. All this to say that at the moment, this represent an un-reformable matter and I see no way a country like Italy can be open up to any type of modernization brought by technology. Uber is trying to work around the laws for their own benefit. But as an Italian (living abroad) I would be very happy to see how city transportation would change with the advent of new players. Now it is true the judge is only applying the laws. But the matter here is rather if the negotiations between taxi drivers and government of last month should have produced some results like a reasonable reform of the market where I personally see there is room for more then one winner, including users. Notice that Airbnb, who has also entered the market of house rentals, has found so far much less difficulties: no lobbies to fight against, real-estate generally benefitting from this type of business.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  "20000 licenses represents a lot of votes" A lot but surely a minority of votes yet. If this is a so big problem for the users of those services they could vote to somebody that change the system. That's how it works, isn’t?
  - walterstucco 9y ago
    but they are violent. 500 hundreds of them are like having a small army of 10.000 soldiers. Most of the more active and noisy are also fascist and act the same way the mob does. I'm from Rome but also lived for a long time in Milan, and I've seen with my eyes taxi drivers crash the uber app presentation and start firing tear bombs in the crowd (there were kids it was a tech fest in a city park) or read about the physical aggressions towards uber drivers (including women, three taxi drivers one night blocked and threatened a woman driving for uber and destroyed her car). Recently there's been a taxi driver's strike and those that were against the strike said they disagreed but were not going to work as well because of the threats they received. this is the real situation: mob and fascists together. uber model. sucks, gig economy sucks, but Italian taxi drivers suck a lot more.
bwb 9y ago
I once bought a sandwich in Italy, it required 3 lines... one to buy a token for the sandwich, the next line to use that token to order the sandwich, and the 3rd line to pick up the sandwich. Italy is not a place for innovation or efficiency. I am not a huge Uber fan, but some of the points here neglect to mention how broken the country of Italy is.
- RodericDay 9y ago
  I've had the exact same experience at La Taqueria in San Francisco.
- endisukaj 9y ago
  > I am not a huge Uber fan, but some of the points here neglect to mention how broken the country of Italy is. You deduced that from your extensive experience in buying a sandwich?

by _joe 9y ago

jwilk 9y ago

s/damping/dumping/?

_joe 9y ago
heh, yes, just wrote this too early in the morning. Editing, thanks!

mk89 9y ago

It's a bit sad that things need to end up this way. Eventually things will change. However, things could have been handled differently, let's say with a proposal to these new companies to offer rides and adapt with the taxi-system in the country. Meaning: - taxi drivers need to have the highest priority and be sponsored as such (most of them paid for their license, and they MUST exist by law, because it's an essential service) - all drivers need to pass some screenings and keep it up-to-date (police, etc.) - all drivers need to pay taxes (because what they are doing right now is simply black-work) - security on Uber needs really to improve if you want to offer a public service, because as it is now, people can impersonate drivers (there are stories about this)

Normal_gaussian 9y ago
Things could have been handled differently you are right. But let us be clear - it is Uber that should have handled it differently.
zuzun 9y ago
This is how it's done in Germany. German law has the concept of "rental car with driver". This sounds super fancy but it's essentially a light version of a taxi. You call one, it arrives 5 minutes later, you pay something like €7 for a ride, all good. Drivers need a concession, don't have to follow taxi rules, but also don't get benefits like being allowed to wait for passengers in public places.
- mk89 9y ago
  And how do you handle taxes? Isn't this "black" money?
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    Only if the driver doesn't pay the required MwSt (sales) and income tax surely?
  - zuzun 9y ago
    I don't know, that's the job of the tax authorities. They use company cars, they always drive back to their office, it's probably easy to check their books and see if their spendings on fuel match the declared rides.
  - mantas 9y ago
    I'm not sure how exactly it's done in Germany, but in Lithuania "black cars" main difference from "taxi" is "black car" have to agree on price before the ride while "taxi" works out the price after the ride. Uber is currently enjoying third way there thanks to political support (which may or may not be related to Uber IT operations located in town). But overall it (and it's local competitors) are gravitating towards taxi side of things. Taxi license is dirt cheap though. The only issue is yearly (vs bi-yearly) car inspection and more expensive insurance.

Just to add a little bit more context. In Italy there were already Uber like services before Uber came: they are called "Radio Taxi". These services are mostly based on traditional call centers but , at least in the last two years in Milan and Rome, you can order and pay a ride also with a mobile app. And guess what? These are not breaking the Italian law and can operate without any trouble.

orf 9y ago
Is your comment saying this is because they are Italian, whereas Uber is not? If so that comparison isn't apt. Those apps would summon licensed drivers and the payments would be set by the driver based on the meter or the pre-arranged price. Like a card machine.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  It's not all the point that those apps operate inside the Italian law and Uber don't? It seems to me, that if Uber operated inside the parameters of the law they would not be so profitable. That is really the point.
  - samsonradu 9y ago
    Well they are not profitable anyway are they?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- disordinary 9y ago
  He's saying that they operate like Taxis and therefore aren't breaking the law.
- samsonradu 9y ago
  Uber is breaking the anti-dumping laws there. Fixing price to be cheaper than local taxis and burning money. That's unfair.
9y ago

ThomPete 9y ago

This is completely missing the point though. There shouldn't be any taxi licenses anymore and any modern country should get rid of this monopolizing practice. The Taxi licenses were important when the technology was not there today most of the reasons why a taxi license is requires isn't necessary. Furthermore uber drivers are freelancers they are the ones who need to pay their taxes by italian law. Italy like many other countries speculate in giving the kind of tax benefits that companies like uber is using. They do so to get jobs which can then be taxed fairly simple through income tax. Ubers model destroy this relationship and politicians who want to score political points have decided to outlaw uber. There is nothing in what you say which couldn't have been fixed with a better legislation. Context Denmark went through same exercise recently. Same claims about it being illegal was made. There are plenty of things to critique about uber, your critique really should be a critique about how your own politicians didn't manage to modernize in proper time. Furthermore with automated cars coming this whole argument you are trying to establish is moot. Edit: Instead of just down voting me because you disagree try and at least have the courtesy to forumalte an argument against what I am saying that way we all could learn something. I am more than happy in being corrected and correct something if I am wrong, down voting me doesn't help

RobertoG 9y ago
"There shouldnt be any taxi licenses anymore and any modern country should get rid of this monopolizing practice." Last time I checked that kind of thing whas decided by the citizens of the modern country using its modern democratic institutions. "Furthermore with automated cars coming this whole argument you are trying to establish is moot." Actually, I think it makes even more sense. Italian society will decide how they want to deal with automatic cars, in the same way they are deciding how to deal with Uber.
- nawitus 9y ago
  "Last time I checked that kind of thing whas decided by the citizens of the modern country using its modern democratic institutions." It's possibly to advocate for a position and also believe in democracy. In fact, advocacy is part of the democratic process. "Actually, I think it makes even more sense. Italian society will decide how they want to deal with automatic cars, in the same way they are deciding how to deal with Uber." Yes, so far they have decided incorrectly.

Heliosmaster 9y ago

One thing: technically you don't pay for licenses, they are given for free from the municipality. They have a fixed number, so if you want to get into the system you have to get a license from someone else, hence the payment.

sneak 9y ago
The government made artificial scarcity and now there is a market where you have to pay to get a license. Technically you do pay for licenses, just not the government.
- Heliosmaster 9y ago
  But only because the government allows it. Licenses could be made non-transferable...
- walterstucco 9y ago
  government made them scarce because every time it tried to raise the number of licenses, taxi drivers basically have put up a riot . they are mob criminals, there is no other world to describe their lobby.
Arkaad 9y ago
Same issue in France. How is that even allowed? It's almost similar to ticket scalping.

thevalermor 9y ago

I think the situation about taxi services in Italy is absolutely peculiar. Facts: - Licenses are granted by the government and in theory they could not be sold. There are some loopholes in the legislation that make this possible. No government has never tried to fix this. In fact, a license in a big city like Rome is normally sold at around 200k Euros. - By acquiring a licence, a driver can easily make in big cities between 3-4k euros net (I know people who own taxi licenses). Average salary in Italy is around 1700 Euros/month. - Various time (2006, 2012) in the last years governments have tried to increase the number of licences and reform the market. The results was riots in all big cities, traffic paralized for weeks. - 20000 licenses represents a lot of votes. At time of election, license-holders and their families represent a large amount of votes. In cities like Rome (6k licenses), they can change the results of an election. All this to say that at the moment, this represent an un-reformable matter and I see no way a country like Italy can be open up to any type of modernization brought by technology. Uber is trying to work around the laws for their own benefit. But as an Italian (living abroad) I would be very happy to see how city transportation would change with the advent of new players. Now it is true the judge is only applying the laws. But the matter here is rather if the negotiations between taxi drivers and government of last month should have produced some results like a reasonable reform of the market where I personally see there is room for more then one winner, including users. Notice that Airbnb, who has also entered the market of house rentals, has found so far much less difficulties: no lobbies to fight against, real-estate generally benefitting from this type of business.

RobertoG 9y ago
"20000 licenses represents a lot of votes" A lot but surely a minority of votes yet. If this is a so big problem for the users of those services they could vote to somebody that change the system. That's how it works, isn’t?
- walterstucco 9y ago
  but they are violent. 500 hundreds of them are like having a small army of 10.000 soldiers. Most of the more active and noisy are also fascist and act the same way the mob does. I'm from Rome but also lived for a long time in Milan, and I've seen with my eyes taxi drivers crash the uber app presentation and start firing tear bombs in the crowd (there were kids it was a tech fest in a city park) or read about the physical aggressions towards uber drivers (including women, three taxi drivers one night blocked and threatened a woman driving for uber and destroyed her car). Recently there's been a taxi driver's strike and those that were against the strike said they disagreed but were not going to work as well because of the threats they received. this is the real situation: mob and fascists together. uber model. sucks, gig economy sucks, but Italian taxi drivers suck a lot more.

bwb 9y ago

I once bought a sandwich in Italy, it required 3 lines... one to buy a token for the sandwich, the next line to use that token to order the sandwich, and the 3rd line to pick up the sandwich. Italy is not a place for innovation or efficiency. I am not a huge Uber fan, but some of the points here neglect to mention how broken the country of Italy is.

RodericDay 9y ago
I've had the exact same experience at La Taqueria in San Francisco.
endisukaj 9y ago
> I am not a huge Uber fan, but some of the points here neglect to mention how broken the country of Italy is. You deduced that from your extensive experience in buying a sandwich?