4 ms·

It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of

It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others.

DanBC 10y ago
Russia uses online trolling as a tool. It's widely documented. This use of trolling leaves Russia open to accusations even when they're not involved. For a well documented case: http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-tool-case-latvia-0 http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-...
- paradite 10y ago
  Widely documented by "The NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence", the most obvious enemy of Russia? Human rights violations in the U.S. are also well documented by China: http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-report-on-terrible-u-s-human-rights-record/ http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-r...
  - doktrin 10y ago
    The US does legitimately have an imperfect human rights track record, and most Americans who follow the news would agree (while at the same time being aware of China's own hypocrisy in this matter) Likewise, Russia has a well documented history of sponsoring online propaganda campaigns, and most people who aren't delusional or paid shills would agree. Two negative things about two different countries can in fact both be based in truth. Weird.
    - zigzigzag 10y ago
      paradite is saying it's not well documented. It's poorly documented by people highly incentivised to lie. But hey, if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice.
      - doktrin 10y ago
        > poorly documented Uh huh https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails-55900 https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-... https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.html https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.... https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice. Not true, but it would definitely take more than that hand-wavy uncertainty yarn you're trying to spin
        seppin 10y ago
        I honestly think HN is the target of some of these trolls as well.
        mistermann 10y ago
        A significant percentage of younger (as well as non-younger for that matter) people have practically no exposure to mainstream media, so naturally one should expect propaganda (from the various players) will be brought to online forums of all kinds.
        seppin 9y ago
        I feel HN has been specifically targeted as a source of above-average discourse, therefore it must be comprised.
        zigzigzag 10y ago
        Both the NY Times and the Guardian seem to hate Russia and all things Russian. I constantly read things in those publications that are ludicrously biased or simply wrong. They don't count as credible sources to me anymore. And as was already pointed out, you stated that "Russia sponsors" but even the first article states that the alleged project is the work of one guy who apparently has money to burn - not the government.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      It should be obvious that the USA is not a singular political whole. So why do we say "the Russians" and "the Chinese" as though they each form a political whole. I mean, we know the CIA gets up to some pretty nefarious shenanigans, quite possibly without the express approval of The Administration. It just seems like a lot of pots sitting around talking about how black the kettles are. Sure, some kettles are blacker than some pots.
- rev 10y ago
  Well documented analysis of a corpus of comments on some Latvian sites, yes. Anything in 100+ pages serving as a proof of Kremlin connections with the "hybrid trolls" (gotta love the newspeak)? Not so much. I don't know whether Russians are xenophobic aggressive bastards or knights in shining armor exposing the wrongdoings of others, it's just that claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated.
  - doktrin 10y ago
    > claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated. What? gamergate, /pol, /b, alt-right, the_donald, antifa use online trolling. In context, saying a state actor uses online trolling is an extremely conservative claim. I'm sure there's online trolling in favor of and sponsored by US, Chinese and Macedonian interests (to name a few) too - but Russia's actions are much better documented.
    - rev 10y ago
      Alacritous state actors more nimble at trolling than 4chan? You decide, I don't care. My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved - if you read into "Trolls from Olgino" reports carefully. US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" [0]. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/filling-americas-language-education-potholes/392876/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/fillin...
      - doktrin 10y ago
        > My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved Disagree. There's no such thing as perfect certainty, but the only real question about Russian troll sponsorship is one of scale. https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" This is an interesting observation, but I think you either underestimate American resources, or overestimate the logistics of online influence manipulation campaigns. For illustration : there are about 1m fluent Russian speakers in the US, and about 4m fluent English speakers in Russia. Sure, it's a bigger talent pool : but both countries could rope in bilingual cyber propagandists by the thousands if they felt so inclined.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  > Russia uses online trolling as a tool. So does JTRIG[1][2], and probably many other groups as well. Russia isn't the only suspect for this kind trolling. [1] https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ [2] https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/ https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/
1_2__3 10y ago
Honestly I think appeals to emotion like this have no place in dispassionate conversations about international espionage.
burkaman 10y ago
This is a discussion about the Russian government, it doesn't really have much to do with Russian people in general.
- M_Grey 10y ago
  That sentence is correct however you read it out.
  - noobermin 10y ago
    It is "discrimination" to be suspicious of state actors? Was Snowden performing discrimination in exposing the NSA's spying?
    - M_Grey 10y ago
      Did you reply to the correct person? I never said anything about discrimination, nor did the person I was replying to.
      - Dylan16807 10y ago
        Prejudice and discrimination are close enough to synonyms. You shouldn't be confused by the word swap.
        M_Grey 10y ago
        ...But neither of us said Prejudice either!
        Dylan16807 10y ago
        "It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others." Is that not the comment you were calling correct? That's what "the person [you] replied to" was talking about, that use of the word prejudice.

It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others.

DanBC 10y ago

Russia uses online trolling as a tool. It's widely documented. This use of trolling leaves Russia open to accusations even when they're not involved. For a well documented case: http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-tool-case-latvia-0 http://www.stratcomcoe.org/internet-trolling-hybrid-warfare-...

paradite 10y ago
Widely documented by "The NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence", the most obvious enemy of Russia? Human rights violations in the U.S. are also well documented by China: http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-report-on-terrible-u-s-human-rights-record/ http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/06/26/china-issues-r...
- doktrin 10y ago
  The US does legitimately have an imperfect human rights track record, and most Americans who follow the news would agree (while at the same time being aware of China's own hypocrisy in this matter) Likewise, Russia has a well documented history of sponsoring online propaganda campaigns, and most people who aren't delusional or paid shills would agree. Two negative things about two different countries can in fact both be based in truth. Weird.
  - zigzigzag 10y ago
    paradite is saying it's not well documented. It's poorly documented by people highly incentivised to lie. But hey, if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice.
    - doktrin 10y ago
      > poorly documented Uh huh https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_from_Olgino https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-attacked-with-molotov-cocktails-55900 https://themoscowtimes.com/news/st-petersburg-troll-factory-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-... https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.html https://www.inopressa.ru/article/03Jun2014/buzzfeed/web_rus.... https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > if you already wrote off anyone who disagrees as "delusional or paid shills" then you're too far gone to reason with. Literally nothing anybody ever says can make you think twice. Not true, but it would definitely take more than that hand-wavy uncertainty yarn you're trying to spin
      - seppin 10y ago
        I honestly think HN is the target of some of these trolls as well.
        mistermann 10y ago
        A significant percentage of younger (as well as non-younger for that matter) people have practically no exposure to mainstream media, so naturally one should expect propaganda (from the various players) will be brought to online forums of all kinds.
        seppin 9y ago
        I feel HN has been specifically targeted as a source of above-average discourse, therefore it must be comprised.
      - zigzigzag 10y ago
        Both the NY Times and the Guardian seem to hate Russia and all things Russian. I constantly read things in those publications that are ludicrously biased or simply wrong. They don't count as credible sources to me anymore. And as was already pointed out, you stated that "Russia sponsors" but even the first article states that the alleged project is the work of one guy who apparently has money to burn - not the government.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    It should be obvious that the USA is not a singular political whole. So why do we say "the Russians" and "the Chinese" as though they each form a political whole. I mean, we know the CIA gets up to some pretty nefarious shenanigans, quite possibly without the express approval of The Administration. It just seems like a lot of pots sitting around talking about how black the kettles are. Sure, some kettles are blacker than some pots.
rev 10y ago
Well documented analysis of a corpus of comments on some Latvian sites, yes. Anything in 100+ pages serving as a proof of Kremlin connections with the "hybrid trolls" (gotta love the newspeak)? Not so much. I don't know whether Russians are xenophobic aggressive bastards or knights in shining armor exposing the wrongdoings of others, it's just that claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated.
- doktrin 10y ago
  > claims along the lines like "Russia uses online trolling" seem exaggerated. What? gamergate, /pol, /b, alt-right, the_donald, antifa use online trolling. In context, saying a state actor uses online trolling is an extremely conservative claim. I'm sure there's online trolling in favor of and sponsored by US, Chinese and Macedonian interests (to name a few) too - but Russia's actions are much better documented.
  - rev 10y ago
    Alacritous state actors more nimble at trolling than 4chan? You decide, I don't care. My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved - if you read into "Trolls from Olgino" reports carefully. US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" [0]. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/filling-americas-language-education-potholes/392876/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/05/fillin...
    - doktrin 10y ago
      > My problem is that US, Chinese, Russian and Macedonian sponsorships by state actors are equally unproved Disagree. There's no such thing as perfect certainty, but the only real question about Russian troll sponsorship is one of scale. https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitter-bots/ https://globalvoices.org/2015/04/02/analyzing-kremlin-twitte... > US's sponsorship is objectively less probable: English being lingua franca hampers American wannabe "hybrid trolls" This is an interesting observation, but I think you either underestimate American resources, or overestimate the logistics of online influence manipulation campaigns. For illustration : there are about 1m fluent Russian speakers in the US, and about 4m fluent English speakers in Russia. Sure, it's a bigger talent pool : but both countries could rope in bilingual cyber propagandists by the thousands if they felt so inclined.
pdkl95 10y ago
> Russia uses online trolling as a tool. So does JTRIG[1][2], and probably many other groups as well. Russia isn't the only suspect for this kind trolling. [1] https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/ [2] https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/ https://www.schneier.com/gchq-catalog/

1_2__3 10y ago

Honestly I think appeals to emotion like this have no place in dispassionate conversations about international espionage.

burkaman 10y ago

This is a discussion about the Russian government, it doesn't really have much to do with Russian people in general.

M_Grey 10y ago
That sentence is correct however you read it out.
- noobermin 10y ago
  It is "discrimination" to be suspicious of state actors? Was Snowden performing discrimination in exposing the NSA's spying?
  - M_Grey 10y ago
    Did you reply to the correct person? I never said anything about discrimination, nor did the person I was replying to.
    - Dylan16807 10y ago
      Prejudice and discrimination are close enough to synonyms. You shouldn't be confused by the word swap.
      - M_Grey 10y ago
        ...But neither of us said Prejudice either!
        Dylan16807 10y ago
        "It's the popular thing to assume these days. It's also very insulting to Russian people in my opinion. But I guess it's ok to be prejudice towards some group of people but not others." Is that not the comment you were calling correct? That's what "the person [you] replied to" was talking about, that use of the word prejudice.